quote:

Originally posted by dakor:
M16 I would like to know how you can come off saying the western states do not want non residents hunting in their state. When you live in probably one of the most Discriminatory non res hunting states in the union. Can I come down there and hunt thousands of acres of public land? I bet not. Yeah I can get a tag but I would have to pay out of my ass to hunt on some lease.

THat's a big pile of stinky stuff!

You can buy a license over the counter and get the EXACT SAME hunting rights as I can as a resident. No drawings, no reduced quotas, nada. It sucks just as bad for non-land owning Texans as for non-Texas residents. Not very discriminatory...not fun, but not discriminatory.

What does that have to do with high fencing, BTW?

quote:

Can I come down there and hunt thousands of acres of public land? I bet not.

You sure can. The national grasslands and national forest are public hunting areas. There are also wildlife management areas that are available through a drawing without a non-resident quota. You have the same chance as a resident.

quote:

Yeah I can get a tag but I would have to pay out of my ass to hunt on some lease

Only if you wanted to and couldn't handle the competition on public land. And you can't get just one tag in Texas. You get five whitetail and two mule deer tags so it's seven deer tags total. And if you hunt MLD you could legally kill as many deer as you had tags. You really should do a little research before making a fool of yourself.

What does 7 tags have anything to do with anything? I meant tag as a general statement.

quote:

You really should do a little research before making a fool of yourself

Right back at you. You think just because a state sets a tag quota for non res hunters that they are not being fair? Its called a perk for living in the state. Move if you do not like it.

How about we get back to discussing the high fence subject!

I have a question, I don't live near any fenced operation, high or low, but what happens to the animals that leave the ranches thru downed fences or by other means, not only deer but other exotic's? As an example, the burro, that has become such a problem. These animals will escape, it's just a matter of time before they bread. It's simply a forgone outcome of this type of ranching. Are they going to become indigenous to the US? Will they bread with other animals on the range, producing "mules"?
This will happen, either on a large scale, as indiviual problems. I can just see the southern US in a few hundred years. Wild herds of African animals running free..... Far fetched, who knows. Talk about disease then...
Of course just look at the great hunting then....

We met a guy at an archery shop a few years ago who had shot a nice Eland Bull free ranging in South Texas, with his bow! He said he was just sitting in a blind hunting for Whitetail (I think at a feeder) and this Eland walks up, so he shot it. What are the odds of that? It was a really nice bull too, he had it pedestal mounted in the shop.

There are tens of thousands of free ranging exotics in the Hill Country. The most common are Axis, Fallow, Blackbuck, Aoudad, and Sika. However, I do know a guy that hunted on a place next to the Y.O. Ranch. They hunted next to a section of the Y.O. that had really crappy fences and they killed a 31 inch Eland, as well as a Beisa Oryx and some sort of expensive sheep (either a Red Sheep or Afghan Urial). All of which had gotten out of the Y.O.'s fences.

quote:

How about we get back to discussing the high fence subject!

Sure. How exactly do you "hunt" these facilities ?

Is it mostly like we see Bubba doing on whichever 'extreme' hunting show where he is ensconced in the high stand, in full camo after the obligatory shots of the ride to it in the new ATV hunt wagon with hydraulic dump bed feature ?

And what is the cost for a buck, an upward sliding scale as antler size increases ?

All of which represents a tiny percentage of actual hunting in North America but in the eyes of the public, who stumble upon these programs whilst channel surfing, put hunters in the Bubba category.

quote:

Sure. How exactly do you "hunt" these facilities ?

Well, I guess the answer to your question depends on what you mean by "these facilities". If you are referring to ranches which have high fences, then my answer would be the same answer you would probably give if I asked, "Exactly how do you hunt where you are?". And I would bet that your answer would be something like: We hunt in lots of ways depending on the specific circumstances"

BUT, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the tone of your post sounds like you don't really want to "discuss", you've already made up your mind.

Certainly, there are commercial operations where the "hunting" is much as you describe. But from what I have seen, on the vast majority of high fenced ranches hunting is conducted in whatever way is the most effective, or whatever way suits a guy's fancy on that day.

Now let me add that, as much as I love Texas, I also envy those of you who live in western states where there are bazillions of acres of pristine, undisturbed federal lands where you can hunt relatively undisturbed game without paying exorbatant fees.

