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one of us |
Hi All, On surfing on the net I have seen that both lever action rifles manufacturers (Marlin and Winchester) have listed more and more lever action rifles with handgun cartridges. Winchester has .44 Mag and .480 Ruger I see nearly no interest in that way. For a hunter these rounds a "anemic" if we compare to rifle cartrigdes velocity. I wouldn't go with these lever action rifles for hunting. I'd like to know your opinion on that. Thanks. ------------------ | ||
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| One of Us |
I think a lot of this is traditional. Winchester was smart enough to offer their rifles in 44-40 over a hundred years ago because 44-40 was so popular in the colt single action army among other handguns. People still like this. Obviously, a hunter can be more accurate with the carbine and it is easier to keep track of and acquire ammo if you are only looking for one type. I think these folks that hunted the "real" west would laugh at our obsession with velocity and bullet construction. I think they would tell us to quit relying on the technology and get closer to place a good shot in the first place. In other words they would tell us to "hunt"! JMHO, JohnTheGreek | |||
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| one of us |
BER007, I can see several reasons. One that comes to mind is that handgun calibers are inexpensive to load for when compared to rifle calibers and could provide plenty of practice (lead bullets)for those who hunt with similar rifles,e.g. lever actions. Also if you remember the old west days, revolvers and rifles could be in the same caliber, e.g. 44/40. For a person who hunts in areas with limited range shooting the 44mag in lever action or semiauto may be the ticket and without much of a problem, load ammo for the same cal. handgun too. | |||
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| one of us |
Ber007. One of the latest shooting sports tp spring up has been Cowboy Action shooting. The people involved in this sport try ro recreate possible shooting scenarios using the weaponry of the period. Ad in the oilden days of the wild wild (?) west, it pays tp have rifle and handguns chambered to the same round, IE 44-40, 38-40 nd now 44 Mag. and .45 LC. Fact is, I have a Winchester 94 in .45LC and it's a lot of fun to shoot. If i were to hunt in an area where the growth was tick, I would not feel too uncomfortable using that rifle on deer and black bear. Don't underestimate the capabilities of s 300 gr. hard cast bullet on game. At approximately 1700 FPS, a 300 gr. Lyman #457191 cast lead bullet hits like a sledge hammer out to 150 yards. I doubt that any well hit deer or black bear could last too long after being hit with one of those. That bullet, BTY, is the same one used in the old 45-60 Winchester black powder round. I used to have an old Whitnetville-Kennedy rifle chambered to the 45-60. With in it's limits, about 1300 FPS, that bullet was pure death on deer sized game. The rifle was sheer death on me as well as it weight almost 12 pounds loaded. They sure were men in those days. Everytime you took tht one hunting, you got a body building work out as well. My load in my Mod. 94, is quite close to the old 45-70 high velocity load. Like I said, don't underestimate handgun loads in rifles. Paul B. | |||
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| one of us |
Hi Paul B, JohnTheGreek and Pathfinder, Of course I'm not against old cartridges like 44-40, 45 LC,... in a lever action for traditional cowboy shooting. But I can't agree it with relatively new cartridges as told in my post .357 Mag, .44 Mag, .480 Ruger,... These cartridges are used to hunt with a handguns. I can understand to hunt a deer with a revolver in .480 Ruger between 50 and 100 yards but not with a rifle in same caliber. I prefer to hunt a deer, bear,... with a .444 Marlin or 45/70.IMHO. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
BER007, Not liking something or liking something is just a personal preference, which for some, myself included, doesn't even have to make sense. And that is fine. However I don't see how you can understand hunting deer with as you said a .480 Ruger in a handgun, yet not with a rifle in the same caliber. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Jeremy, You're right it is just my humble opinion on that. I'm not the only one who thinks like this. It is not to tell I don't like this or that... The lever rifles with these calibers aren't very useful...nothing more. Just for plinking paper target, and I'm not versus that. I'm a big fan of .454 Casull, I have 3 revolvers in this caliber, but I will never hunt with a lever rifle in this caliber. The shooting distance will not be the same. I have 2 Marlin one in .444 and one in 30/30. I love both of them, these are very useful for hunting.IMHO. RGDS. ------------------ | |||
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| One of Us |
