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Gentlemen, I have received this from the Hunt Report, and thought it might be of interest to some of you. The Hunting Report just received word of the following development and we
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| one of us |
As a booking agent, I am seriously thinking about dropping all North American outfitters..and thats a shame, but everytime something goes wrong, you can be held resposible and you have no control...It allways boils down the the bottom line, and thats no kill, the rest is bunk, if you kill your happy, if not all kinds of stuff comes into play....And the game situation on this continent is at its worst...success rates are very low in all the Northern Pacific states...Idaho is 11% on guided hunts state wide. 9% on unguided hunts according to a game warden here....Colorado and Montana about the same I suspect.. Our outfitters are not under any controls, other than on paper, thats the American way, and like all businesses they are going under right and left like dominoes, it is happening in every industry and now its starting in Africa I fear.....they don't charge enough to survive and if they did they wouldn't get any clients... It just may be time for all us old booking agents to retire and let the hunting community do it on there own. Booking hunts for high fence ranches never gets me any complaints, ain't that something..fair chase does... Hunter condition is the biggest problem, but how many hunters admit that was the problem... I don't know where it will all end in these days of law suits for any reason, but you the public will be the ones paying a dear price I fear...and I hate that, but it may be a self inflicted wound to some degree. Like most things in this country, an era is comming to an end, the lawyers are killing all that is sacred and I am not sure that hunt reports are anything more that lynch mobs, I don't know, there has to be a fair means of judgment and something not so one sided, things are seldom what they appear to be... I don't know these guys being investigated but I would suspect they didn't choose to be criminal, but I don't really know... Just conversation for what its worth to each of you, and I don't claim any particular accuracy to the above statments..thats just the way it seems today...I have had a couple of complaints this year and it is the first in 15 years and its gnawing on me, as I had no control over it. | |||
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I find it difficult to believe that I am agreeing with Atkinson on anything, but he is unfortunately correct. Guided hunting in North America going downhill fast. The basic problem is that the hunting season is short here, and the American standard of living is high. The bag limits are also low, and the game isn't really managed. If everyone owns the game, then no one owns it, and no gives a rats ass other than to hunt it. Leaving it up to a state bureaucracy is no more effective in this field than any other. So the oufitter/guide that thinks he can do this for 3 months a year (maybe), as his only real job all year, and make money at it, is fooling himself. It's really a part-time gig. But what kind of individual has a job that lets him go guiding 3-4 months a year (when school's in session). So he charges a high fee for all the work involved in getting to where the game is (or MIGHT be). Who wants to pay $6000+ and airfare and all the other incidentals to hunt 1 maybe 2 animals with a 50% or lower success rate? And put up with the typical western outfitter/guide attitude? The same $6000 plus airfare and all the other incidentals gets you a really nice week or so in Africa hunting 5 or 6 plains animals with a 100% success rate that you will kill 5 or 6 animals (maybe not all your choices tho). And your ass is kissed from the moment you step on SAA until your PH drops you off at the airport. Let's face it, hunting these days for most everyone is ENTERTAINMENT. It's not a necessary for your survival. So people who have the $$$$ to make guided hunts, by and large, put a premium on their TIME, and don't wanna be abused, hassled, annoyed or UNSUCCESSFUL. They wanna have a good time. Killing the animal is a large part of that good time. Sure hunting is luck, that's part of the allure. It should also, for my own satisfaction, involve some real effort and work on my part. As a result, the "local" (whatever that is) deer hunt is pretty cheap and a few days away from home hunting is a real pleasant decompressor. No deer is not such a big deal. But for most of us, it's alot harder to justify spending a week to 10 days or more and $8000+ hunting, when you come home empty-handed. The wife especially does not approve of the "wasted" funds. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by KuduKing: [B]I find it difficult to believe that I am agreeing with Atkinson on anything, but he is unfortunately correct. Guided hunting in North America going downhill fast. [QUOTE] North America or just the U.S ??? Daryl | |||
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| <Bill> |
Daryl, I can't speak for the other two guys but I have heard a lot of horror stories about caribou hunts in Canada. These were from guys I know personally and trust thier opinion. I don't see myself hunting with an outfitter in the US or Canada anytime soon. I will stock with Africa and South America. Reguards ------------------ | ||
