I was looking at the ballistics on Remington's website for the 25-06 Remington. The energy for a 120 grain bullet at 500 yards was is only 887 ft. lbs.

I think I remember reading somewhere (maybe here) that you the energy at POI should be at least 1000 foot pounds for deer. Is this correct? Is 500 yards "too far" for a clean, ethical kill on a deer with a 25-06 (Assuming all other factors like expertise, marksmanship & wind are favorable for taking such a shot)?

Thanks,
Jason

That is plenty would you feel ok shooting a whitetail at point blank with a 357 mag. It well kill deer just fine.

Blood loss kills. Ceasing the function of heart, lungs, or CNS kills relatively quickly. Bullet energy does not kill.

If it takes 1000 ftlbs to kill a little white tail, how could WDM Bell have been so successful on Cape Buffalo and elephant with such miniscule calibers as .256 Manlicher and 7x57mm Mauser?

I know this is a slap in the face of modern conventional knowledge and tromp on the rifle seller's primary argument used to convince someone to buy a new gun for a planned hunt, so I will now don my flame retardent suit and stand by.

RuffHewn,

I've got a match, but I think someone else needs to pour the the gasoline................Your so true, just look at the old 30-06. It's done it all.........next?

[ 08-21-2003, 08:01: Message edited by: CK ]

I'd say the 120 gr. Cor Lock isn't a good choice for 500 yard shots. Look at the 500y impact speed, it's only 1825 fps. A much better choice would be either the Winchester 115 gr. Ballistic SilverTip (1996 fps, 1017 ft-lbs), or the Federal Premium 117 gr. Sierra BTSP load (2000 fps, 1045 ft-lbs).

Why don't you just get a hundred yrds closer then youd have plenty of energy??? Shoot 500 yrds is a longggg shot! Sure you don't need that multi duplexed supper pooper magmun with a 500 gr bullet at 14000 ft lbs of energy for those 90 lb deer!!!

energy is a meaningless number in relation to a bullets terminal performance on animals.

As was previously started, blood loss causes death, not bullet energy.

Even elephants have been killed with a 22lr, so it doesn't take alot of power to kill an animal. What it does require is knowledge of an animals anatomy, knowledge of your bullets limitations, and the shooting skill to place that bullet into the proper part of the animals anatomy, within the limitations of the bullet.

This isn't meant as an insult, but based on your question I assume that you have no clue what the limitations of any bullet is, let alone the one you mentioned, and you have no business taking shots at 500 yds on deer, probably not even to 300 yds.

Energy does not kill anything. It is shot placement, and at 500 yds, that becomes a bigger challenge.

Bullet performance is the next thing to consider.
Not condoning this, but people Poach deer with a 22 Long Rifle the world over.

I have put down deer that have been struck by cars at 100 to 125 yds with a head shot from a 22 Mag. Foot pounds are not into play at all.
I knew that a heart or lung shot would not drop them instantly. However, bullet placement between the eyes from a rest, and they went down like a sack of potatoes. Two Indian boys wanted to have the carcass off of one kill. Their father motioned me over as the boys were with the deer. Both of the ear drums were bulged out and when they shook the deers head, from the blood and mess that use to be the brain, it sounded like shaking water in a boot.

Whatever you shoot, just know the capabilities of the bullet, and the capabilities of the caliber. Also know the limitations. Place your shot accordingly, and make sure you can make it, or else ethically you should not be pulling the trigger IMHO.

Good luck with your hunt,

That's why I posted my response above-this is the best arguement I've seen yet to why we don't need these Super Mags! Why have all that extra recoil(Punishment) when a suitable caliber in Non-Mag will do? If you place a bullet of suitable caliber-weight into the vitals of any given animal it's dead! Just about any center fire is capable of a 500 yrd shot- just because it's capable doesn't mean it should be used at that range-shooter skill is the determining factor for this. If you can't put the bullet in a kill zone size for the animal your hunting in any type of situation/postion /weather conditions then you shouldn't be shooting that far!! My personnel limit is not determined by the rifle/caliber but more so by ME!! If I'm comfortable with the conditions of the shot-My personnel limit is 300 yrds my rifle can do better than that easy it's just I can't!

