DKing: I know this is off topic but how did you like shooting "F" class that the FCNC held at Camp Butner. I really had a great time, and certainly looking forward to next year. The chest cavity of an elk would look huge compared the X ring on that 300 yard target when you are shooting at the 600 yard line wouldn't it.

Back on topic, JoelM you have been given some very good advise overall. Seriously the more you shot at 400 to 500 yard seems the shorter distance it seems. I agree with the way DKing sets up his equipment for long range work. Mine are set up the same way right down to the rings and bases. I bet one of mine is chambered for the same caliber as DKing's. Again above all shot a LOT with the rifle and load you are going to use. Don't just take a shot at that range. Take it because you KNOW you can make it, just like Mark Grabowski stated. Five years ago I thought 200 yards was a long shot. Then I started hanging around the high power crowd and conventional long range crowd and I was hooked. Hanging around that bunch I learned what shooting is. And what I learned on the range in competition has served me very well in hunting.

RiverRat

RiverRat

You have me at a bit of disadvantage just now. I really liked the match and that ~3" "X" was a bit of a challenge at 600 yards. I did manage to get a first round sighter "X" on one relay though and stuffed another "Wooden Dollar" into my pocket (I believe I treasure those more than anything else!).

Sorry for the off topic meander.

AnotherAZWriter


It's good to know someone's keeping tabs on me... I might run amok and post something completely idiotic without a critical eye observing. Thanks for the heads-up and review, I sincerely appreciate it.

The charts are more for example than anything else... I was trying to keep the 100 yard data at 3.0" above POA but didn't want to booger around too much with the range increment so 260 became the ~zero. JoelM posted "With my rifle sighted at 3" high at 100yds, I have to hold over an elks back at roughly 2.5ft to hit him at 500yds." so I used the roughly 3" at 100. I figure folks are bound to stay with a system that works even when venturing into the unknown... I would imagine that he'd recheck his rifle at altitude (9000 ASL) at 100 yards and reset to ~3" high in his/the referenced manner.




JoelM

Rifle, scope, rings and stuff.. I'm a klutz and I know but I also prepare for the worse so I opt for the tough stuff. I use Remington actions on custom built rifles, big fat barrels, Badger Ordnance rings and bases, Harris bipods, Leupold Long Range scopes with MK4 turrets (MK4 now) or Nikon tactical scopes. The rifles are accurate and tough, they don't suffer from being knocked off zero or worries of scratches and dings...they're dependable precision tools. I get MilDot reticles and so do most of the folks I shoot with...it's a lot easier to call shots and corrections/hold-offs with a calibrated reticle. My rifles are heavy by some folks standards but the added weight is even payment for the insurance they provide in durability, ~14lbs all setup and ready to shoot.

Ropes, I not only hate road hunters, but I'm somewhat irritated by hunters who buzz about all day long on their 4-Wheelers. I may buy one myself for hauling game out and/or going in and out but I don't think during season they should be used for anything else. I also think that you mean slob hunters when you say lazy hunters and we can definitely agree there. As far as high-fences I'll have to agree with a 600 acre site not being very sporting. I would think for a high-fenced area to be real hunting it would have to be something like encircle something like 10 times the normal range of the species hunted maybe then it's OK. But just because at the moment I may not be ready to climb the Chugach range to hunt wild goats doesn't mean I can't enjoy hunting. Yes we should all be in better shape but just because we're not able to run a 10K race on any given day doesn't mean we can't hunt.
Almost any animal in the world can be sucessfully hunted by figuring out where they eat and where they sleep and then waiting somewhere in between. Ambush hunting is a tactic dating back millions of years since even animals do it. Pehaps those who prefer to stalk their game can be proud of their superior skills. Ambush hunters will have to be satisfied with their greater success rate........

But hey, not many of us are professional writers or diplomats so don't worry too much if your opinions don't please everyone, sometimes you may be right.......DJ

I do not mean to offend anyone, I think I said that once before. They are my opinions and like @ssholes we all have one.

Just to clarify things:

Sitting is something people do - my dad for one. I should have said sitting over feeders.

Four wheelers - I was referring to the morons who road hunt not those of you who ride to your stand.

My farther in law fills his tags every year walking in the hardwoods of Texas, anyone with the desire can do the same. Of course if you can not make the long walks you do not fall into this category.

Fenced hunting is like shooting a beef cow, if you enjoy calling it hunting good for you - I will never consider you a hunter nor will I ever hunt fenced property I would rather quit. The exception I suppose being the huge concessions in Africa, but there is a 600 acre high fenced property a few miles from where I live and that is not hunting sorry, if you think so we probably have no point in talking further.

All change isn�t good - I enjoy using the skills I have gathered from a lifetime in the outdoors. I also have a precision rifle and can make long shots, But in my opinion people are using them to make up for a lack of hunting ability. Shooting is shooting hunting is hunting.

Sorry if I do not come of as nice, I actually am. But I have strong opinions and will state them here or in person. I don�t mean to hurt anyone�s feelings or offend anyone by stating them.

