I was just wondering why one would shell out $3,000-$4,000 for a mint Pre-64 M70 when one can purchase a modern M-70 classic for $500-$700. Besides collectors value, are there considerable functional differences?

I own a modern M-70 classic stainless featherweight in .270, and it is more beautiful and accurate than many very expensive customs. Because of this, it is hard for me to accept the notion that the workmanship or quality of the old winchester mausers is substantially better than the modern winchester mausers.

Looking for any input and discussion on the topic.

The "old" Model 70's are/were built better than the new ones, at least IMHO. Built the way that they're supposed to be.

To me there's nothing quite like the sound and feel of the bolt closing on the originals. Plus they just look "right."

It's all subjective of course.

Tim

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What we detest most in others is what we fear most in ourselves.

Functionally they are nearly identical. Modern computer controlled machining has made the reintroduction of the pre-64 action economically feasable. Fit and finish is good but not nearly as good as it used to be. In this day and age what is? I own 2 of the new ones and one of the old ones and they all shoot about the same. Personally, I think you are paying for the legend when you buy an old original. However, I rarely see the price differential you are quoting. A pre-64 M70 around here sells for $700-900 in pretty nice condition. Only rarely and in certain calibers do they cost more than a grand.

Basic, fundamental quality is one good reason to buy pre-64 Model 70s, at least in the more common calibers for hunting purposes.

As a former serious collector of these rifles (see Rule's book - I'm listed as a contributor) I can tell you that the days of making a reasonable investment profit on these rifles is past.

The mint, original, high-quality specimens are becoming scarce, and when you do find one for sale, the price is too high to get your money back (find a buyer, basically), let alone make a profit. To me, the guys who are paying top-dollar for mint, rare specimens are fools, and they'll have to sit on their investment dollars for quite a few years in order to make it pay, and even at that, the same money would do better in some other investment. This isn't the mid-1960s to the mid-1980s..........

AD

I just bought another pre-64 M-70 shooter. I am not a collector.

I paid $700 for a .300 H&H in very good shape and got a $100 worth of dies and ammo with it. This rifle has style. That's why I bought it. Now style does not count at all when the bullet leaves the barrel but the look of this rifle pleases me. I have one laying here on the rug next to me as I type this. Once in a while I pick it up and work the bolt. This is what owning a pre-64 is about.

I really like the featherweight style stocks on the newer ones however. And the new "classic" models are sweet but they have a 3 piece bolt and my old ones have a forged bolt.

Collectors prices are just that. They make no sense to me but they are the real world.

I recently purchased one of each of the 2 rifles you refered to.
The New Supergrade in 264 Mag had major headspce problems, would not chony more than my 6.5x55 and best accuracy was 2.5". It is now at the Win Factory for a new tube/Rifle.
The workmanship on these new units is so bad I will likely never buy a new rifle again.
I paid 900$ Can without glass
The other new unit is a Pre64 300 Win Mag that I bought for 850$ can with a 3-9 leupold
Accuracy is 1.25"( first loads used and the finish, fit and balance is better than the supergrade. I know I got a steal but there is just that much more care put into making these old rifles that makes them better. Perhaps there are some brand new rifles out there that have TLC, but they are not up here!I have found that any rifle made more than 5 years ago from all makers has really went downhill and price uphill. With so many old guys quitting hunting, there are still lots of jems up here if you have patience and know what you are looking for.

BR

I still like the pre 64...Winchester is haveing some real problems with the new rifles and it nothing but poor quality control and the main problem has been barrels being screwed in crooked...the design is excellent, but mass production is the culprit..I saw on the other day at Belks and the bolt wouldn't close from the factory gun and rebarreled it still wouldn't close. Brockmans has had the same problem, crooked barrel threads.

I have one of the new control feed m-70 in a 416 Rem and I really like it but it was an early one before the changed the magazine..

When they get these bugs out they will have a very good rifle and the FWT. stock is a fine design...

The "bean counters" are the grimlins in todays gun manufacturers, they are the culprits. When these companies go bankrupt they just can't understand why??

A good pre-64 can be had for $500 to 1000. depending on caliber..

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I thnk it's largely sentiment, though its argued the oldies are better functionally. ALso, some people may be attracted to the slightly different aesthetics of the pre-64s; more drop in the stock, sometimes a monte-carlo, differnt bolt-handle, iron sights. an uncle of mine has one in 270 with, i think, a Weaver K2; great cond since he doesn't hunt (I don't know why he has it really). Nice piece.