Kimmo, Thank God for your countryman Mr. Nobel, a great innovator but sadly tormented emotionally. JohnTheGreek | |||
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| one of us |
I routinely carry a Winchester Trapper model in .45 Colt. Why?? Because its just enough for what I need. Much more accurate than a pistol. And VERY handy. The big question to me that I do not think I will ever figure out......Why RIFLE cartridges in a HANDGUN?? Not talking .221 fireballs, but .308's, .300 win mags, even .375 H&H's!!! Honest! I saw one once! Tell me WHY on that one. | |||
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| one of us |
I'm at a loss to understand the reasoning behind shooting a rifle with a chopped barrel and sawed off stock and calling it a pistol. Truth be told these things shooting the .308, 30-06 etc. are rifles even if they technically fit the definition of a pistol. Likewise, I don't see the reason to shoot a pistol cartridge in a rifle when there are so much better choices available. There was a practical reason behind it 125 yrs ago when metallic cartridge science was in it's infancy but in this day and age there's no practical reason for it when true rifle rounds are so much more efficient. However, practicality is often overshadowed by personal likes and I'd be the last person to say one shouldn't shoot a pistol round in a rifle if that's what you want to do. Recognize it's limitations and enjoy the shooting. | |||
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| one of us |
I own several such guns. i have shot a boar with the .44 mag from a Smith 6". Although the rather anemic Magtech JSP ammo, it was quite impressing! As much as I like handgun shooting, I do a lot better with a rifle - as does anybody else. Stalking ( pirschen ) with such a handy rifle, and getting really close to the game is pure hunting! Up to now I did not manage to take any game so, but I keep on trying. I am sure the .44 Mag will do all necessary under 100 yds! Check the .44�s ballistics from a 20" bbl and compare them to a factory loaded .45-70 from Win, Rem, Fed. The .44 is not much behind! I own a Browning 86 Carbine, too, so I can compare. As far as weight goes, there is no comparison!! I like the thought of getting game with a rifle that was made more than 100 years ago the same as now ( well, almost ) more than shooting game at 300 yds with some superultramagnum. Have fun! Hermann ------------------ | |||
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| One of Us |
For chasing stuff and shooting off the ute tray I love my marlin .44, gives me 9 shots and awsome killing power on the thin skinned stuff I shoot. Dying to try out the hornady 300gr xtp's I just loaded. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Because they work at short and moderate ranges with very little recoil and costs. And they are very fun having taken more then one head of big game with hand gun cal carbines they do work. No they are not the rifle for general hunting but they do work. | |||
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| <allen day> |
Frank, you bring up a question that begs to be asked, alright! As far as handgun cartridges in rifles, well, I think it's a great concept. If anyone ever gets the chance to work with an original Model 92 Winchester in .44-40, they fall in love with the rifle and the cartridge - it's that simple. With this sort of setup, you get a rifle that's nearly as handy as a handgun and a whole lot more accurate and easier to use effectively for most people, without being over-powered. You also get a rifle that hits much harder than any .22, can be used for many of the same purposes that you'd use a .22 LR or .22 magnum for, plus you can effectively take deer at short range, and it's not overly noisey, either. Quite a little package! AD | ||
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| one of us |
Dear fellows, Well...well...well... very interresting replies. I have seen custom Bullberry barrels up to .458 Win Mag for T/C pistol with BBl 16". Why not have a rifle???...don't know. But this in not the topic of this post. The reason why I have posted this subject comes from this following article. This is for .45 COLT. http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/dissolving.htm I have a few questions on handguns cartridges used in a lever rifle. What is your loads for these rounds? More-same-less powder than in a revolver with the same caliber. What is pressure in CUP with these cartridges in your lever action? In fact more than in a revolver. What are primers used for these rounds? Small pistol primers (normal or magnum) have been used for low pressure loads less than with rifle primers. It is the reason why we use SR primers for .454 Casull loads. What about the chamber of Model 94 from Winchester? With my 2 cents experience on reloading, I could be wrong, I will be more confident for hunting purpose ONLY with a revolver like a Ruger, FA, Linebaugh,... with very hot loads than with a lever rifle with same loads or a little bit less powerful. Exemple: with a .45 Colt Linebaugh custom revolver you can hunt all animals which walk on the Earth Planet even Cape Buffalo. This with correct loads, great cast bullet and reasonable shooting distance. But with a lever in .45 Colt this thing are not possible. Don't be upset of that, you can contact Jonh Linebaugh if you don't believe me. I'm waiting your reply to specific questions listed up. Thanks. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
