In the Janurary issue of Rifle Magazine. Ross Seyfried has written an article entitled "Big Game Hunting Part IV, Bullets That Don't Work. About halfway through the article he wrote "The most cruel hoax ever perpetrated on hunting bullets is the boat-tail design."
Mr. Seyfried goes on in detail about how boat-tail hunting bullets are a fundamentally bad design and ends this part of the article by saying "Thus boat-tails are almost a universally bad idea".
I gather from this part of the article that Mr. Seyfried is referring to Nosler Ballistic Tips, Hornady Interlocks and other similarly constructed bullets.
So gentlemen, who out there is using boat-tailed hunting bullets and what is your opinion?

Thanks
ZM

[This message has been edited by Zeke (edited 12-28-2001).]

I like and use boat tail bullets for hunting deer and game of similar size.They shoot a smidgen flatter and in one or two of my guns shoot a smidgen more accurate.They open up and come apart fairly fast,but this is perfect for deer.A 160 grain Siearra BTSP opens up a lot even out of a 7mm-08 at only 2400 FPS.It becomes VERY impressive on deer when pushed to 2850 FPS from a 7mm Magnum.

I'd hunt any deer or black bear with a boat tail bullet,but I'd take a flat base for elk or anything of that size or bigger.

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I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!

Ross is pretty straight up when it comes to bullets. I myself never had much use for Boat Tails either. I never bought the notion that the give any advantage in the field. Give me a good flat base bullet like the Nosler Partiton, for me they shoot well, perform on game to prefection and I have never notice and disavantage as far a Trajectory is conserned. And if I need more bullet that a Nosler Partition, there are the Fail Safes, TBBC, Swifts, North Fork and Woodleighs.

Seyfried's assesment is mine also. I've shot 250 grain 338 mag BT's, and had them fall apart. Due to the BT portion within, the lower inner-core of the lead has nothing to grip on, and slipped out. This area is tappered, and thus offered no grip for the lead. I'm not sure of a bonded bullet, of course, as they may be better. ~~~Suluuq

I sure am glad that Ross "Told it like it is". I am tired of wishy washy artaicles that always tout the best a product has to offer.

Speer and Sierra BT come apart, there is no doubt about it. Hornadys seem to fair better but nothing is as good as a TBBC or a Swift A-frame.

BT are not a bad idea, just don't use them when yu "need" a bulelt to hold together.

On Deer size animals, they work just fine.

As with most generalizations, this one is only partly correct. With Warren's, Gerards and XBT bullets, there is no disadvantage in terminal ballistics (other than perhaps tumbling.....). With Interlocks -- I doubt you can tell the difference.

That leaves the remchesters and the Sierra's and Speer's. Pretty small sampling. But, Ross got an article out of it...... FWIW, Dutch.

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For evil to prosper, good men must do nothing. (Burke)

I have a lot of respect for Ross Seyfried, and I thought his bullet article was spot-on.

I have had trouble with Speer, Sierra, and hornady boattail bullets coming unglued on even deer-size animals. I don't care for BT bullets.

AD

X Boat Tails don't come apart. I've pulled them out of stuff tougher than animals and they were always together. The cheaper Bt's ie Ballistic Tip, Sierra, and others will if you hit with a very high velocity. They also kill deer size game like lightning.

I think Seyfried, Semel and Blauwkamp all hit the nail on the head. Good shooting.

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Dutch - agree with your opinion of mono-metal bt bullets. But, Seyfried (in the context of the artcle) was speaking about conventional jacketed bullets with a lead core.

Seyfried was, once again, spot-on.

redleg

I like Seyfried's articles, but he is out to lunch here. Perhaps age is taking its toll, or he has to write about something to generate magazine sales.

For years (as in 30 years or more), an old canard has been battered around that "boattail bullets suffer core slip due to their heel design", or some similar sentiment. It makes no sense.

The action of the core and jacket is not like a seed out of a pod. Nothing is being "squished" out. If anything, the impact of the bullet into flesh and the resulting deceleration puts force against the core INTO the jacket. Of course the bullet expands because the lead is relatively soft and flattens and the rotational force and yaw of the bullet then tends to cause expansion. The heel has no effect. The only real issues are jacket/core adhesion, and jacket/core hardness, and point design.

The relationship of the heel design to bullet integrity is "spot-OFF".

This bit of ridiculousness must have started when higher velocity (2800+ fps) cartridges and boatails began to be used extensively, back when bullet design was pretty rudimentary. Drive a easily expanded "soft" bullet at high velocity, then hit something at close range. Big suprise, the cores separates.