I own both. I have a current production 375 H&H. It is a very good shooter now that it was bedded. The workmanship on the stock, especially where the recoil pad is attached is lacking. The boltface is a little rough and shows too many machining marks but does not seem to affect its function. I briefly owned a current production M70 308. The boltface was the roughest I (or my gunsmith) had ever seen and cartridges had a tough time sliding into place. It literally looked like someone shoved it in a grinder. Also, I agree with Ray about barrels being screwed on crooked. This rifle shaved brass when chambering. I no longer own this rifle.

My Pre 64 3006 is a low comb straight stock. Shoots great. Workmanship is great.

My Pre 64 375H&H is a 1939 low comb straight stock and came with the little Lyman Alaskan scope with the uncovered external adjusters. Shoots great.
Workmanship is great. The barrel, in my opinion, is a little heavier contour than is needed.

I do believe that the workmanship in the Pre 64's is much better than the current production rifles. Not that the current models are bad, but I would look one over real good before buying one.

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RC

[This message has been edited by rcasto (edited 03-19-2002).]

I pwn nothing buy late model copies of the Pre-64. I used to think the same thing-what's the big deal? Until I saw one and worked the action. As smooth as a baby's bottom. I should have bought it. Cussing myself becasue I didn't. It was gone off the dealer's shelf the next day.

I just bought my first Pre-64 yesterday. (I've always shot Rem M700's, and still will). It's been rebarrelled with a #7 Douglas 4 groove air-gaged SS barrel in 308, wears a Marksman stock, and has a set of Redfield Olympic sights on it (along with scope blocks). This particular rifle was owned by a good friend of mine who also does all of my gunsmithing. Two years ago, when it had a grand total of 71 rounds through the barrel, he loaned it to me to shoot in a state sniper championship. I happened to win that match. I was the only shooter there with a wood-stocked rifle. Ever since that weekend, I've thought of how smooth that action was. Not long ago, it was offered to me in a deal. (I think he knew I had a soft spot for that particular rifle). We came to terms, and it's now in my safe.

Yeah, I love my M700's, but I gotta admit, this is one sweet rifle. It's set up with a forend rail, handstop, sling, etc. I'm gonna use it in 600 yard matches.

Atkinson are you talking about cocked barrel threads in the receiver ring, out of line with the axis of the bolt? I've rebarreled over 20 of the New control feed Winnies & havn't run into this situation. All the receiver faces were out of square a few thousandths but this is the case with all mass produced bolt guns. I also have a funny habit of spinning the factory barrels that I pull between centers in the lathe just to see whats going on. The Winnie barrels have shown to be more concentric that others but Sako being the best & most consistant in that regard. Just courious as always.

Doug

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NRA Life member

AND NOW THE REST OF THE STORY......... the truth of the matter is that the tooling at Winchester was so antiquated and worn that few parts would readidly mate. Each assembler would keep a box of the different kinds of parts at hand and would search thru it trying to find one that was close to fitting with a minimum of hand work. But still, by the time the rifle was completed, a great deal of hand fitting and work had gone into the rifle. So basically, what you were getting was a custom made rifle at a production rifle price.
Had it not been for the model 94 and the movie industry, Winchester would have gone busted much sooner than they did.
Is a pre-64 "better" than a modern version? I don't think so but nostalgia is worth a lot to a lot of folks so its a judgement call.
That's why some folks will tell you a 7x57 is vastly superior to a 7-08 but in truth, the superiority is above their ears.

In all good humour. As a Connecticut resident I heard that there had never been a pre-64 shipped to West Virginia!

cuz they're cool Seriously, I just picked up a 300H&H, right before Christmas for $600 at a gun show. I haven't got around to finding out what year it is exactly, the guy I bought it from just had it listed as "pre-war". If you're seeing $3000 to $4000 price tags, they may be one-offs or special in some way, or you're shopping in the wrong place.

Let me clarify this price thing...I indicated in the original post, the going price for a MINT pre-64 rifle (unfired, 100 percent condition) in a desirable configuration is several thousand dollars. I have looked at a number of gun auction and dealer pages, and that's the going rate.

Now you can buy abused, battered, common, or modified pre-64's affordably, and that's a different deal. Maybe then its worth the nostalgia. And I confess, it would be sweet to have a good old '06 supergrade in really nice condition. But then it becomes closet art and you'd have to be insane to take it afield.