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| Moderator |
There are still a number of good outfitters in business but they have a loyal and dedicated list of repeat clients that keep them afloat. Many operate exclusively on private land where they can attempt to manage the game, and the results show this. Costs are quite high, that's the downside. But, the upside is that you get a good hunt, have an excellent chance to take your game and trophy quality is usually much better than public land. | |||
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Bill, I have heard some horror stories about caribou hunts in Canada as well. I also know where you can get a "guaranteed" disaster deer hunt, moose hunt, elk hunt and so on, in Canada. I really think it is a shame to write off hunting in North America because of a couple of shitty caribou hunts (in Quebec no doubt.) (Quebec does have excellent caribou hunts with the right outfitters) There is some excellent hunting opportunities to be had in Canada. The N.W.T, Northern B.C, Yukon have changed a little but not a whole lot. The quality of hunting in these areas is as good as it has ever been. It is more expensive, though. There are outfitters here that have been in business for 20-30 years. There are bandits in the business here too, so you got to do your homework and find a reputable outfitter. If N.American game is not your thing then fine, but don't miss out on some excellent hunting opportunities because of a couple of goof balls that are in the business. The Outfitting/Guiding is no different than any other business. You got to be careful who you are giving your money to. I can tell you from personal experience that there is some very good hunting that doesn't get any better, to be had in Canada. I here some tales of woe but I see a lot more lucky b@st@rds go home with what they came here for. I do not take any offence to what you or anyone here has said about the industry. Some of it is unfortunately very true. I just hate to see fellow hunters miss out on the quality hunts that are available in North America. There are plenty of them. Daryl | |||
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| <Bill> |
Daryl, I understand what you are saying. I just don't have the funds to take a chance on some of these hunts out there. It seems about half the people I know get burned. That said, I also know two guys who got burned on Cabela's hunts. One didn't get a shot (call it hunting not finding) and the other had been completely misrepresented. Cabela's was made aware of this and sent both of these guys on a free hunt with a differnet outfitter the next year. They can afford to do this whereas the little guys cannot. I guess if and when I book my Mountain goat hunt in a few years I will give them a call. Good hunting Bill ------------------ [This message has been edited by Bill (edited 11-18-2001).] | ||
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Bill, There is a joke among fellow guides that work for outfitters. How can you tell when an outfitter is lying to you?
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| Moderator |
You will NEVER see a gun writer apologize for promoting a 'bad' outfitter simply because he doesn't want to poison the well from which all free hunts flow. This may sound cynical, but they're all whores, and I won't trust their word on any outfitter. George ------------------ | |||
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I quit using outfitters in North America a long time ago, except when they are required. I have been sorely disappointed by most outfitters I've used in North America. This includes 7 Canadian hunts. The only Canadian hunt I was actually pleased with 100% was unsuccessful. Daryl: I have not hunted Yukon, so I have no comment for that province; however, I have hunted Alberta, B.C., Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec. Ray: I don't see how most of these outfitters can stay in business either. I've taken several friends hunting who were very disappointed with outfitters. My concensus is that most of these guys are severely out of shape and don't practice shooting at all. How are you supposed to make people happy that can't get to the game, and can't shoot it if they're lucky enough to see it? ------------------ | |||
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I just got back from guided hunt in central Montana for Mule Deer and Antelope. I was very pleased with the service. This is a family owned business with access to private land owned by the family, private land owned by the guides, and leased land. The owners are guides and the other guides are locals that either own land in the area or grew up there. They know the area and really work hard to put you on game. NO sitting around with crowd - they hunt. The room , food , equipment, guides, and game were all excelent. Most of the folks in camp were repeat customers - some on there sixth trip. I was treated like a member of the family. Maybe I got lucky or maybe my expectations were low, but I'm very happy with the whole deal. I shot a 22" 3X3 on the second day. The back times were tall but did not fork. This was one of the smaller racks in camp. It was my choice to shoot or wait. We had a very exciting stalk (long) and I took the shot. I did see a 27" 5X5 come into camp and 6X6 Whitetail. Every one in camp scored. I'm very pleased and will provide the name of the outfitter if wanted. I plan to return one day and take my kids. I know this sounds like a commercial, but there is absolutely nothing in this for me. email to | |||