You are correct, you can operate at higher pressures in a good revolver than in a normal lever gun. However, I know that if you shoot the same load out of a 6 inch revolver and a 16 inch lever action the lever action will give you more velocity. In regards to your question about loads I think a lot of people shoot the same loads out of both. That is part of the appeal. You can have a .357 snub nose in the house, and a lever gun that shoots the same ammo that you can deer hunt with. Although not on this board there are plenty of people who don't reload and only buying one kind of ammo is attractive. ------------------ | |||
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| <allen day> |
I don't care what Mr. Linebaugh has to say about the subject. If I want to really hunt cape buffalo instead of make a game out of it, I'll use a RIFLE chambered for .375 H&H, a .458 Winchester, or .416 Remington. If I want to really hit something with a handgun-type cartridge, I'll use my aforementioned Model 92 in .44-40. Now if I simply must defend myself withn a handgun, I'll take a 1911 Colt in .45 ACP. Those big revolvers are neither fish nor foul in my opinion, but then to each his own! AD | ||
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| one of us |
BER007, There is a good article in the Jan 2002 RIFLE magazine, No. 199, regarding "Sixgun Cartridges in Rifles". The authors findings in a nutshell ....... The .357 and .44 magnums produce 350-650 additional FPS out of a 20" carbine versus a 5 1/2 to 6 inch pistol barrel. Ammunition loaded with slower burning powders, shot from a rifle, will produce a higher velocity and show greater velocity gains over a pistol. And.... The .38 Special, >44 Special and .45 Colt (except +P loads) are usually loaded with faster powders and will produce only 175 to 250 fps gain in a rifle over a pistol. Certainly more to the article but thought you would find it interesting. I carry a .45 Colt in a 16" carbine and use 250 Hornady's almost exclusively. My loads are rather sedate and I get right in the 1500 fps range. It works VERY well on small varmints like coyotes,badgers,skunks, and porcupines out to 100 yds. I once shot a skunk that was nosing around at my 100 yard target! So thats why I know its good to 100 yds. IMHO this little carbine is faster on target than any handgun, I'm surely more accurate and quicker too with lead on target. Carries about ten rounds in the tube and is very easy to carry. I keep the chamber empty and the rifle in a corner in the kitchen. Its always loaded, all one has to do is lever a round in and your set. Regarding the loose chamber in a M94.... mine will not stretch primer pockets, rather hot loads stretch the brass to a point that doesn't allow them to be slipped into the shellholder. Apparently the case heads expand excessively when the pressures are too high. In MY rifle anyway. I have no need for 1900 fps .45 Colt loads out of my rifle. If so, I buy a .45-70 lever gun and I'm there. But I guess you can push the Colt up to that point. For a guy wanting the moost from a pistol round I think the .44 mag would be the best way to go. The case should stand the pressure better than the .45 cases do. I have sent out many copies of articles, but Belgium is a bit far. Possibly Wolfe Publishing's site, they do Rifle and Handloader magazines, may have this article. Frank N. | |||
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| one of us |
Hi Frank, Belgium is not so far as you tell. If you have a scaner, you can send me by e-mail (see my e-mail address in my profile). In other hand I can take contact with you through your e-mail, in order to arrange somthing for these articles, it is up to you. I'm open and curious in this field. I have order 2 books ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
allen day, You need to open your mind. Of course I agree with you regarding calibers used for cape buffalo I will use my .458 Lott for it and not my revolvers in .454 Casull. For my self defense I use a Walther p99 in 9mm and not my big bore revolver. But John Linebaugh's business is only big bore revolvers custom. So it is only his own test with his revolvers that's it. I don't want to impose John Linebaugh point of view, it is just to inform you on his research.RGDS ------------------ | |||
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| <Fat Bastard> |
Lots of those pistol-caliber lever-action carbines are being bought for cowboy action shooting (there, I can understand the .357, .44 & .45, but the .480??). IMO such a rifle might make the ultimate home-defense gun. Pro: Con: But for hunting, I'd probably step up to a .45-70, too. | ||
