Below is a link to the Texas Parks and Wildlife dept and it's proposals for new counties being added to the list of counties that require a buck to have at least a 13 inch spread in order to be killed. While I agree that only mature bucks should be taken, using antler width to determine maturity is a poor choice. I've seen a lot of bucks with good width but very little mass or tine length. Judging deer is difficult for a lot of hunters. I've been in the stand with a lot of experienced hunters that judge a 130B&C buck to be over 150B&C. I'm not saying that some judgement has to be used but using antler width alone isn't the answer. I'm guessing that there will be a lot of bucks get killed, the hunter puts the tape to him and if he isn't over the allowed 13inches, he will be left to lay.

Perhaps there should be a way to help hunters judge age and buck maturity but antler width alone simply is not the answer. I encourage each of you who may hunt in the affected counties to contact TPWD and tell them how you feel about this issue. I belive that they will be meeting in March to decide this issue.

The 13inch rule is a tool being used by TPWD to help hunters shoot more mature deer. On the surface, that sounds like a good idea. However, there is more to judging deer maturity, age etc than the width of antlers. I agree that there needs to be more education on what is a mature buck and what is not. Obviously a skinny necked, narrow shouldered, short nosed buck is not as old as his sway backed, thick neck, long faced grandfather. I've seen fully mature 5.5+ yr old bucks that would barely pass the 13inch rule, if at all, and I've seen 2.5 yr old bucks that that have plenty of width but nothing else.



I hear it said that the program has already started to work in the areas where it has been implemented. I submit to you that there are two things wrong with that.

First, the program hasn't been around all that long, certainly not long enough to actually show that it has worked. It hasn't been scientifically shown to work, there was no control in the experiment and who's to say that the original data on which the theory was built wasn't flawed? Further, when was the last time you saw any government program work in 2 years? Let alone one with as many variables and unknowns as this one.

Second, and most importantly, the program's progress is self serving and only data that supports the program is collected. How? I will tell you.

Lets say you hunt in 13inch restricted, 1 buck county. OK, to most hunters racks/antlers look wider, bigger, taller etc when a hunter first sees the deer and “ground shrinkage” happens even to the most experienced hunters. So, when Bob goes hunting and he's sees what looks like a nice buck and everything about him looks legal, Bob is going to shoot him. Now, Bob's adrenaline is flowing, he has buck fever etc. Bob probably doesn't get into the woods as often as he'd like and he only gets to hunt a few weekends a year. Now Bob goes and puts the tape to his buck and he doesn't make the 13inch rule, lets say by 1 inch. Is Bob going to take that buck into the the meat processor where the game warden will be checking? No he isn't. Bob is not a poacher but he isn't a fool either. So, the buck gets quartered in camp, the carcass is thrown away and the antlers may be kept or they may be nailed to the barn.

The point is that any buck accidentally, or on purpose, that is killed that doesn't make the 13inch rule isn't gong to be reported. Therefore the data collected is flawed.

So now you have only 13+inch bucks being brought into checking stations, meat processors etc. So, game wardens and biologist that are checking deer are only seeing the biggest ones being reported, not necessarily the all the ones actually being killed. They are not seeing the whole picture. Now the data reflects that the racks from that county are suddenly becoming wider and only more mature deer are being killed, “so the program is working”, when it may not really be the case. Only deer that are over the limit will be known to be killed, the rest may either be left to lay or be processed in camp. Most people are honest but no one is going to volunteer themselves for a wildlife violation when they've made an honest mistake.



TPWD is creating a program where all hunters will become trophy hunters whether they want to be or not. I personally am a trophy hunter (although not a member of the farce Texas Trophy Hunters Assoc.) I am also a meat hunter and sportsman. Some deer I kill are for the meat, others because he's a good buck with a nice rack. I am pretty confidant that I can judge deer age/maturity with a pretty good degree of accuracy. However, not everyone has had the opportunity that I have had to spend the amount of time in the woods that I have and may not be as apt at judging animals as I am. Although I certainly am always learning and by no means know everything. Hunter education and deer management is improving. More and more hunters are able to look at buck and guess his age but with close to 4 million deer in Texas, I don't believe a few bucks killed that are under 13inches is hurting the population. We can't all be trophy hunters all the time. Not everyone of us will kill a 170+ B&C buck every time we go hunting. That's why it's called hunting.