Not that separation and fragmentation are a bad thing. It depends what you are hunting and how.

Two years ago I hunted in Africa with the .338 WIn Mag loaded with Hornady 225 gr spirepoints at 2900 fps. Plainsgame (zebra, gemsbok and kudu) shot with this FLATBASE bullet were killed very quickly with one shot each, but in each instance the bullet did not make complete penetration and the core showed separation and fragmentation. No big deal, it was effective.

This year I hunted in Africa with the .300 WSM loaded with Sierra 200 gr spitzer BOATTAILS at 2870 fps. This bullet has a heavier jacket and 3% antimony core. Nearly all bullets completely penetrated. Here's one that was recovered after penetrating 24" of blue wildebeest:

I'd hunt any non-dangerous game with this bullet. It didn't "come apart".

The external ballistic advantages of the boattail are well known. In some rifles they are more accurate than flatbase designs. If they have good terminal performance fo the game hunted and are accurate in your rifle, there's no reason not to use boattails.

This business of boatails being a bad hunting bullet sounds so much like a cantankerousness curmudgeon on a rant and barking up the wrong tree.

[This message has been edited by KuduKing (edited 12-29-2001).]

Redleg, I'm sure he is right inside his frame of reference. That wasn't the point I am trying to make.

If the point is that most flat based conventional bullets hold together at slightly higher speeds than most flat tail conventional bullets, he is right.

The boat tail is not the reason for the difference in performance, though.

Further, we are only talking about a difference in maximum designed impact speed of a few hundred fps. ALL of them fail above 3,000 fps. Boat tails at 2700 fps, the rest at 2850 or 2900.

Once you start looking at bullet manufacturing methods, it becomes obvious that the boat tail has little, if anything to do with the performance difference.

The reason Speer Boat tails are more fragile is because they aren't made with the Hot-Core process. These bullets are more frangible because of the manufacturing process, not because of the boat tail. The Nosler ballistic tip has a boat tail, the Partition does not. Again, the boat-tail is not related to the difference in performance.

Which leaves Sierra's, in the component market, and they don't bond, interlock, coreloc or anything. They only vary the jacket thickness, from what I understand. Of course, the thicker the jacket, the tougher the bullet. It so happens that their pro-hunters have a flat base and a thick jacket. Again, the boat tail is not related to the performance. If they built their bullets like the Scirocco, wouldn't be a problem. Of course, they wouldn't reach a .5 m.o.a. accuracy standard, either.

The problem is not that the boat-tail creates the problem. The problem is that the designers set the performance parameter of the bullet at lower impact speeds. If someone is building a boat tail, it is "intended" to go for 250 yards before impacting. Thus, thinner, more uniform (more accurate) jackets are desirable, as are boat tails, to increase accuracy and reduce drop and drift.

Personally, I have a problem with that sort of thinking. When i am hunting, I usually have elk, deer, bear and cougar tags in my pocket, and a shot may range from 30 yard shots on an 800 lb bull elk, to a 300 yard shot on a 125 lb forkhorn whitetail. I want something that does it all. JMO, Dutch.

Gentlemen:
When it comes to hunting bullets, Ross is 100% spot on!!
George

The way I envision it is that as the bullet penetrates and mushrooms, the lead core, being heavier,(greater inertia) and softer starts to move foreward out of the lighter jacket thats trying to decellerate more quickly. With a square heel bullet, the core and jacket maintain some contact on the sides, but the boattail loses all contact at the rear as soon as that taper within a taper starts to move. If there is a partition, bonding or a locking groove or ridge, the core tends to remain in the jacket.
Of course, all that happens within a few inches of travel after impact.
Down range, if the difference between the trajectories of the two types of bullet means a hit or a miss, you're cutting it mighty close.
Seyfried is usually right. Whether we like it or not.

Seyfried is Seyfried, whether we like it or not. He's an entertaining writer and experienced hunter, but he has his prejudices. And I don't mean that in a negative sense.

But anyone who has followed him over the years knows that he is prejudiced towards a) big bores, and b) heavy super-penetrating bullets. He is an Elmer Keith disciple. He is an advocate of the .338 rifle bore for everything non-dangerous (although in recent years he's mellowed somewhat). In one article he implied that a hunter NEEDS a Nosler Partition to hunt deer and a Winchester Failsafe to hunt elk.

The experience of legions of hunters who successfully pursue game contrary to this shop-worn school of advice should give the thoughtful individual pause. As does the experience of the Jack O'Connors of this world who advocate very different views on bullet selection, and take game successfully, over and over.