For many of us in more populated states, high fences are not a way to contain game for a "canned hunt", but they are a way to reconstruct the pristine environment of proper, healhty game populatons, with good habitat, and the same opportunity to grow to maturity that game in the vast public areas of the west have.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, high fences don't equate to game farms, and high fences don't equate to canned hunts.

olarmy is right. It sounds to me like you aren't willing to discuss anything. You have made up your mind and aren't willing to listen to anyone who disagrees.

Skinner,

Also, to answer your question: The method used for hunting on high fenced ranches varies based on the species being hunted and the property it is being hunted on. If you are after Whitetail down in South Texas where it is nearly 100% brush, then you will probably just be hunting out of a blind overlooking a sendero or possbily a food plot. If you've ever tried stalking in South Texas, you will know why they choose to hunt from stands most of the time. However, if you are hunting exotics, you will most likely be using the "spot & stalk" method. You will usually drive around until you see an individual or herd of the species you are after. Then you will leave the vehicle and plan a stalk. This is the same method used by many outfitters in Southern Africa when hunting plains game. Then, there are what I would like to call the "slob hunters" that drive around and shoot $10,000 exotics out of the truck. It is different if you are disabled or something like that, but if you are perfectly healthy, there's no need to shoot stuff like that out of the truck. However, it is perfectly acceptable (in my book) to shoot varmints and/or pigs from a vehicle, but that's a different story.

Think about this: What is the difference in shooting a buck from a box blind at a feeder on a high fenced ranch than doing the same thing on open range land? There is none. I understand that some people don't agree with baiting, but hunting over feeders is how most Whitetail hunters do it in Texas. Personally, I've only shot 2 bucks at feeders and both of them were during the rut (typically, that's the only time a mature buck will go to a feeder during the daylight because of the does being there). I shoot does and pigs at feeders, but I much prefer to scout areas for mature bucks and hunt over scrapes and trails or a food plot.

I have another question? IF their are many, many animals running free, what does the US Fish and Wildlife have to say about it or do they have any jurisdiction. And what about the Ferderal Courts, have they prosecuted and "Ranchers" for allowing animals to escape? A final question, What if anything is being done to remove these "wild animals"?

They dont care and anyone can shoot them if they come on your property.

I have only one problem with the whole high fence scene,I dont think you should be able to count a trophy size buck in the same book as wild deer that havent been eating at food plots and bred for antler size their whole lives.
Wild trophy animals got that way because they are smart enough ,fast enough,tough enough,to have survived for long enough to grow those antlers DESPITE being legal game for the public.Not because someone has kept them from being shot so they can get old enough to grow antler worth thousands.

jb: FWIW a deer taken in a high fenced area is not eligible for the B&C book. And I, for one, could care less about "the book" anyway...

olarmy; you and I dont care about the book,but there are some out there who would pay thousands to get in it.pay thousands and do anything.

jb:

can't argue with that!

I hunted whitetail deer in a hunt on an 18,000 acre lease on the King Ranch one year. It was a high fence operation. I talked to the biologist on the lease one day and he talked about just how large that one lease really was, some 28 square miles. He told me that the lease was loaded with deer which would never cover the entire 28 square miles in a five-year span. In other words, in their lifetime they would not be stopped by a fence, then walk to the other side of the lease and be stopped by another fence. He told me there are bucks that are nocturnal who live out their entire lives without running into hunters. I have to admit, I'd love to run into one of those bucks. Granted, there are feeders there. But then folks, realistically, think about the hunter in Alabama, Mississippi and other states where food plots are planted for the deer to enhance body and antler growth, though it may not be inside high fence. Imagine those same hunters putting up their tree stands, or getting into their box stands and hunting on or near the food plots. What's the diff, except there is no high fence? That is my 2.5 cents worth, which I know has not changed any minds one iota. People who believe in high fence hunting will continue to believe in high fence hunting. Those who don't believe in it, will not believe in it now, or ever. So, as I see it, why in the hell is this thread so damn long?