Lastly, let me give you a scenario to ponder. Imagine you are a divorced father that is only able to take your son or daughter hunting a few times a year. Given that schedules for single working dads can be tough there may only be one opportunity in a season for a dad to take his kid out hunting. The dad has to have a place to hunt, be able to afford it, have a rifle his kid can shoot, deal with the possibility that an ex-spouse my be hostile to the idea of the kid hunting in the first place, etc. There are many things that can go wrong here before the actual hunt ever takes place. And lets face it. Quality time spent with your kids gets harder to come by as they get older.

However, Dad has been able to take his kid out hunting. It's rifle season and a young 6pt buck walks out that is, by no means, a buck that will grace the cover of the TTHA journal but he is a buck nevertheless.

Now, the buck is standing broadside at a reasonable distance and presents a good target to the kid. The kid's heart is beating at the chance to kill his first buck. Then Dad remembers that the 13inch rule is in effect in the county he is hunting in. So now he has to explain to his kid that because a biologist/government agency says so, he can not shoot that buck. (and don't say “wait till next year” because the kid may lose interest, the dad may lose the lease etc. Single dads don't always have “next year” to wait until). That 6pt or any other buck that a kid kills for the first time will always be the one he will remember. That kid may grow up to kill hundreds of bucks but he will never forget the first one. He may also never get the chance to hunt again and the one chance he had was stopped before it ever started because TPWD wants Texas to have bigger deer.



If Texas needs to produce bigger deer why are so many out of state hunters coming here year after year to hunt? If we need a 13inch rule why not make it 14 or more inches? Why not say he has to be a main frame 8pt or bigger? Texas has around 4 million deer. Some of them are B&C class bucks, most never will be no matter what you do for them. Let the kids and recreational hunters hunt while educating them on what deer management can do. Educate hunters on judging a mature buck, and promote the shooting of mature deer but don't stop someone from enjoying the precious time they have in the woods by worrying about some obscure, self serving rule.



http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/ne...eases/?req=20081110a

they are trying to do to deer hunting what they did to fishing

It isn't ideal but it is a start.

This expansion will be supported by the vast number of landowners in the state IMHO I know we do. The biggest problem that we have is that most small bucks that are seen heading toward a known area right across the fence are usually shot by lease hunters.

The alternative is to put up high fence, which further weakens the herd and makes the deer non B&C because of fair chase rules. Not too many bucks are reaching maturity and the TPW, our own TPW Biologist and the DOI Fish and Wildlife Service State Coordinator of the PFW Program who works with us supports the proposed expansion of this important Program.

Your points are emotionally and eloquently made I just do not support that the ends justifies the means. To ensure that the quality of animals continually improves is the responsibility of the stewards of the land.

As you have suggested I have sent an email to the both the State and Federal entities voicing at least my support and would encourage others to do so as well.

I not droping my pants for just anyone to check!!! If I say 13" you will have to take my word for it. I'm bashfull...

The rule has been in effect here for several years. Yes, it is flawed. Yes, it is problematic. And yes, plenty of undersized deer get killed and wasted.

But at least here, I have FINALLY been able to see a marked difference in both the number of and quality of bucks.

We still had some folks in the immediate vicinity who would shoot what they wanted, but that has finally subsided a bit. Before the season began for the past 2 years, I copied the county regulations and a summary of associated possible fines/restitution, put them on their gate or door -- and made sure they knew that others have had to pay up and that law enforcement personnel are just a phone call away. I did it discreetly but made dang sure they got the message.

One even called me to see if I got "the note." I did all I could not to laugh. He was hesitant to let their young grandkids -- who don't know a legal buck from a jackalope -- hunt this season because "they didn't listen to me last year." My response was that if they can't be trusted or don't have a responsible adult to help them make the right decision, then they really shouldn't be out there anyway. Surprisingly, he agreed. (I suggested he be out there with them to educate them a bit.)