Don Martin, I'm actually an old Virginia boy. When these folks talk about pre-64, I assume they mean pre-1664.

The idea of a pre-64 Winchester to me is a "riflemans rifle" I am a hunter and a shooter. I want a nice rifle to hold and operate. If I wanted a rifle that was cheaper and functional I would use a Remington 700. I don't "have" to hunt or shoot. I do it because I want to.

Back when the M-70's were made right, in the 50's they cost $120. You have to multiply stuff by 8 times now to equate that to todays dollar so thats $960. Now for $960 they could make the present M-70 Classic with a forged bolt instead of the brazed together thingy and get it to work right and smooth.

This is the same GE type bean counters running USRAC as in 1964. We used to have a choice of a nice rifle and a cheap one. Yes we have the SAKO but that does not have CRF and it's made foreign.

I just want my M-70 back. That's all. I have them in the pre-64's thank you.

The 300 that I bought is pretty close to mint, except for a little "bag wear" on the finish, and I will hunt with it, as I do with all my rifles. I just take care of them.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Battle River:
[B]I recently purchased one of each of the 2 rifles you refered to.
The New Supergrade in 264 Mag had major headspce problems, would not chony more than my 6.5x55 and best accuracy was 2.5". It is now at the Win Factory for a new tube/Rifle.
The workmanship on these new units is so bad I will likely never buy a new rifle again.
I paid 900$ Can without glass

Battle River, you cought my attention with this one. Did you happen to buy this rifle from Bashaw, the 264 with gorgeous wood? The reason I ask, if we're talking the same rifle, is that I almost bought it. Good price, awesome stock, New Haven gun. It seemed like a no-lose situation. Too bad about the headspace problems. I hope WW has another 264 barrel to put on for you.

beemanbeeme, you are still wrong, when we talk of pre-64 we mean before the interstate came through as in I-64

Rick-F
This was that unit, I really loved that rifle but as a shooter it was a real lemon. 2850 f/s with head separation and a 3" group was not my idea of a workable unit. I tried everything and gave up. They are talking about sending me a new unit, I hope it was not made by the same idiot as my first one. I really like the handling and feel of this gun but&&^%^%$ they better shape up and get me my SG ASAP.

BR

[This message has been edited by Battle River (edited 03-21-2002).]

Wapiti, EVERY rifle I own gets taken out to the fields and woods and is hunted with. Except, of course, the couple of heavy barrelled jobs I have and they are heavily used. I think anyone that buys a rifle to "look at" or "brag about" is missing a few dots on his dice. Maybe quite a few. A member of the swedish swimsuit team may look great but its what she can do in the kitchen and elsewhere that counts.

beemanbeme, are you serious that what counts in a woman is that she can cook, amongst other things? are you serious or are you that superficial and old-fashioned?

I don't think nostalgia has a thing to do with it..I like the pre 64 better for a number of reasons and one being todays quality control..

Bemanbeme,
I wish you lived close enough to play, I'd own your house in car by tomarrow...I'll bet you dollars to donuts that I can make a 7x57 eat and spit out a 7-08 with 160 and 175 gr. bullets and any bullet for that matter..I have a chronograph, you outhta get one or learn to read.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

"I don't think nostalgia has a thing to do with it"

I do.

While the pre-64 action is a great action, it does have some flaws. The worst, in my opinion, is the inadequate gas handling. That's the main reason I would never build a custom gun on a pre-64 action. The metullargy of the pre-64 action is certainly not up to the new classic standards.

The new classic M-70 actions are very, very well designed actions, the best design the world has ever seen in my opinion. Where they fall short is in the quality control of their manufacture. Winchester could screw up a wet dream, to put it mildly. Quality control is completely out the window and I have no doubt that their quality control inspectors are slightly less competent than the welfare rejects that man airport security these days. Winchester's quality control is simply unacceptable.

However, that doesn't change the fact that the classic action is a superior design to the original pre-64 and I'll just continue sorting through the new classic rifles until I find those with acceptable quality to warrant using the action for a custom rifle.

Boltman-

What criteria do you use to identify a superior modern classic winchester action?

ROFLMAO!!! Ray, uh oh, you've been outside without your hat on again haven't you.
I do have a Chrony. And I do know how to read, if the words are short and monosyllabic.

[This message has been edited by beemanbeme (edited 03-22-2002).]