Good point.

what does the height of the fence have to do with hunting from a stand?

why is it every time texas comes up the dickheads want to bash a hunting style they have no concept of.

the I saw it on tv so it must be so crowd that belives high fence = canned and stand hunting = fat lazy ignorant hunters. please accept my invite to never come to texas, never read about hunting in texas.never watch or listen to texas hunting shows or stories. once you get all of that done shut the f*** up about it.

high fence is as much to keep assholes out as deer in. the fence is not deer proof only deer resistant they can jump game fence they just realy have to want to and they usualy bust there ass to do it.
the illegal aliens avoid these fences because they are hard to climb and cuting them seems to bring the heat on so they just navigate around them right across my property (acording to the border cops)

I hunt 328 acres in south texas it is not high fenced but is so thick that you cant walk across it. some of the neigbors have high fence and I see bucks jump it from time to time.

the only realy effective way to hunt land this small and brush choked is from a stand. we feed year round to keep the animal numbers up as there is not enough food for them to make it. I rarely kill anything under a feeder as they usualy come in there at night. I normaly get a shot at deer from over looking a road "they travel them to because of the brush". we ocaisionaly dump some corn down a road to get them to stop when crosing. spot and stalk where you cant see 20 feet is kinda dull


we also pump water for the wildlife so the dry season we are having now wont kill them. I bet you hunting supermen never hunt any animal coming or going to man made water either.

that rugged western inividualist that lives out west or in alaska to be free in the wide open spaces, self determined, self reliant and only answer to their own idea of honour. why are you so ready to condem me for not hunting just like they do where you are.

wow the spirit of freedom my ass

spot and stalk still hunt or be the evil lazy redneck drawing only scorn from "real hunters" in states where 90 % of the land is not privatly owned.

Crusher. I understand and sympathise. I do have a small request or maybe it's a recommendation... it's called punctuation. Use it. it helps the rest of us understand a cogent point rather than some kind of Boomtower rant from King of the Hill... know what i mean?

ok first it was the all caps problem next you will want me to spell while throwing these fits

and I understand what that guy is sayin

brianbo,

Just so you know, it's "Boomhower" not "Boomtower". You did give me a good laugh though.

Hmmm, kinda like shooting a pig in a poke?

Feed 'em so they don't die.
Water 'em so they don't die.
Surround 'em with a high fence.
Shoot 'em from a high chair.

we ocaisionaly dump some corn down a road to get them to stop...

Cool. Instant roadkill. Just add rubber.

onefunzr2,
If you compare the number of my posts to the time I've been registered you will see that I lurk much more than I post. However I have been following this thread since its inception. I thought I might weigh in after reading your post. I know you're having fun at the expense of us unreconstructed Texas rednecks, because if you really want to get down to it, if your use anything other than your bare hands you're being kind of hypocritical. By that I mean that if you use a sharpened stick to twist a rabbit out of a hole, a rock, drive animals off a cliff, use a spear, a bow a sling, or heaven forbid, a pistol or rifle, you are using your intellect, (the thing that separates man from animal). God's original dominion covenant told man to have dominion over the birds of the air and the beast of the field. Personally, in my old age I much prefer to use my intellect to stack the odds in my favor when I decide I want to hunt and take game. I would expect that you do too. So how about cutting some us Texans some slack. Its likely we have much more in common than we have differences
GWB

I'm 58 and disabled, I'd rather die without ever tasting another piece of venison than shoot an animal in a pen.

Fair Chase rules for hunting fenced animals.. hah. How silly. That's for sissies with little wee-wees..

AI22-250
Have you ever heard the story about ham and eggs, for the chicken its no big deal but for the pig its total commitment! Convictions are like eggs. Principals are to die for. Stop and think about the absolute nature of what you are saying. And with all due respect, as to the fact that you would "rather die without tasting anothe piece of venison than shoot an animal in a pen." How far does that extend. You might need to start eating vegetables exclusively because if you eat chicken, pork or beef, it was in a pen before being slaughtered.

As an aside, evidently you must not have been very hungry lately. When I was 14 yrs old, my dad left me up in the country with a couple of wino's he had working on a ranch house. He left them with money to buy food and supplies. Instead they bought whiskey, beer and cigarettes. I went three days without anything to eat until I was able to catch a catfish out of the creek. I cooked that fish on a stick over an open fire. It wasn't good but it was food. I guarantee if there had been an animal in a pen, I would have shot it and ate it in a heart beat.