I believe we are talking about non-dangerous game here, just to limit the discussion to the least possible controversy.

For example, the Nosler Ballistic Tip, a boattail design, is a very effective hunting bulllet - - on deer. Even Seyfried admitted in print that the .338 200 gr Ballistic Tip, a heavier and more substantial bullet, was able to do the job on elk. In the same comments he derided Nosler for making such a bullet which competed directly with his beloved Partition!

As for trajectory differences between flatbase and boattails, they may be small up to 300 yards, but the higher retained velocity and energy of the boattail is significant, especially past 300 yards.

Of course none of these facts will have the slightest effect on the amen chorus of Elmer Keith faithful who make up a large number of the fine folks that post here. No one likes to have long-held beliefs that border on religion proved falacious. They will continue to hunt with flatbase bullets secure in their beliefs. Which in America is permitted.

The rest of us infidels will merrily hunt with boattails and wonder what all the fuss is about.

www.rifleshooter.com

KuduKing,

How about taking a picture of that bullet from a different angle or something. You are getting some mileage out of that same picture.

[This message has been edited by Bill (edited 12-29-2001).]

KudaKing... Try this...
Imagine inserting a cone within another cone, and a cylinder within another cylinder. The cone has less area to grip, and is tapered, so it will release faster and easier. Common sense tells us this, excusing the mechanics of it.
Now, relate that to a boattail design(lead/jacket), and you'll understand what the fuss ia about. Disregard it, it's your choice, but facts are facts, boattails can and do lose fall apart.
Now, if said boattial disaster kills the intended game, then no problem, as dead is dead, but in some case, which Seyfried was refering to, a boattail has no place in most big game/dangerous game situations. ~~~Suluuq

KuduKing;
"But anyone who has followed him over the years knows that he is prejudiced towards a) big bores, and b) heavy super-penetrating bullets. He is an Elmer Keith disciple."

No wonder he is such a good writer and agrees with me so often. If 130 grains is good, isn't 250 grains better? Of course it is! Ever whack a prairie dog with a 416 Rem Mag? Can you say ssssatisfying?

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If Elmer didn't say it, it probably ain't true.

I think this is a good time to stress the fact that all the reasons why boat tails are out of favour with some shooters have to do with the way they are manufactured (jacketed lead). Monometal bullets do not have these disadvantages and a monometal boat tail will outperform a monometal flat base downrange every time.

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Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

Seems to me, whether he's right or wrong, Mr. Seyfried is laughing all the way to the bank!

Both KuduKing and Dutch made excellent points, even though they are arguing different sides of the question. In my own testing I have never seen a non-bonded lead-core boat-tail bullet emerge from the test medium with a core intact. It always seems to feed out and erode faster than in a flat base design and is loose in the jacket. Now I feel that in 90%+ of instances this does not matter, particularly on animals smaller than 300 lbs., unless you are attempting a shot through the hip bones and rumen into the thorax. Usually the jacket isn't scraped off. But if it gets scraped away or if the bullet strikes a hard surface obliquely then the core will be ejected and that bullet is pretty much done. It stops very quickly. I've seen of 7 mm Ballistic Tips go to bits and squirt their cores out like toothpaste from an almost perfectly intact jacket under such circumstances. Having said that, I love boat-tails. There is no question but that they add something to long range ballistics. The unfortunate thing about Sierra Game King SBTs is that they have such heavy jackets and hard alloy cores that they won't even expand at velocities below 2100 - 2200 fps and you end up exactly where you were with your slighty less streamlined flat base bullet that works at 1900 - 2000 fps. They are fine at 200 to 300 yards which is where most people use them, but is that why you loaded a Sierra Game King SBT? For KuduKing maybe so, because its a great bullet within his constraints. The big caliber Nosler Ballistic Tips are great, I think Sciroccos will turn out well, and any of the monolithics are of course the perfect situation for a BT. No regrets.

I have a bunch of Nosler solidbase 6.5/120's I've recovered, not a one has slipped it's core. Many more exited, and I'd bet they didnt either. Shot out of a 264 mag, 6.5/284 or 6.5 Gibbs from 3250-3450 fps. I think the solid base's boattail is much less severe then a sierra's, but even so, I must be doing something wrong to have the luck I do with them huh?

