Just returned from my annual deer/elk hunt in CO. Weather was very warm and dry so our party had limited success.
My son was lucky enough to collect a very nice mule deer, made a helluva running shot too!
We jumped the buck out of a patch of oak brush and the boy shot him angling away from about 40yds. The bullet entered the back of the chest cavity area, minced the liver and went forward catching the off side lung. It did not exit. the der ran about 40yds and collapsed.
Was this great performance or a bullet failure? the bullet in question was a 140gr Hornady BT. While the result speaks for itself, what would have happened if that deer had been an elk?

John,

By the way you asked the question you probably have a pretty good idea of the answer.

With the liver shot up the elk will die, but it might take from a few minutes to an hour. With one lung down, a mature elk that has it's adrenaline pumping can cover miles, and a rifle shot from close range will definitely get it's adrenaline pumping. On the other hand, with a small deviation in impact point the bullet might hit a rib going in causing considerable shrapnel damage to both lungs. The elk in this case might drop very soon.

So, the answer is in the full range of results, from dead very quickly to chase it for miles.

The lesson is to reduce as many variables at the moment of truth with better skills, technique, and equipment so that you lower the likelihood of the bad outcome.

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Warren Jensen

Warren@lostriverballistic.com
lostriverballistic.com

[This message has been edited by Warren Jensen (edited 11-09-2001).]

Reminds me of something a bullet maker says, "At what point did the bullet fail as it killed the animal?"

Advertising photos of perfect bullets are often lab photos...real life is sometimes different. Dead animals don't give back failed bullets.

I'm amazed that the bullet did not exit at 40yds. All I shoot through my 270 is 130 grain Remington CL's - and that bullet would definitely have taken the far shoulder off on the way out on a shot such as you describe. I would have expected that your bullet would hold together even better than the Remington.

What's the velocity of your load? Given the minced liver, did the bullet just blow up at impact? How much bullet did you actually recover?

I only use Hornady's in my 8 X 57's and I have noticed that this bullet tends to separate from the jacket when shot into newspaper. The penetration is still fine. The weight retention isn't great. I think in this case though, the bullet is not designed to be doing the just over 2900 fps that I'm pushing them. In your case, the 140 grainer should be expected to perform in that velocity range.

In any case, your son hit the liver and you didn't have a tracking job.

Do give us the specifics so that all of us here can mull them over - and start an argument

Congrats to your son, by the way.

The bullet's muzzle velocity was 2950fps, which might have led to it's failure to exit at this range. No major bones were hit, just clipped a rib bone going in. We did not wade through the internals to find what was left of the bullet, sorry! We did inspect the organs as we removed them, with the offside lung being minced a bit, but not to the extent that the liver was.
It obviously did it's job but without it hitting any major bones I would have expected an exit. Years ago I used the 130gr Hornady in this rifle and never failed to get an exit on deer or antelope. Hmmm..

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 11-09-2001).]

Sounds O.K. for a factory boatail at fairly close range. A one shot result is difficult to assess. I have had many such shots with factory bullets and various aftermarket bullets where no exit took place or only fragments managed to exit, especially with boatails.

Without being able to examing the evidence personally, it sounds to me that the bullet performed its job as well as could be expected, under the given circumstances.

If the shot was more like 100 or 150 yards, I would not be surprised to hear that it exited.

That experience will help if you are considering using the same load while elk hunting. I would expect adequate penetration for a quick, clean kill, but only if given a decent angle. I would wait for an opportunity for a sure double-lung shot.

Please pass my congratulations on to your son.

Canuck

Some idiot at Sierra was the one who made the statement "at what point in the animals death did the bullet fail" and he should have been fired on the spot as that is the most assinine reply I have ever heard from a Company rep...Mostly I would have had to reply to him "when the 2nd and 3rd bullets hit him"....

Bullet failure is a concern to any intelligent hunter, wheather the animals is killed or not..

Johns bullet would have probably failed on a bull elk under the exact same circumstances if the liver had been missed..A one lung elk will live a very long time and may even survive in cold weather..bottom line is angling shots are for larger calibers like the 200 gr. bullet in an 06 or 300, and a 338 is just that much better. these guns have the penitration to do a workman like job on the big animals,allthough I would bet a 160 gr. Nosler in a 270 would lay and elk down pretty fast with Johns shot, but going stright away requires the above big boys IMHO.

What would have made Johns bullet perform better would be 2500 FPS, as 2900 plus is a little rough most bullets at those ranges, thats where a Nosler pays off, even though it will probably blow the front off at that speed, the base would have probably gone out the other side at that velocity. I still like two holes.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Velocity isn't always a good thing. A bullet at a moderate velocity 2200-2500 fps will penetrate more than the same bullet at 3000 fps. Granted the 3000 fps bullet will do a lot of peripheral damage but still not penetrate as far as the slower bullets. This is courtesy of the Barnes Bullets guy, Randy. We had a long talk about this at SCI in Reno a few years ago. He mentioned its like jumping into water from 10 feet or 50 feet. Strange analogy.
Why do you think those old African rounds that shot heavy for caliber (High SD) at a moderate or even slow velocity killed so well? Because they penetrated.

I think the muley was a great shot and one bullet on one animal doesn't make much of a statement. Did you possibly hit the stomach? That will REALLY slow a bullet down.

I agree 110% With Mr. Jensen too. I have chased elk with one lung gone as well as liver damage from bad shots. Luckily our cover is sparse timber to mostly open prairie so one seldom loses one. They can really go a long ways on one lung. Especially if the adreneline is UP before the bad shot.

Interesting thread..........FN

Interesting responses, and pretty much what I expected!
The ammo was handloaded, just for the record, and the shot was taken by my 15yr. old son. It was a nicely executed shot too, the angle of the shot dictated the placement.
Overall, I surely cannot condemn the performance, but I would never use this or any other non-premium bullet on larger game from a high velocity round like a 270. For deer or an antelope it makes a very good load and one I/we will use again.

John,

Welcome back.

You may recall last year I posted report on 270 140 gr TBBC recovered from antelope shot quartering facing my buddy who made shot at about 150 yds.

Bullet blew 5-6 inch hole in last three ribs and was recovered inside hip bone with three of four X petals blown off and the remaining one laid back along its solid shank.

Good performance for a little bullet that blew up three-four ribs. Very tough shot for any bullet to hit multiple ribs.

Rich Elliot commented on Hunt America, "Well, I guess that eliminates a cape mount."

My dad killed upwards of 50 big elk from 1948-63 with a 270 loaded with 150 gr Noslers. He switched to a 300 weatherby after that using 180 gr Noslers. Killed alot of elk with that outfit too.

You could choose your elk back then, and not so nowdays.

the Boat Tail is a mechanism to promote jacket core separation, and that is why you did not get an exit probably.

Ill bet your 130 gr was a flat base.

Beleive me it makes a difference.

My 25-06 with 100-115 noslers and 115 TBBC exit deer from similar angle (including the off shoulder), and 264 with 140 gr Power Point.

Ill send you a picture of that 140 gr TBBC if you like.

Andy

Andy-
I suspect your theory on the BT part is correct, that's been my assumption all along! Yes, those 130s were flat based and if they made their 140s in that fashion I would have picked them over the boattail design. Never have liked or seen the need for a boattailed hunting bullet.

I say damn fine shootin' on your sons part.

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To be old and wise.....first you have to be young and stupid!