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Moderator |
quote: I think one must take that statement with a large grain of salt. I could kill any game animal with a 22 hornet and a 55 gr fmj bullet, however I wouldn't be willing to accept the limits of such a combo. The same go's for the hot sixguns, within their limitations, they are capable of taking any game animal. To say that the same rounds, loaded in rifles are somehow less effective is silly at best. Take a 45 colt +P round, load it in a lever gun, and you have 454 revolver power. The benefit of the pistol round chambered levergun is it is a lightweight compact package, has more "power" then the revolver, and has relatively mild recoil, compared to "rifle" cartridges. I think I just might have to get a 480 lever gun, me thinks a 350 gr bullet at 1700-1800 fps would be a rather effective combo! | |||
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| one of us |
Paul H, I will never take the risk to load a lever rifle with a .45 Colt+P as you said. It isn't my opinion on this, this comes from John Linebaugh himself, see the link of the article. Regarding pressure of these cartridges, a lever rifle is not made to work with high pressure like this hot load. But I agree with you regarding .22 Hornet with a FMJ which are suitable to kill all animals. But in certain conditions : shooting distance, reloading, bullets used,.... ------------------ | |||
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| <BigBores> |
I can understand how some might question the reason for a rifle chambered in a pistol caliber. I own several, let me throw my 2 cents into the pot. I have an original '92 in 25-20 that is a great small game rifle. It is rebarreled and amazingly accurate. I have taken squirrels, rabbits, a javelina, a turkey, and several pests (feral cats, porcupines, etc). I have also used it while calling coyotes, works well when the ranges are SHORT. I have other tools when the ranges are long. I have an original '73 in 44-40 that is mostly for fun, the bore is poor and accuracy is too poor for me to be comfortable using it against live game. It is fun to shoot however. It will keep most shots on a paper plate at 75yds if you shoot them as cast and at low speed. I have a new model '92 in 45 Long Colt. This rifle is mostly for fun and cowboy action shooting. It is light, accurate and very easy to handle. My wife can shoot it comfortably as well. It makes a great "truck gun". I also take it when we go camping, it is mostly for 4 legged critters, coyotes, etc, but with the world the way it is now, you cannot be completely sure no one will come into your camp with hostile intent, robbery, rape, etc. I'm not paranoid about it, just prepared. I also think it would work well as a short range deer rifle, though not my first choice due to my usual hunting habitat is quite open. It would serve in the same tasks as my 25-20 for small game, varmints (close) and pest control. It is also not uncomfortably loud, which is one reason I think my wife likes to shoot it, the other is weight. As for pressure concerns...anything that would give a problem in my modern (new) lever actions would give a problem in ANY production revolver. I have shot some very +P loads out of my new '92 with no problems at all, never sticking on the extraction or anything. I have never had brass problems, but on my hot loads I only use the brass once, and then they go into the "plinking" ammo bucket for low pressure loads. I know the Marlin uses the exact same reciever and bolt on the 44 mag and the 45 LC because I used to have a 44 mag Marlin lever gun and it was stamped 44/45 on the bolt. I don't know about the Win '92, but I would be suprised if it wasn't the same also. So to me, unless like said earlier, I was trying to make a 45-70 out of a 45LC, I wouldn't give a second thought to pressure problems with +P ammo. I am only discussing new rifles here, not 100 year old classics, those I only shoot standard pressure loads in. I also have an '86 new production in 45-70. Great gun and great fun to shoot, but it's not a pistol caliber (well normally). | ||
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| one of us |
BigBores, I'm very happy regarding your post. But be safe with your hot load in .45 Colt+P with you lever action (don't if your hot loads are similar to John Lineabaugh's hot loads). For revolver the cylinder has made in strong steel (as Ruger, FA,...)not chamber of your lever. But it is your choice. Regarding .45/70 caliber, you're wrong, it becomes a revolver caliber, look at below article from Magnum Research. "Magnum's Biggest Finest Revolver, the first and only revolver ever offered by Magnum Research, is carefully crafted in the U.S.A. This all-stainless steel revolver is built to close tolerances to handle the pressure of true big-bore calibers - .45/70, .480 Ruger, .450 Marlin, and .45 Long Colt/.410(not for sale in CA) - as well as .454 Casull, and the unique .22 Hornet." http://www.magnumresearch.com/ ------------------ | |||