Again I am sorry if you got offended it was not my intent,

John

the caliber isn't is as important as the competence of the
guy using it

Ropes,

Thanks for the clarification.

A point for you to consider is that some hunters now a days, lack someone to show them or instruct them in the ways of the woods, so they learn to apply what abilities they have to the situation at hand and admittedly using long range rifles and marksmanship probably makes up for thier lack of woodsmanship.

I imagine that you, me and a lot of people on this board grew up, roaming the woods, plains, velds, mountains, deserts etc and pretty well know the area and could walk thru it in a blinding snow/rain storm or in the dark and have a very good idea of where you are. Same applies for someone living in a city or small town.

We have had years to gain our ability, which to us is second nature....well, some of our fellow hunters never had the opportunity and 2 weeks every year isn't going to give them the ability and the confidence that we developed over years with an experienced hand guiding us in our developmental years.

It's not an excuse, nor should it be taken as one, but for some there just isn't the time available within thier chosen lifestyle and level of responsibilities to allow them to attain or reach the level we are at.

As far as fenced hunting, don't care for it, nor will I ever do it, but I won't deprive someone of thier livelyhood, just because I don't like it.

No offense intended from this quarter, I just try and see both sides of a situation.

Interesting the different viewpoints is it not and what constitutes hunting and what is not based upon a persons opinion and beliefs.

My dad has for as long as I can remember sat on a rock in a prime spot and waited for the deer/elk to come to him, once he has located a prime spot and it doesn't matter to him if the animal is at 29 yards or 500 yards and he hasn't failed in taking a nice deer/elk or lost an animal in over 50 years and save for a few has only fired 1 shot.

He thinks stalking is a waste of time since it is his belief that anyone with observation skills and patience and ability with a rifle will harvest a quality animal just as quickly as someone who is stalking and wandering the woods and fields. It is his opinion and was my grandfathers and wouldn't be surprised if it was my great grandfathers opinion as well and who am I to sit in judgement and say they were wrong?

Now I generally hunt with my dad and so a major portion of my instruction is in the sit and wait style of hunting, but I can and do stalk game as well and I am quite good at it and have slithered my way thru waist deep snow to close the range a time or two, but I also am quite capable of harvesting game on the far side of 500 yards, but , to do that I shoot several thousand rounds a year and take other measures to mitigate any variables.

Now is long range hunting, merely shooting? last time I checked, you just can't go out and plunk yourself down and find a prime spot to hunt, without doing some leg work, you need to know your anatomy to get a quick kill and you need both the equipment and trigger time to develope the necessary skills needed to be successfull.

It may not be "YOUR" preferred method of hunting and I know hunters who believe that the only way of hunting that should be allowed is with Flintlock Muzzleloaders, not with cartridge guns of any sort, so it comes down to preference and perception and I for one will not judge someones perferred method of hunting provided they do it in a safe and ethical and legal fashion. (No hunting/shooting from vehicles unless by permit, indescriminate wounding of game or wastage etc)

One must accept that hunting is an evolving sport and we won't always like the changes, but hey that's life for you.

You remind me of my friend who wanted so badly to improve his golf game; he frequents the golf shops looking for new and better equipment.

Seriously, your 30-06 needs to be upgraded to whatever you feel comfortable with. But remember, nothing replaces practice and practice under different conditions for the 400-500 yard range.

While you are spending your money, also pick up a Leica range finder if you don�t already have one. A high quality long range scope will also help as well.

Good luck.

Danny Boy

I guess we hunt in different parts of the world.. Where I grw up in Montana we stalked deer, elk and beer and used a backpack for a rest. No one who actually got off the road would carry a sandbag because of the weight.

To many hunter these days are trying to make up for lack of bush skills with 500 yard shoots. Most people can not make a one shot kill from that far. The longest shot I have ever taken was around 200 yards on an antelope when I was a kid, the last in Nevada was around 50 yards after a 1/2 mile crawl through the sage and rocks. It is one of my most memorable hunts of my life. The fact that is was the last I made with my father just makes it all the better.

I have never had to use a follow up shot on an animal and I have shot my fair share of them. I prefer fair chase hunts and enjoy the stalk, sure some have slipped away but it is about the hunt and not the kill for me.

I hate four wheelers, high fences, and lazy hunters and tree stands. If you enjoy any of them have fun I would rather have colon cancer.

We can agree to disagree

See you in the woods

I use the Leupold Long Range (LR) (which are now MK4s) models primarily in 3.5x10x40 with the M1 MK4 turrets. I also have a few 6.5 x 20 Leupold LR M1, two Leupold 3.5x10x40 LRM3, a Nikon Tactical 2.4x10x44 and a Horus Vision as a tester (H2 type reticle). I have Badger Ordnance rings and bases on everything with the larger #8 screws and some are the clip-slot insert type.

Ropes, I would have to disagree. If you have a Sandbag you are a smart, well prepared hunter.........DJ

I personally don't think much of a guy who would attempt a shot at an unwounded animal at a distance over 400 yds. Too much of a chance to wound. Are you that intent on killing? Or is it bragging?