Now I know your reply could be that hunters that shoot animals in a pen aren't taking those animals for sustenance. I agree. However, shooting an animal in a pen is not un-ethical or immoral. You've probably put out traps for mice or swatted flies. Shooting an animal in a pen and calling that hunting is un-ethical and and dishonest, but it is not immoral.

What I had hoped to do in my post is to say that chances are that as sportsmen and hunters we have a lot more in common that we have differences. Chances are that most who post here love their wife and kids, spend green american dollars and bleed red blood when cut. What is hard to understand from my perception is the absolute disdain people display in their posts for a those who hunt in "high fenced" areas or hunt over feeders. Customs vary in different geographic locations. Because I do things different from yo does not men that its un-ethical.

By the way, one of the pens I do my "killin" in is a 1,800 acre low fenced section of a 30,000 acre low fenced ranch. The other pen is a a 3,000 acre low fenced ranch where there is not another human inhabitant for a least a 7 mile radius. I've never hunted on a high fenced ranch, but I would. I'd enjoy the company of my buds, I'd kill deer and hogs, process the meat, enjoy every bite I cooked, give away as much as I could to friends and family and never look back.
GWB

quote:

God's original dominion covenant told man to have dominion over the birds of the air and the beast of the field.

Quite true. But the way I see it as a farmer, if you have to feed it, water it and fence it in, it's no longer a wild game animal. It's a farm animal that gets butchered when the freezer's empty. And just because you have a license on your back and a high powered rifle to your shoulder does not make that 10 point buck in your crosshairs a big game animal.

No way. No shape. No how.

Is it any different than holding up a stringer of brown trout that were dumped in the stream from the hatchery truck 2 hours before? Not in my book. But if you can truthfully call this "trout fishing" then I can see where the mentality comes from calling high-fenced shooting "big game hunting."

""Because I do things different from yo (sic)does not men(sic) that its un-ethical.""


Ah huh. Like seeing a cow elk at 500 yards and then stepping back 300 more yards to shoot so you can pull out your poster board and Sharpie and click a digital hero's pic for longrangehunter.com?

No disrespect intended for anyone from the great state of Texas or anywhere else for that matter. It's just my opinion. And I'm entitled.

quote:

It's just my opinion. And I'm entitled.

You're certainly entitled.

But I bet if I said that IMO everyone in Center Valley, PA, has an IQ of 50 or less, you might try to convince me that I was incorrect, even if I were entitled to my opinion....

quote:

...everyone in Center Valley, PA, has an IQ of 50 or less, you might try to convince me that I was incorrect...

50 is the threshold below which most adults cannot cope outside of an institution. Some folks might get riled and call them fighting words. Not me. You'd lose the bet.

No one ever said how Texans or other hi-fenced areas contain their birds from flapping away before some one has a chance to pay to shoot them. Roof nets over the high fences? Or perhaps you clip their wings as they emerge from the brooder.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
Quite true. But the way I see it as a farmer, if you have to feed it, water it and fence it in, it's no longer a wild game animal. It's a farm animal that gets butchered when the freezer's empty. And just because you have a license on your back and a high powered rifle to your shoulder does not make that 10 point buck in your crosshairs a big game animal.

No way. No shape. No how.

Is it any different than holding up a stringer of brown trout that were dumped in the stream from the hatchery truck 2 hours before? Not in my book. But if you can truthfully call this "trout fishing" then I can see where the mentality comes from calling high-fenced shooting "big game hunting."

onefunzr2,

What if those brown trout on that stringer are descendants of brown trout that were dumped in the stream from the hatchery 10 years ago? It's not the same, is it? I bet you would still call that fishing, right? Your statement might be true for "put and take" operations, but not for high fenced properties that have healthy breeding herds of animals that were all born and raised on the ranch. And I mean raised by their mothers, not humans. Think about that.

quote:

I bet you would still call that fishing, right?

Nope, you'd lose the bet too.