The M70 is an just another mauser variation. You can get the same action from several other gun makers with little variations in safeties etc for less money.

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From my cold, dead hands!
Thanks Chuck!

Boltman, I pretty-well agree with you assessment of the current Model 70 "Classic". They are indeed great actions, and between the much better gas escape system, better heat-treating, etc., they are fundamentally a better action than the pre-64 version, and that's saying a lot.

I just picked up a used "Classic" Model 70 the other day (for the action) that was in the G117XXX serial number range which is a fairly early one, and made well-before SC production. Even at that, even some of these nice earlier actions can be turkeys. I carefully picked one to the best of my ability a couple of years ago, only to have it discovered that the action screw holes in the receiver were crooked. We had to use another one in its stead.

But in general, these are great actions, and whatever isn't exactly kilter can usually be reworked and corrected by a good gunsmith, especially if you're having a fully custom rifle built.

Now if Winchester (USRAC) would only get rid of that ugly knurling around the bolt knob.....!

AD

Boltman,

What is better about the heat treating on the new M-70's vrs the pre-64's.

Be specific.

When you do I am prepared to discuss withh you the subcontractors who do the heat treating. Tell me if they are ISO certified.

Also be prepared to discuss the pros and cons of a forged bolt vrs a three piece copper brazed bolt.

Thank you for your time.

Easy there Donny Martin, gosh let the man get up off the floor before you kick him in the head again. You know that can cause some serious brain damage! Then how is a person supposed to learn with his eyes crossed and sensor's disconnected?

Howdy all, I am currently helping a widow friend appraise her husbands' collection. He has 2 complete pre-64 70's, both .270, one has been reblued. He also has 8 barreled actions, in .270 and .30 govt. 06. These have the old style safety. As yet I haven't located the magazine, floorplate, trigger guard assemblies for them. I hope they haven't been sent for re-bluing at an unknown gunsmith. Anyway, what is an incomplete pre-64 action worth? Thanks, Gary

BTT

Don what did we do, beat-up one of your sacred cows again?

I suggest that you read Stuart Otteson's book, "The Bolt Action" and compare heat treating plus bolt construction between the pre-64s and the post-64s.

The new actions are better made. Heat treating, bolt construction, and gas-escape systems are major reasons why. The current recievers are straighter as well (minimal warpage). Ask some of the better custom riflebuilders while you're at it - guys like David Miller, Gene Simillion, and D'Arcy Echols.

Believe it or not, all technology didn't stop back in 1963.........

AD

Allen Day,

Nevermind Ottensen. I know the heat treaters! I have seen the work.

It's easy to say they are better but to prove it you go to the rifle. You read what they say here about the general quality.

I don't have any sacred cow's. I like old M-70's yes but I also would like a newer one if it was made right. What I read here is that there have been problems with some of them.

On the other hand I talked to a hunter here who has a newer 70 in .375 H&H. It's his favorite rifle and he has everything in the big bores. He got a plastic stock to replace the wood stock that it came with. I worked the bolt on the new M-70 and it was nice but I know pre-64's and it's no pre 64 by a long shot.

At least the copper braze joint is not just behind the lugs like the 700's!

The "edge" to my comments here go way back to the rifle and the people who made it in 1964. I saw the 3/16" gap on the sides of the barrel-stock joint. The extractors that broke off, the pressed checkering.

And then the arrogant, non riflemen, that made them! And they were proud of getting all of those new parts from subcontractors.

Now they are trying with a "classic" M-70 but meanwhile Ruger has cleaned their clock.

Too bad that Olin sold them. But John Olin died and that was the end of the interest.

I have and hunt with several pre 64's all featherweights. I like carrying and shooting the Riflemans Rifle. The only one I'm lacking is the 264 Win in a featherweight. I have never seen the prices you describe. I recently purchased a 358fwt NIB for less than $2000. All of mine come from the 1950's and IMHO the quality is better than what you see today.

See link:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/search.cg i?complex=1&custom=&lowprice=100000&highprice=99999999&age=0&uid=&words=pre-64&category=2663&state=All

There are a few of the high-priced rifles I am talking about at that link.

Not to mention this one:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/search.cgi?complex=1&custom=&lowprice=100000&highprice=99999999&age=0&uid=&words=supergrade+featherweight&category=2663&state=All

[This message has been edited by Wapi-T (edited 03-27-2002).]