My hunting pardner shoots a 300Weatherby and has killed 3 nice bulls over the years, all in the 400yd range (longest one was at 480yds, lazered rangefinder w/180 partitions). I'm going with him next year, its a private ranch in Colorado. He said to start practicing up to 500yds, we will be shooting across a bowl at 9000ft elev.There is no way to get closer he advised.

I tried out some 180 Partitions in my '06 on Christmas eve (4000ft elev) at some cardboard placed at 400yds and 500yds. Took my quad along just to go check my targets! With my rifle sighted at 3" high at 100yds, I have to hold over an elks back at roughly 2.5ft to hit him at 500yds. I can place most of my shots in a 2ft circle (mostly at the bottom) but I'm going to need more practice. My friend said my '06 will kill a bull as long as its standing broadside. Should I buy a new gun? Maybe a 300 Weatherby? I have time and figured now is the time to get ready. I am using a bi-pod. I have shot my friend's Weatherby and it does recoil more but I only had to hold over 1ft, it really shoots flatter!

JoelM

To be honest I don't think 99% of shooters should ever be taking shots on non-wounded game at such ranges (400yds or more as you mention). Few shooters can make them reliably and factors such as wind drift, the animal taking a step as the shot goes off, etc really begin to come into play. Yes it can be done with considerable practice, but I don't think most sportsmen under field conditions can do it reliably enough to call it wise. Just my humble opinion...

Thats the kind of info I'm looking for. We will be on a ridgeline and the ranges have been lazered between 400 and around 480yds I think. We will be waiting and glassing until the animals show then make our shot. I should mention my friend has been hunting Colorado for about 20yrs and is experienced. He has several big mulies to his credit and went to Africa last year. I just wanted some other opinions and figured it was time to move up from my '06 especially for Colorado. The Nosler load manuals have some good articles on the 300Wtby btw. I think I'll buy a Leupold 3.5-10 with the Boone & Crockett reticle too.

The 30-378 and 300RUM sound tempting too but I'm not sure of the recoil? How much more will these kick? I handload so cost of ammo is not an issue.

JoelM

The group I'm going with has hunted this ranch for the last 10years. My friend has killed his 3 big bulls on this hillside which is in a big high bowl. Its full of thick brush so there is no way to get closer. After it snows, the bulls are more visible (I've seen pictures of it). My friend never killed any big bulls on this ranch until he started practicing at long range just for this area. The bulls are there because its rough and steep, other guests on the ranch won't hunt this area. There are some big mulies hanging around up there too I'm told! I told my friend about this post and he laughed when he read it. You have to be there to understand it he said.

Thanks,

JoelM

What I meant is there is no way to stalk these animals if you are on the same hillside. The brush is thick and the animals hear you coming. My friend said we will park our quads at the top and then go down in and quarter the elk and then pack em to the top. One year they were able to winch out a cow elk with the winch on their quad.

I'm thinking of the 338RUM also, I'm just wondering what make of rifle. I've heard good things on the Weatherby Accumark. As for a custom rifle, it will take too long I'm told(1 to 2yrs). I would like to start practicing within a month or two. I may just go the Sportsmen's Warehouse to check out whats on sale!

JoelM

For the biggest punch on any game at long range:

.50 BMG

Then the super .338's:
.338 Lapua
.338 RUM
.338-378
.340 Weatherby
.338 Lazzeroni

The next step down the ladder:
.300-378
.300 RUM
.300 Weatherby

The larger and heavier bullets will provide the biggest punch and penetration on anything at long range. But for small targets (humans, deer, antelope, caribou, etc., smaller calibers should do fine. For example, the .308, .300WM, and even the .30-06 can be used as sniper cartridges. If you want to hit a hard target at long range, then the .50 is king, followed by the .33's for slightly softer or smaller targets regardless of kind, and finally the .30's.

Hi Joel.

My first question is: if the elk are in a place where "there is NO WAY to get to them", then what do you do when you shoot one? Leave it?

I think I can picture what you are saying, but the BEST advice I will give you is this; given the scenario, you'd be better off posting your question over at longrangehunting.com as those hunters are very much into shooting long range on a regular basis, and that seems to be the goal.

It is merely a difference of opinions and I guess, to some degree, a difference in what is considered an 'ethical' shot.

I am indifferent either way. I would never tell another hunter what he should or shouldn't do as I have not been in his/her shoes.

Regardless, I'd get something with a tad bit more umph to it. I personally have a 300 RUM and shoot 200 Accubonds over Re25 and it is a very accurate load. It also has a 28" custom barrel too though, and a muzzlebreak, and a decelerator pad. It shoots very comfortably.

But, if I were in your shoes, I might even go for a 338 RUM since you may have a 500 yard shot. It may be more than you NEED, but it's nice to have a really big bullet at that range. (another humble opinion).

It is also my Opinion that you will increase you accuracy with a customized rifle. There are plenty of factory rifles out there that are indeed very accurate, but I believe a custom handlapped barrel can increase your accuracy potential by a substantial margin.

BUT FOR GOD'S SAKES, DON'T TAKE A DAMN .243!!