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| Moderator |
When one discusses "hot" 45 colt loads, one needs to be specific about what they are talking about. There are the "+P" loads that are specified for use in Ruger blackhawks, redhawks, and t/c contenders, which can be loaded to 32-35 kpsi, not sure what the agreed upon max press is. These loads are perfectly fine in the lever guns, and, with the closed breach and additional barrel length, achieve 454 pistol levels of performance, ie 320 gr cast bullets @ 1600 fps. Now, if one is talking about 5 shooter 45 colts, you are looking at 454 levels of pressure 50-60 kpsi, which is a whole nother ballgame, and those loads should never be used in the conventional 45 colt leverguns, and the reason there is no factory 454 levergun out there. This would get the 45 colt to 45-70 levels. | |||
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| one of us |
Paul H, Thanks very much. You are perfectly right to point out the difference between both .45 COLT+P loads. I appologize to have told Ruger and FA for hot loads in my last post. Since the beginning of this discussion, I have always told hot loads in .45 COLT+P regarding article from John Linebaugh's tests. As I told I hope that people using a lever rifle (new or old) in .45 COLT NEVER uses this kind of loads with a pressure over 45000 CUP. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
A 240gr bullet at 1900 fps is "anemic"? I am not sure if your meaning of anemic is the same as mine. And that's a factory load. From a balistic program that I found on the net, that round would have a MPBR of nearly 200yds on deer size (8" vitals) game. [This message has been edited by william (edited 01-18-2002).] | |||
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| <BigBores> |
I was only referring to 45 Long Colt +P loads like you can load in blackhawks, etc. As I said, I have a 45-70 already, I don't need to make my 45 LC try to be a 45-70. As with ANY chambering, if you feel like you have to overload it to the point there is a risk, you need to just by a bigger caliber. I think a 325 gr hardcast going 1600fps (just for reference, I haven't clocked the load yet, might be slower) out of a levergun would be quite formidable at short range, don't you? I have seen the "BFR" 45-70 revolver, all I can say is after the novelty wears off, what the h*ll would you do with it? | ||
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one of us |
The main reason the companies are making the lever guns in pistol calibers is to supply the 40,000+ Cowboy Action Shooters. We shoot steel targets and as a consequence must use all lead bullets loaded to a max of 1400 fps. That way, targets are not damaged and splatter is minimized. Some people will hunt with them for the same reason some people will hunt with handguns, muzzleloaders, and bows--the limitations of the caliber adds to the challenge. | |||
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| one of us |
BigBores, I'm happy that you load .45 COLT+P as Ruger loads. My ultimate revolver that I'm able to handle without problem is a .454 Casull. I don't want and I don't need a revolver in .444 Marlin or 45/70. It is just to let you know that such a revolver exists. I suppose some people are interrested in that kind of over power revolver.Not me. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
william, Don't be upset, when I said anemic, is only compare to Rifle bullet in rifle cartridge. You can compare, a .44 mag in arifle with a .444 marlin. What kind of sowtare program have you? I have seen one name quickLOAD. I'm interrested to have one. ------------------ | |||
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one of us |
quote: Well, I can only give you one reason....Because it's fun!!! I must admit that many years back one of my friends got a T/C in .223 and I mocked him and laughed at him. He gave me box of ammo and turned me loose. I gave him back his empties, his gun, and kept my big grin. It was fun! I picked up a Magnum Research Lone Eagle in 7mm-08 as the deal was too good to pass up. Everyone who shoots it asks to borrow it. I have a 1.5 X 6 scope on it. All I can say is it's a blast to shoot (no pun intended). It's an older one w/o a muzzle brake. Try a big boomer sometime, you may just find yourself looking for one after. | |||
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| one of us |
I will confess to being primarily a handgun hunter where eastern Whitetails are concerned. The pistol calibers you are talking about are much more effective than their paper ballistics would indicate. This would be even more true when used in a rifle. A heavy flat nose hard cast bullet like the LBT designs when fired in a strong 44Mag,45 Colt, or 454 Casull will kill ANYTHING if the shooter does his part. The limiting factors when using a handgun are range and bullet selection. While these handguns are deadly at far longer ranges than many people believe, the closer the better. Bullet selection is also far more critical than with rifles. All that being said, for dangerous game or shots at any extended range I still would prefer a rifle. | |||