I also remember an article by Ross right after the Barnes X came out.
He was discussing {in an article} Guns and Ammo I bekeive, all the so called super premiums available at that time. He said the Barnes X appeared to be the very best out there. He stated that his bottom line performance parameter was the Nosler Partition. Granted he was talking about larger than deer size game. He mat have changred his mind as I have seen Mr. Atkinson staste Ross thought the Fail Safe was better. The Failsafe wasn't available at this time. This article was one of the reasons, I started using the X Bullet. I was using Partitions ath the time amd the X seemed to be more of what I was shooting the Partition for.
I also noticed that on deer sized game with the partition and X and hardly ever got "in there tracks kills". Granted I didn't lose any, but they sure didn't go down like the deer I had shot with Ballistic Tips.
I have read here and other Forums how terrible a bullet the Ballistic Tip is.
When I see a failure I will quit using it.
They seem to be the best thing out there for deer.
For larger than deer I would shoot the Partition or X. I prefer the X.
Also, don't you hate it whwn Mr. Hoffman posts. It's usually the end of the discussion!

I think everyone has a preference as to what they want a bullet to do. I am also a Seyfried "groupie" if you will, but it is simply because I have had a few failures with conventional bullets. You couldn't run fast enough to give me a non-premium bullet these days, I don't care how fast they kill.
Just last month a 35yd shot on a huge mule deer educated me all over again on why I don't like boattails or common tinfoil jacketed bullets. To each his own. I want a bullet I KNOW will penetrate to the vitals from ALL angles and from ALL ranges.

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 12-30-2001).]

I agree, not all boattail bullets are created equal. The standard 'old style' lead/jacket boattials lose their cores easily, whereas monometal and those that are created like a flat-base internally(solid base BT, for example) hold together better. Common sense should dictate what game you should shoot, as all bullets are designed to preform at their best with certain size animals. ~~~Suluuq

Yes and he thinks I should sight my rifle in at 200 yards because he can't manage to hold spot on at 250. He thinks everybody holds high for game farther away than 200 yards.

Its a known fact most people can't judge distances correctly further out it gets, and likely will over compensate. Some will even under compensate. The smarter hunters will get in closer and for-go this mis-judgement. ~~~Suluuq

I think Ross is right on with the average reloading bullets we use in the US.
The "Super bullets" (monometal,bonded,partition type) are a different animal as we all know.I have not had good luck with the boat tail design.

While I am a fan of Ross Seyfried, I must also admit to being a fan of Sierra boat tail projectiles; at least within my application.

I have taken numerous NA game up to elk size without any problems whatsoever using them. I use a .375 H&H and my experience may be a direct result of the moderate velocities exhibited by this cartridge.

The 300 grain pill is my preference for game hunting while I like the 250 grain bomb for varmint shooting and other long range games. I really believe the boat tail design has benefit at extended distances. This may be nothing more than a physiological factor, but for me it exists.

If I were going after big bear or other game where I could not be as selective of my shot placement or if the target species may possibly dine upon yours truly, I would certainly select a specialty bullet such as a Woodleigh or GS.

I don't think sweeping generalisations, either positive or negative, are applicable when there are so many other variables that affect terminal performance of any given bullet design.

Regards,

~Holmes

As long as the bullet gets deep enough penetration I don't care if the core separates. Sierra's kill quickly on broadside rib shots because they are designed to over expand. Back in the 60's and early 70's we all wanted bullets that would stay in the animal so as to utilize the energy totally. Under the hide on the far side was the idea of perfection. Sierra stuck to this premise with it's deer bullets. Avoid onside hits on large bone though.

I have used both types and the animals never have been able to tell the difference! I have had complete penetration with Sierra 140gr. Gamekings on a mule deer at a little over a hundred yards. The damage inside was impressive. Dead is dead and if you are using a bullet that works, then what more do you expect? I like boat tails and will continue to use them, but I also use bullets designed for the game being hunted. Some of you Elmer Keith types need to look at the performance of the Nosler Ballistic Tip on Elk in the Heavier calibers. My .338 Win Mag shoots them well and if you place your shot nothing works any better.

SEYFRIED, you gotta love him. I've been reading these guys for 40 years and I doubt that any writer has had the breath of experience as Seyfried. He expresses such a love and interest in all manner of firearms. He can write about muzzleloading handguns, big bore SA's, damascus shotguns, rook rifles, nitro express rifles and 7mm wizbangs. His expertise includes the .45acp, he was both US and International IPSC champion, guided in Africa with the .416 Rem for several years, takes big game, including Cape Buf, with a 45 colt, or .475 Linebaugh and seems to be a genuine student of all of it. His reloading expertise is awesome. No writer has had a bigger impact on my overall love of guns and hunting than this guy. I don't always agree, but he sure has my admiration. I've re-read his brown bear saga a dozen times.