[ 08-22-2003, 20:19: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

Putting a slightly different twist on it, you have to have enough energy to get up in the morning, and tromp through the weeds. Coffee is reputed to help with this.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RuffHewn:
[QB]Blood loss kills. Ceasing the function of heart, lungs, or CNS kills relatively quickly. Bullet energy does not kill.

Stated simply what kills animals is the the inability of the brain to send the signals to all of the other organs and the muscles of the body to work. Starving the brain of oxygen by the loss of blood is one way, as is destroying the brain in place, as well as severing the neural pathways to the other parts of the body.
I've had lung shot animals (through and through the ribs) drop instantly in place and die, and the instant immobilization could not be from blood loss or the severing of neural pathways. The energy absorbed by the animal's body can have a major effect in the instant capacitation of a shot animal due to shock and that immediate cessation of voluntary and involuntary muscle action is what keeps us from tracking some animals for 100's if not 1000's of yards.

Stonecreek, much of what you say is true but, a) I've seen as elephant fall to a single shot from a .223, b) your 1000 ft lb reference is, respectfully, bullshit. Shot placement and terminal performance is far more pertinent. Anybody that hunts with black powder/archery/handguns(not pocket rifles) can recite a myriad of examples. Rifle shooters don't always see this as thru and thru shots make evaluation of dispensed energy problematic at best.

I shoot pure lead paper patch from a .44 mag, MV 1500 fps, 300 grains, BC about .240. Run that thru a ballistics program and watch me laugh when you say I shouldn't shoot a deer or hog beyond 75, 100, or 125 yards, wherever my projectile falls below that unsupportable index. My personnal limit is 200 yds, mostly because I haven't worked the trajectory beyond that. The gun shoots MOA BTW. Expansion hovers around 2 calibers, retained weight about 97% which is typical of this type of projectile. It's not about the energy threshold.

I think it is a combination. I don't think there is a magic number, but energy and performance are based upon one another. If there is not enough energy, there is no performance, terminal or otherwise. To over state the point, throw the bullet at the deer and see if energy isn't important. By the same token, can a needle propelled at 6000fps kill a deer?...sure if everything else is perfect, but it is not likely.

To the point, can the 25-06 as you propose kill deer at 500 yards, SURE as long as you do the job on your end. Is it ideal?...Not by a long shot (pun intended), but I don't think a 500 yard shot is the best for any animal that I care about recovering. Just a personal preferrence. If I can't get within 300-350 yards of a deer I don't shoot. Prairie dogs and coyotes are a different story.

The .22 rimfire long rifle high speed bullet (muzzle velocity about 1255 f.p.s.) produces about 140 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle. Deer have been successfully taken with this caliber, with head shots. In fact, my father butchered his own beef, and he used a .22 rimfire to shoot cows to be butchered, animals weighing nearly 1000 pounds -- he'd shoot them in the brain through a forehead shot. They'd fall immediately, and then right away he'd move in with a butcher knife and cut their carotid artery.

I'm not suggesting that a .22 rimfire is a good or even an adequate deer rifle. But what counts is shot placement, and seemingly too-small-for-the-task guns and calibers have been and can be quite effective, given the proper shot placement.

[ 08-22-2003, 23:55: Message edited by: LE270 ]

In my very humble opinion, no cartridge is appropriate for a 500 yard shot on deer. If the shot is not placed perfectly at that range (a realistic possibility for almost any marksman), you have a wounded deer 500 yards away to follow up on. In which case you would justifiably feel like a schmuck.

It's just not that hard to get another 200 yards closer.

all this talk about "minimum energy" and bullet performance is a load of crap(for deer anyway). I've seen deer killed with CB caps and drop on the spot and I've seen them hit by a 45-70 and never stop running... UP HILL!

An effective shot on a deer, or any other critter for that matter requires three things:
1. Effective shot placement.
2. Effective shot placement.
And
3. EFFECTIVE SHOT PLACEMENT

Stonecreek, I said, "respectfully". Methinks that when you use another's term without quotes you have adopted it. Like I did yours.

Ross Seyfried has an article recently published wherein a .375 270(?) gr BT gave 7" of penetration in wet newsprint at 2800 fps. That would do me I'm sure, it has a lot of energy, would you hunt buff with that?