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Outfitters depend on weather, it they don't get it then elk hunting for instance goes to pot, and client scream no elk, elk are herd animals and the miagrate, the weather moves them....How many hunters who hire a guide can drop off into a black hole in the Salmon Wilderness and bush up the big bulls and then walk out on their own...So they write this poor outfitter up on the hunt report or someplace like that and he is guilty without a trial, his reputation is ruined....The long term result created is all the legitamate outfitters get put out of business by the report, right or wrong and the crooks just keep on a booking...It worrys me, its akin to the Govt. Peter Principle and you, the American hunter suffer... Another point I see, is an outfitter can work his butt into the dirt trying to get your game, but fails, today these "hunters" file law suits on this man, and right or wrong, he will have to hire a lawyer and the cost of the lawyer is as much as the hunt..Frivalous law suits suck, on both sides, and I mean you guys are paying the price, and innocent people are suffering the results while our legal profession gets fatter every day..It disgust me, and some of these same folks are running our country. Now, I know a lot of decent good lawyers, well a few anyway These are some things that I thought should be brought to light for your own judgment and I know I am not going to cure the worlds problems on this forum... ------------------ | |||
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Ray, I hear ya, but there is another side to this equation, at least here in Idaho. For a lot of years, the outfitters association has pretty much gotten the seasons and regulations they demanded, and F&G has gone along with it, as they know on which side their bread is buttered. As a direct result, here in Idaho, some of the worst bull/cow ratio's are in the heavily outfitted wilderness units, and it is going to get worse. But, the outfitters, even though the elk aren't there, keep booking, since they have the rights to the camps, and the time to "entertain" some dudes. If the mine is played out, you can't keep selling ore. Then, the outfitters pushed for "outfitter tags" in draw only units, so the average Joe now has to put in for a draw, but if you are an outfitter, you can get a trophy tag in the choicest units and sell it to the highest bidder. I know all the economic arguments, etc, etc, but it ain't right. It sucks, it's against every Western land-use doctrine out there, and it will (is) going to bite the outfitters in the be-hind. Then again, it sounds like it already is. JMO, Dutch. | |||
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Ray, you are right on the money! The outfitter that I work for normally is 100% on moose hunts and 90% to 100 % on caribou. We always kill good bulls. Often book animals. It has been that way for years. This last season was unusually warm and we has to work extra hard to get any bull. We killed some real good bulls none the less. On what is usually the best time slot for moose 4 hunters out of 6 went home without a moose. They were pretty sour and badmouthed the operation to the hunters coming in on the next plane. The weather cooled off a bit and hunting was good again. I realize that when a guy pays $10,000 U.S for a hunt he damn well wants to get something. But a lot of hunters are forgetting about the experience. They get pissed when they don't see game or the weather gets bad and complain that " this is a pretty expensive nature hike" A sheep hunter that I guided this fall would complain about crossing a river on horses. He would complain " The brochure did not say anything about having to cross any river." He often would say that if something happened to him, "that his wife would own this outfitting concession. The river was f*ck all. I would cross it with my kids. Naturally everyone expects game when they go hunting especially when they pay big money for it. But for f*ck sakes it is still hunting. Do your homework! Book with an Outfitter with a good reputation and track record. There still isn't any guarantees. If that is to difficult for a "hunter" to handle, then he should take up golf or bowling. Daryl | |||
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Moderator |
Jeez, Daryl! Now tell us what you REALLY think!  Seriously though, you are bang on. I am not a guide or outfitter, but most of my friends are (or were) guides. I hear the same thing from them all the time. What always gets me is that when the hunting is tough, or the weather isn't cooperating, and a hunter goes home unsuccessful, the outfitter or guide frequently "didn't know what the heck they were doing". Most clients couldn't saddle their horse by themselves, yet they figure they know more about (elk, goat, moose, sheep......) hunting than the professionals! Go figure. Outfitters really can't guarantee anything, other than providing a well organized camp, and all the "tools" in place to give the hunt a 110% effort. Hunting is hunting, otherwise we'd just call it killing. Situations where an outfitter doesn't hold up his end of the bargain, by providing crappy food, lame horses, lousy guides or whatever, or having game poor territories are a different story altogether. These types usually don't last too long in the business, and can usually be easily identified by reference checks. Canuck | |||