Anyway, as to the results: Most younger bucks that were here during the summer are still alive with the exception of a 2.5 year-old 8-point that was somewhere between 12.5 and 13" wide.

This season, several times we had as many as 5 bucks visible at once. In years past, you would be lucky to see ONE buck all season.

It still boils down to the landowners to being diligent and making the right decisions. But at least some are taking this seriously.

In my opinion, what IS hurting hunting is the formations of these little co-ops which issue way too many doe tags. Surveys are required, but many of the parcels of land are small, and these folks are counting the SAME deer. ALso, some fudge numbers. In the eastern portion of the county, this has become a problem as the herds are being decimated to the point that overall density is in jeopardy.

The TPWD 13-inch plan may not be the best, but like someone else noted, at least it is a step in the right direction. Here in Lavaca County, we desperately some sort of regulation.

This is my buck from 11-8-08 from this county. Seeing a buck like this previously was pretty much unheard of.

FOrgot to add: here is one way the rule is NOT working.

There is a 3.5 eyar-old buck ehre that is a 4-pointer. His main beam go almost straight up for 15-16 inches and then each has a tiny branch at the top.

He is obviously genetically inferior, but he doesn't fall into the 13-inch or better or either be spike or have at least one unbranched antler. So unless he busts off a point while fighting, he is off limits.

One of the problems with the 13" rule is, what happens to the older bucks that you have to let walk because they are not 13". Are we not killing the larger bucks and by law letting, the inferior deer walk.

My understanding of the law, is to allow deer to get some age, yet there is no provision in the law to take an inferior "older" deer that is less than 13" wide. Without that provision, I believe we will be, by law, harvesting the better animals and letting the inferior deer breed.

I supose it goes without saying a 5x0 "Broken main beam" is a safe deer then.

Another part of the law is for the taking of a spike or a deer with one side forked antler and a single antler on the other side. If the 5X0 had a nub showing of hard antler then he would fall into that category and would be legal to kill.

Saw this last year in Erath county, young hunter took a deer main frame 4 point on one side, main beam on other broke off and brow tine broke off so was not 1" long, so was a 5 point. Deer should have walked, but as the game warden said " I don't like this, but legally he was taken within the current laws"

perhaps there has been a misunderstanding.



does the law state a 13" spread or that the deer must be 13" tall?


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sorry guys, i just can't stop myself sometimes, my mom still beats me for it, but my daddy's pretty much given up....

One can never, ever be prepared for what tasunkawitko might say. But you can be assured that he will find a way to inject humor into the conversation...

ps-The 13" tall ruling only applies to our somewhat rare jackalopes.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tasunkawitko:
perhaps there has been a misunderstanding.



does the law state a 13" spread or that the deer must be 13" tall?

From TPWD web site,
"Under the new regulation, a lawful buck in the designated counties is defined as any buck having at least one unbranched antler OR an inside antler spread of at least 13 inches. The bag limit in the affected counties will be two lawful bucks, no more than one of which may have an inside spread of greater than 13 inches."

bobby - glad you took it in the spirit in which it was given.

as you may recall, my work is in insurance claims, and just yesterday i was talking to a representative yesterday from a company in the dallas area. one of our clients (and, by extension, his client) up here hit a deer and caused quite a bit of damage to his vehicle - the damage was just under 10k$. the poor fellow in texas asked, "what the hell are you guys feeding them up there?"

conosidering some of our past conversations, you can imagine what flippant replies might have come out of me about what they HADN'T been eating, but i decided just to say that they mostly eat whatever they find on the prairie as well as alfalfa or any grains that a farmer happens to be growing and that even the does can be far over 200 lbs and well on their way to 300. we finished the conversation with a nice discussion on the impressive racks that can be found both in montana and texas.

We've had it in our part of Texas for two years now and it is a very good program, not perfect, but then what is when you are dealing with thousands of humans killing deer?