100 or 500 with a Core-Lokt? My reflexes are gettin' slow, I'm not sure I could catch the close one with my teeth, or see the long one without my glasses...

I know a fellow that survived a hit from a 12.7mm at less than 100 yards, saw a buffalo fall to a Colt 1911, one shot, dead when it hit the ground. I'm not unmindful that it takes energy to cause injury, but I do say that energy thresholds are of little meaning. You can disrupt the CNS, or bleed the animal to death. This may happen fast or slow, according to placement and what the bullet does on arrival.

I did read your post carefully BTW. My handgun is a rifle. It is a sacrilege of stainless and synthetic, paperpatch bullets and a red dot sight. I tried to have my second childhood but couldn't quite get there. I'm sure that it has Elmer spinning in his grave; I don't have much use for pistols.

Kind of funny how I asked a question regarding a "standard" I thought I had heard somewhere, and end up being told I have no business shooting a deer at over 300 yards because I have no knowledge of deer anatomy. As for the theory that it isn't all that hard to get another 200 yards closer, well, until you've hunted trophy coues deer you won't know how inaccurate that suggestion is. I'm mainly a bowhunter, so I know deer anatomy. I know how to stalk,and I know that you can kill a deer with a slingshot and a ball-bearing if you hit him between the eyes at close range. Funny how the flame-thowers come out when some asks a valid question in an effor to make ethical decsisions when considering new hunting cartridges.

I'd go with the manufactures suggested minimum velocity for expansion. As to accuracy, with your gun and your shooting skill, can you hit a basket ball sized target every time? Since basket balls are expensive, try a paper plate out to five hundred yards across whatever type country you'll be hunting in. Are you going to use a range finder, eliminating drop as an issue, and can you "dope the wind" to within two or three inches of drift at that distance? I liked shooting targets at 500 yards in the military, but they weren't trophy deer and they gave me lots of time for each shot, up to a minute if my foggy brain cells are correct, and plenty of flags to dope the wind, and sighter shots and a spotter with a scope and an exact range, and no twigs in the way. As a bow hunter, you sure know your deer and respect them, just use the same ethics in this case.

Well, AZ, you didn't specify Coues deer, did you? You didn't make it clear that you were talking about a shot across a canyon or nothing, and you didn't specify the size of your deer either. Then, you complain that we didn't answer your question the way you wanted.

If that's really your situation, get a .270 or .264Mag or 7Mag. Work up a very accurate load for it, and practice doping the wind, preferably by shooting across a canyon at that kind of distance until you can hit a 6 inch target every time. Shooting close to MOA at that distance under hunting conditions when you can't pick and choose the wind conditions is no simple task, no matter how much shooting you've done. Otherwise you will find yourself 500 yards away ACROSS A CANYON from a wounded deer. And nobody is going to feel sorry for you.

IN answer to your two questions:

Questino number one: is the 1000 foot pounds correct as a mortal threshold? no.

Question number two:

is 500 yards too far for an ethical shot ON DEER with a 25-06? Yes.

for anyone but a long range specialist with perfect windless conditions and a benchrest type hold. I too hunt coeus, although I can not spell them, and I agree that sometimes they are really skittish and cross canyon shots just may not allow stalking. But just because I can't get closer than 500 yards does not make it an ethical shot FOR ME.

At the velocities required to dip below 1000 ft pounds, the wind factor is a very steep effect curve. Hell, I have missed white tails at 50 yards cause they would not stand still! can t say as I blamed them.

Carson,
Thank you for your well written reply. For the rest, I have .300 Wby Mag. I've been having troubles getting to shoot as accurately as I'd like. As a result, I'm considering smaller calibers I can get very comfortable with. The problem is, when you finally spot that "deer of a lifetime" they don't seem to be particularly accomodating when it comes to a stalk. For example: Suppose you are glassing a canyon at long range - you see the deer, accross the canyon. You have plenty of time to use a rangefinder, or judge the wind. But how close can you get? Forget for a moment that it's probably close to the end of the day - if you cross the canyon, you'll go downhill for about 300 yards, then back up another couple of hundred. Asssuming it's still light enough to shoot, where is the deer? Certainly no where visible. I could elaborate more, but the point is, when hunting trophy coues deer you have a couple of choices: Either find a gun you shoot very well at long ranges, or be ready to go home with an unfilled tag. It is entirely possible to get close to coues deer, but terrain and their uncanny ability to avoid predators mean that more likely than not, you'll have a long shot. I've heard many coues deer hunters tell of stories where they "hit a good buck" with thier 22-250 and lost the blood trail. All I want to know is if I switch to a smaller caliber that is still known for long range accuracy, will I be at high risk of unrecoverable deer?