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What I take away from this thread is that when you boil it all down it's not the outfitters, it's the hunters. More and more "hunters" are measuring success by whether or not the make a kill and how big it is. Obviously, havesting a fine example of the species we're pursuing is an objective of the hunt, otherwise just carry a camera. But if the only reason you're out there and your only measure of success is a kill then I submit you should re-think your participation in our sacred pursuit. Stop blaming the outfitters. They're only reflecting the presures put on them by misguided "hunters". | |||
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The scariest thing that happens to me is when a hunter sez I been hunting mule deer all my life, and I know the ropes! thats when my antena goes up, Lordy, Lordy...... We hunt desert muleys, and the glass the slopes guys show up and start telling us we spend to much time on a horse just wondering around and they won't except the fact that we have been hunting these wiley desert deer for all our lives and our fathers before us.. We try to cover as much country as possible because those big bucks are 25 miles apart, an not a meadow exist for 1000 miles...and we are not just riding, were tracking some of the time and looking some of the time..It's a whole new ballgame....but I have had hunters tell me the guide didn't know how to hunt deer, and got up and left camp...actually I think they were just beat from the lenthy horseback ride and were looking for an excuse to go home....Had they just been honest, we would have given them a days rest and extended the hunt a day... Remember a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and when in Rome do as Romans do... It's a tough business, I like the booking end of it, less phyical labor and I'm getting older... I wouldn't want to depend on guiding for a liveing and lots of the very best guides are driving trucks,welding and selling insurance and making real money these days. They don't have to get hammered by the hunt report that way, and that sure doesn't help the industry. I don't blame them. Maybe we're getting the left overs. ------------------ | |||
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No kidding Ray, we hired a guide to drive truck for us a year ago, after one of his dudes made a "pass" at him. That was more than he was willing to put up with. It's a job that's not as glamorous as it appears at first glance. Dutch. | |||
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Dutch, Tell him thats just part of a good guides job, please the client, but you didn't say if he did his job or not!! ------------------ | |||
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Ray, I never asked. In Challis, asking that question could get you hurt........ ;-). Dutch. | |||
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Gentlemen, The solution to bad outfitters is easy. Don't hunt with one. Do some research and guide yourself if it is legal. Come out here and hunt the Oregon Coast Range or Western Cascades for elk, blacktail, or black bear. We don't have many outfitters here, because no outfitters want to try to place any chance of success here. There are only two ways to take an animal here, trophy or not, one is to get lucky and see one standing in the open (happens about once every 12-15 years for most of us), and the other way is to work your ass off. The ground is steep and brushy, and the weather is awful. You will notice that no hunting magazines publish articles about hunting Roosevelt Elk in the coast range. There is a reason for that. Very few people want to work hard enough to have any chance of success. It doesn't matter whether it is Craig Boddington, John Wooters, you or me....the ground is steep, and the pack out is hard. When you get the elk to your truck you have earned it. A co-worker took a beautiful 6x6 yesterday afternoon about 3:00 pm. It was at the truck at 2:15 AM today. All of that work to get it 1500 feet. That is what it is like to hunt here. Just my opinion about booking hunts in the USA. It always seems to be a problem, that is why I do not do it. I probably won't do it either, since I haven't had many good experiences in that regard. Joel Slate I ho | |||
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| <whisler> |
So far, I have never had the money to hunt with a guide. I work my butt off year after year trying to kill a few whitetail. Next May, I have Black bear hunt scheduled in Montana. I did my research, the guide furnished me with references, and not all of them were successful. ALL said they are going back, same guide.....They also said, listen to the guide, GET IN SHAPE, and if they weather holds, you will be successfull. | ||
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Lawyers don't file law suits on their own. Lawyers don't solicit law suits. Lawyers represent clients, hunters in this case, that file law suits. Blame the fat ass that can't hit the broad side of a barn, and then blames it on the guide, not on the attorney that represents him. Attorneys represent, and protect your rights. s | |||
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