PS: The beauty of the program is that it allows hunters to kill one or two spikes, if they're only after meat, or one spike and one 13 inch plus deer. It is quite EASY to judge 13 inch deer with a minimum of education. It definitely increases the age of the bucks taken and gives many more hunters a chance at a bigger buck.

Finally, it has been running in Central Texas (Bobby Tomek's area) for at least 5 years now and is a proven success.

quote:

If Texas needs to produce bigger deer why are so many out of state hunters coming here year after year to hunt? If we need a 13inch rule why not make it 14 or more inches?

Because this rule protects MOST of the 2 1/2 year old and younger bucks and allows them to grow up, making for a vastly improved experience for hunters who can now have a chance of harvesting a larger buck.

quote:

Obviously a skinny necked, narrow shouldered, short nosed buck is not as old as his sway backed, thick neck, long faced grandfather.

In my experience a short nosed (roman nosed) deer is a mature buck. Deer with long faces tend to be younger deer. Trying to have average people age deer on the hoof would be an absolute disaster. When people don't have a hard and fast rule they will shoot first and claim ignorance later. Age would of course be the best method to use but would be a real problem for the game wardens to enforce.

quote:

Further, when was the last time you saw any government program work in 2 years?

This program is one of the few that has worked. You are a bit off though as we have been under the program for six years. Our Cooperative management has been going on a lot longer. The problem was that there were always landowners inside the cooperative that wouldn't join and let their hunters shoot anything that walked. So this was a way to have them conform. It was fun being in on the ground floor watching it take shape.

quote:

The point is that any buck accidentally, or on purpose, that is killed that doesn't make the 13inch rule isn't gong to be reported. Therefore the data collected is flawed.

Not true. Sure there are some outlaws who are going to poach but you would be surprised how many illegal deer are brought into processing plants. The first year or so of the program only warning tickets were issued. I know this to be true because my inlaws own a processing plant.

quote:

However, Dad has been able to take his kid out hunting. It's rifle season and a young 6pt buck walks out that is, by no means, a buck that will grace the cover of the TTHA journal but he is a buck nevertheless.

The dad can teach his son that hunting is not about having to kill something to have a sucessful hunt. He can teach his son that good things come to those who wait.

A good deer in my home county (Colorado)used to score around 120 or less. Since the antler restrictions have been in effect I have been fortunate to shoot two bucks that scored 162 and 147. I never dreamed of shooting bucks of this caliber in Central Texas. It's not the best solution for all counties in Texas but is sure is working where heavy hunting pressure occurs. Here are pics of the mounts.

I pretty much agree with everything M16 said. What I hear from the people living in the counties that have had these restrictions is almost all very positive.

I've hunted "antler restriction" counties, and have seen an increase in the number of decent bucks (3 1/2 year olds, mostly) on the national forests and open-to-public WMAs. I'm having more encounters with deer (both bucks and does). Personally, I'd like to see the "you can shoot a 13" wide buck or a spike" rule changed to just the mature deer - My home county isn't an antler restriction county, but right around my place, we have a lot of fawns born really late, which consistently produce spike antlers their first year. Spikes in many cases appear to be later bloomers and/or poorly nourished.

Anyway, I had some of the same concerns that have been expressed here. In particular, my wife has a large mature buck (her best one, actually) with only a 12.5" inside spread . . . but its scores close to 140". Looking through the record books, there are a few B&C bucks with very narrow inside spreads as well. I asked some folks I know at TPWD about it, and they said that the warden could use his judgment about such cases, and that no warden that they knew would issue a ticket for an obviously mature buck with a really narrow spread.

I know that doesn't answer the questions about the "cull bucks" that appear from time to time, but I would suggest that if you had such a concern that you call your local game warden before the season starts and see what he says.

I am not sure where the voice of reason has anything to do with this emotional discussion on deer management. Paaleeease.

Really do you think actually setting down and discussing anything with a State game warden will accomplish setting guidelines in which all parties could abide by???

As stated before The only issue I have with the restrictions is the ability to take a inferior mature deer that does not fit the written description outlined by the TPWD. If they would amend restrictions to include in writing something as simple as any deer not meeting these restrictions must have aged verified to be 4.5 years old or older through aging teeth.