The point of this whole thread is ethics, and some guys here have clearly, and respectfully expressed their concern that a 500 yd shot is iffy at best. I understand that very well, and honestly hunt in a manner that any shot I take is a clean, one-shot kill at the point of impact. I simply wanted to know if switching to a more comfortable round would jeopordize that standard. I would much rather stalk to a "gimme" shot, but am experienced enough to know that it isn't always realistic in the South-West desert.

Jason

Thanks,
Jason

AZ; If you are having accuracy problems,why not just get a better barrel and stick with that cartridge. I have a B/R 308 and a 300 Mark5 Wby. Either one of them is easily capable of going 300 and so am I. I know it is kind of late but I would be tempted to get a new bbl from Shilin or Hart and cure your problem that way. Of course I am assuming that you have exhausted all the other potential problems. derf

My criteria is the cartridge must shove the bullet of my choice through the deer's vitals at a very deep angle, if not the entire body length, with sufficient velocity to exit. Bone is a wildcard limiting factor. Extreme range and angle of target presentation will be limiting factors to be considered at the time of the shot opportunity.

Thats why I prefer Partitions and X bullets that shed to a small frontal area to give that penetration. IMO bonded bullets require too much horsepower to get into that second and third foot of penetration.

Jason,

First off, just ignore the naysayers.

Although the .25-06 wouldn't be my choice, the 887 ftlbs. would likely kill a Coues just as cleanly as a bullet with 1,000 ft. lbs., given an identical bullet placement of both.

As you well know, a Coues buck isn't very wide across the body thru the vital area for a broadside shot, and it is also thin-skinned. So about any bullet that doesn't hit a major bone will pass clear thru it quite easily, even at 887 ft. lbs. And the 120-gr. will kill the deer; dead is dead, and the deer isn't gonna know whether it was hit with 113 ft.lbs less than the magical number of 1,000.

That said, I would probably step up a bit in caliber. In the book Duwane Adams and I just collaborated on -- HOW TO HUNT COUES DEER -- I mentioned that his personal favorite is a .300 WM using Hornady's 150 gr. SST factory loads, and I normally use a .264 WM with factory loaded 140-gr. Power Points.

Now here's something interesting I found last year while doing some ballistic research for a Dec. Coues hunt.

I ran the charts for my son's .270 and my 38-yr. old .264 WM Mod. 70 to get the trajectory for a 300 yard zero. He shoots 130-gr. Hornady's. I was shocked to see that the trajectories for both calibers were nearly identical from 0 to 500 yards! The only difference was a slightly lower energy curve for the .270 throughout. At 500 yards the .270 was at 1131 lbs. and my .264 was at 1142!!! And that .270 ammo is a lot cheaper and burns a hell of a lot less powder if you reload.

So maybe O'Connor knew what he was talking about.

The nice thing about going to a bigger caliber such as the .300 WM or 7mm RM, though, is the versatility to move up in bullet weights for elk, bear etc. -TONY

Outdoor writer... U better get on the 270 band wagon, its been passing you by for decades .

smallfry,

Actually, I owned a Begian-made FN Browning .270 for 20 years but rarely shot it because my Mod. 70 .264 did everything I needed. For me, it's like the proverbial ol' shoe. Over the last 38 years or so, it's killed javelina to moose, with several species of deer, a couple bears, a few caribou subspecies, several 'lopes, an octet of African critters and at least a 1/2 dozen exotics in between.

That said, I always liked the .270 and knew it had good ballistics, especially with a 130-gr. bullet. I just never looked to see how close those ballistics actually were to my .264. Granted, the latter is with a bit heavier bullet, but no game animal will ever know the difference.