Guys come one get a grip. We are all on the same side, HUNTERS, and we are a minority!
To say another hunter is not ethical is
ignoring reality. Hunters, yes I say hunters in different parts of our country hunt by different
methods as tradition in that area dictates.
Hunting deer in the swamps in the south with dogs, bear over bait, alligators with hook,
deer drives, ducks with motorized decoys, bear with hounds or high fences. It is the area and local customs that are common for that area, that dictate how those that grew up there hunt.
Now lets broaden our horizons a little outside of the US. Are you going to tell me that the methods used by some of our brothern in their
countries are unethical? Just because somthing is different from what you are use to, or is not
somthing you want to do, that doesn't make it wrong. Just different from what or how you were raised in your part of the world.
What is next, bow hunters, hand guns, 45-70's
an animal less then 50 yrds one more than 200 yrds? There is no such thing as hunting ethics,there are hunting laws.
Ethics are an individual thing. If someone is doing somthing that is not aginst the law in their part of the world and you disagree with it, you are within your rights, but it doesn't
make the other guy wrong, just different. Lots of places I have visited and had the chance to experance have done things that I was uncomfortable with. So I didn't.
We as hunters have tough enough time trying to explain our traditions with the anti's, in stead
of beating each other up because of the traditions or methods of somewhere we didn't grow up and learn how to hunt.

onefunzr2,

I jokingly tell people that when I was born my folks were so broke that they couldn't afford a name, all they could afford to give me were initials. Growing up I read second-hand copies of the American Rifleman that one of the kids down the street let me have when they were finished. At 10 years old I swore to myself if I ever made any money I was going to own some guns and that I would hunt. Later on I had three kids and went broke. At least my kids weren't born during hunting season.

I'm not looking for sympathy but explaining my parochial views concerning hunting ( and I don't call hunting hogs and deer big game hunting, I call it fun) It only been during the last seven years or so that I could afford to do much deer hunting (and I've made up for lost time). Here in Texas about the only way to do any significant amount of successful hunting other than for fowl or squirrels is to pay a trespass fee to hunt private land.

So, I've not hunted outside Texas and Louisiana. I once was in Cheyenne Wyoming and drove down to Greely Colorado. I couldn't believe the amount of buffalo and pronghorn antelope I saw on either side of the highway.

Anyway, If I know my abbreviations you are from Pennsylvania. Would you be so kind as to enlighten me as to how ya'll (you guys) hunt deer and hogs? Do you use shotguns or rifles? Do you bow-hunt, do you hunt from blinds, deadfalls or from vehicles and can you shoot animals from a public roadway? Do you have crops or feed plots as supplements? Do you hunt on public land or private land.
Thanks,
GWB

quote:

What if those brown trout on that stringer are descendants of brown trout that were dumped in the stream from the hatchery 10 years ago? It's not the same, is it? I bet you would still call that fishing, right?

My 2 cents.....

I for one would call that fishing. I'd also call deer that were 10 generations removed from stocking, fences, feeders, food plots, bait, water pumps, etc; wild game.

But that's not really what we're talking about, is it?

Bob

quote:

Would you be so kind as to enlighten me as to how ya'll (you guys) hunt deer and hogs?

First, let me clarify; I never claimed what you boys do is illegal or unethical. I will reiterate my thoughts that, to me, it is like shooting a pig in a poke.

No hogs to hunt in PA. Big game is eastern wild turkey, whitetailed deer, black bear and elk. Public hunting areas are: state game lands(over 325 of them), state forest, national forest, and some parts of state parks. And with permission private property--trespass fee is unheard of.

Rifles are legal statewide except in densely populated suburban regions, then only shotguns. Long bows, recurve bows, cross bows and compound bows are legal, in fact mandatory for areas like Philadelphia county. Revolvers, inline, caplock, flintlock muzzleloaders are legal in specified seasons. Man-made blinds are legal, deadfalls are not. Hunting in an orchard is legal, but kick some apples on a pile with your shoe and it's considered hunting over bait--illegal. You can stand on a public road to shoot. You can shoot over a public road as long as it's safe. You must, however, go 25 yards away from the hiway if you got out of your car--thus no road hunting. Those who qualify for handicapped license may shoot out of a vehicle, but not on the hiway. No gun hunting within 150 yards of a residence or occupied building, only 50 yards away for bowhunters. Permanent (nailed on) tree stands on public lands is illegal.

Pa is so lush with agriculturral crops; wheat, oats, barley, rye, corn, soybeans, alfalfa, sunflowers, etc, etc. that we don't need food plots. Every farmer's field is a food plot!!!