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| one of us |
JBD, I have read a hunt report from John taffin, who explained with a .454 Casull a cape buff was killed with a very good penetration inside it. Regarding dangerous game I'll prefer my .458 Lott rifle as said in other reply. Have a look in Reloading section, my new post regarding velocit Vs pressure for handgun cartridges. This is a copy of article from Sixguns ------------------ | |||
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| <bearguide> |
Kimmo E- Not to nitpick, but Nobel didn't invent smokeless/nitrocellulose powder. I believe a French fellow did, can't remember the name. Nobel added nitroglycerine to existing nitrocellulose powder. This is what we now call double-base powder. He did invent dynamite, however. | ||
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| <Slamhound> |
I'm glad somebody finally got around to pointing out that you don't need to run at Casull pressures to approach the same velocities out of 45 Colt in carbine length barrels as you do in a [normal] revolver length barreled w/ the 454 Casull cartridge. One thing i would like to add, however, about the tendency for people to think that just because you have a lower muzzle velocity with a handgun [compared to what would normally be considered a rifle round] that one needs to get closer and closer to get necessary penetration. You may need to close the distance for accuracy sake, but bullets will usually penetrate better a ways 'downrange' even though the velocity will be less [especially with 'hard targets'] because the projectile still needs time [read: distance] to 'settle down' after leaving the muzzle. A yawing bullet is apparently prone to 'keyhole' upon impact with usually a reduction in penetration. I've shot into the end of still 'green' pine logs at the 'standard' combat distance of 7 yards with a large caliber handgun only to find the bullet embedded quite sideways just below the surface, able to be pryed out with a knife blade while the same load fired into the same log from 100 yards will leave nothing but a hole and the projectile buried deep inside out of sight. I'm sure this effect is somewhat dependent on the bullet/barrel-twist relationship [and after a point the bullet will probably start to become unstable again?] but i think the effect is basically present all the time... just to different degrees. I also think this could actually partially account for the death of a hunter a while back in a wilderness area near where i live when said hunter was mauled by a charging Grizzly. According to his eye-witness [former] friend, when he fired his 7MM mag at the charging griz at a range of about 15 feet [as it came out of 'nowhere', of course] the bears progress [and life] was for all practical purposes completely unhindered as the bullet "blew-up" on impact and created nothing more than a superficial flesh wound [that no doubt pissed-off the already angry bruin even more?]. Granted, that projectile obviously wasn't designed to impact at that velocity but i have no doubt that it would have performed better if it had had time to 'settled-down' in flight before impact. | ||
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| <Daryl Elder> |
I'm not sure I saw any replies that pointed out that at one time, when guns, both hand guns and rifles, were used as tools in everyday life for hunting and survival. Having both(all) your firearms chambered for the same cartridge only made sense;why carry one cartridge for your hand gun and one for rifle? If the need was immediate and close, handgun. If one had time and distance was greater, rifle. If it was a combination, say starting at a great distance and then becoming more impending, both without worrying if one had the correct cartridge in hand to reload either one. | ||
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| <Speedy> |
I used to shoot my .44 Mag revolvers a LOT until my arthritis started not liking the recoil generated by the handguns. I wound up with a few thousand rounds of .44 ammo and no good way to use it. I picked up a Marlin .44 rifle basiclly to just "shoot up" the stuff. I had a local gunsmith trim the barrel down to 16.5". This has become my favorite fun gun and the one that I most often carry when walking in the woods (which I do for a living). About the biggest thing I am likely to run into around here is a Black bear and a 300 grain 44 would do as well or better than almost anything else. It is short, light, has little recoil and will stay "minute of milk jug" out to 100 yards off hand for me. I still use a bolt gun for my hunting but this is my favorite gun to pack around. ------------------ Rick Never volunteer. Trust no one. Expect sabotage. | ||
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