Today, my 70 looks a bit different than it did out of the box, though. It originally had a wood stock and blued action, but a few too many miles of riding in a saddle scabbard eventually forced some upgrading. Here's a shot of it from my Africa trip in June. -TONY



[ 08-24-2003, 18:26: Message edited by: Outdoor Writer ]

Tony, you sure that thing's dead?!

Dan,

I used a 140-gr. tranquilizer bullet. -TONY

As to Pauls state-ment energy is meaningless to a bullets terminal performance, I will go with Stonecreek on this ,How stupid can you get.BB gun or a pellet 177 cal has a projectile like a 22, A 22 projectile but with more power-ENERGY being behind the object fired which is going to do more damage at 100 ft. Bet you A-- you would rather be hit with the pellet or BB, I really am amazed at how stupid to put it[[ bluntly ]] people can be to common logic, or like John the Greek says energy I don't buy it..Just like dropping a 16 oz hammer on youre thumb at a height of 3ft compared to a 10 sledge hammer at the same height-Guarenteed terminal damage from more energy from sledge hammer. WAKE UP

[ 08-24-2003, 20:15: Message edited by: 4bambam ]

AZ,

My brother was a 25-06 fanatic! I have seen him take several average size deer at 500 plus yards.
What i noticed most about the long shots was that they didn't show the shock of a good hit like they do say at 300 yds. Very seldom did they drop on the spot unless shot through the spine or shoulders. Coues deer are smaller than our bigger whitetails but in my humble opinion i think you might do better with a 257 or 270 Weatherby or the 7MM's. I'm not saying the 25-06 won't do the job but it wouldn't be my first choice.

STONECREEK and 4bambam, let me shed some examples on how useless energy is as a figure. Pick the best ballistic choice for moose from the following rifles
Rifle 1) develops 1400 ft/lbs at 100 yards.
Rifle 2) develops 1400 ft/lbs at 100 yards.
Rifle 3) develops 1400 ft/lbs at 100 yards.
... Now each rifle/cartridge developed its "energy" under vastly different ratios.
So which one is the best?

4bambam did you realize that you gave weight/mass (we are on earth) and distance dropped for your two examples of hammers?
Let me clear up an example for you... projectiles being shot at your hand...
Projectile "A" develops 120 ft/lbs of energy
Projectile "B" develops 120 ft/lbs of energy
Projectile "c" develops 120 ft/lbs of energy
Now as you guessed it... One is going to really wreak your hand... which one do you pick?

Stonecreek... did you realize that in almost every one of your cartridge comparisons, you laid out velocity, diameter and weight ratios to show your energy formulation? Why is that? Why not just tell us what the energy is rather than the projectiles parameters? Let me ask you... how is this work being performed, and why would the magnitudes be different in a medium, like a deer, if the energy levels were the same but the parameters of the projectile were different?
Now... let me ask... why even bother calculating "energy" if you know the parameters of the projectile? Let me drop you a hint... "Energy" would never even be a calculation in a 3 dimensional calculation of semi-fluid semi-elastic damage of a substance. YOU SIMPLY WOULD NOT NEED "ENERGY" as a calculation, but you would need to know the projectiles parameters, and "power" formula would help to verify your work. Because everything is happening at vastly different time bases, and ballistic ratios, energy is useless.
Please, since you two like energy so much, do not refer cartridges with velocity, weight, and caliber quantifiers; just let us know the amount of energy it produces... Like "I have a Remington 700 and it produces 1200 ft/lbs at 200 yards..."

I must admit defeat in the face of such overwhelming intellect:

Given plenty of velocity and mass, a projectile requires no energy! Why couldn't my tiny brain grasp this concept to begin with?!

I've used a very fine .25-06 for deer hunting for many years...(a .260 Rem now)

If you're a sniper type that can accurately place the shot at 500 yards, use a lazer rangefinder...the whole nine yards, I think the .25-06 will still do the trick.

Personally I don't own any gun that I'd shoot 500 yards because I'm just not accurate enough to hit properly. I once smacked an 8-point whitetail at about 400 yards with a .375 H&H and it had so little energy left that the bullet just passed thru the animal. I had to track it in the snow for 200 yards before I found it.