Because my farm has become encircled with new homes, I hunt on a 5,600 acre state game land bordering on New York state in what's called the Endless Mountains region.

Crave more info? Then go to the game commision website.
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/

Almost 1 million resident hunters can't be wrong. And NO HIGH FENCES.

quote:

Originally posted by Greenhorn:
Fair Chase rules for hunting fenced animals.. hah. How silly. That's for sissies with little wee-wees..

You know, Greenhorn has hit on something here. Fenced properties and "wee-wees" have one thing in common: size matters.

I've hunted exactly one fenced property in my life, and that was a New Zealand hunt for fallow deer and red stag this past March. I did'nt know the property was fenced when I bid on it at the Dallas Safari Club's silent auction last January, but that's how it turned out. Anyway, on the first day we drove around part of it for six hours. Not all of it, and no one could give me a good answer when I asked how large the property was.

Nobody had actually measured it. They said that if you took an airial photograph and measured the area inside the fence it would be just over 4000 acres. But the land was extremely mountainous and that estimate didn't include the vertical territory. They estimated that altogether there was between 7-8000 acres. At a minimum that's a little over 11 square miles.

The deer were in no way hindered by the fence. Which was about 7 feet tall, by the way, and they could jump it if they wanted to. I need a 6 foot fence just to keep my dog in the yard.

I compare it to hunting in deer in Alaska. I've hunted Alaska a few times; blacktail deer on Uganik Island and caribou just northwest of the Alaska peninsula. That was easier than hunting inside the 11 square miles of fenced land in NZ.

Of course, I don't expect Greenhorn and all the other 12 year olds to read my post. They'll go on talking about the size of my "wee-wee" and a bunch of other things they know nothing about. But I know. And so do the women in my life. And Greenhorn has no idea who they are, does he?

I have hunted under high fence in Namibia and Spain. Both times were in areas about 8000 acres. I never saw an animal up against a fence with no place to run.

I don't care for bowhunting as I think they wound a lot of animals, I even saw a report a few years ago from the Oregon G&F with some statistics.

Some people don't care for high fence hunting, the bottom line is if we don't all stick together, hunting weather by bow, rifle, free range, or under high fence will all be gone.

Small penis, big penis, or guy holding a rifle with no place to hunt because we couldn't all get a long.

Just my 2 cents.

Hello, I'm new to the forum, and this is a subject I'm interested in (ethics of hunting) and familiar with. I live in CO now, mostly because I like to hunt and fish in the backcountry. Out here I hunt out of a backpack camp, mostly with a muzzleloader. I also spent six years in South Texas and hunted both high-fenced and low-fenced ranches there. I've gone back to hunt there recently and will do it again. I don't enjoy it as much as my backcountry hunts, but that's just me. It's a different style of hunting, that's all.

The one thing I object to is the trophy aspect. I'm not saying that all high-fenced ranches are like this, because I know they're not but on a lot of them a hunter can be almost guaranteed of a certain size rack and it has nothing to do with his hunting skill, just how much he's willing to pay, and the skill of the rancher who nurtured the deer, culled the inferior bucks, let the exceptional bucks breed, etc.. If the hunter wants to buy a similar rack for his 8 year-old son or his wife who's never hunted, the ranch can make that happen too. I've been on some ranches where they videtape the bucks and show the tapes to the hunters to build excitement before the hunt. And each hunter gets a "guide" not so much to help him get his trophy, but to make sure he shoots the right deer--a 5 1/2 year-old in his prime, rather than a 4 year-old that will be worth more next year.

But, who am I to condemn that style of hunting, especially if I'm not a trophy hunter and not competing with the guy who does it? To each his own. If a guy wants to do that and then brag about the size of the rack on the deer he killed, let him. And then do your own thing.

I don't really buy the argument that "we've got to clean this up because anti-hunters will use it to ban hunting." Anti-hunters will use anything we do to ban hunting, including use of "primitive" weapons, hunting with dogs, hunting bears or lions over bait, whatever. Then they'll move on to the next thing. I'd rather use the argument against antis that we eat meat so why not let us kill our own, and then point to their leather shoes and belt. Better than arguing amongst ourselves, IMO.

My $.02,

Pretty well stated, COPhil.