I'm in the planning stage for next year, the 2003 season, and I'm trying to decide between a back country, horse pack in, Mule Deer hunt and a Whitetail Deer hunt in Texas. Anybody got a Texas guide or ranch they'd recommend? Its got to be free range, NO HIGH FENCE. With a reasonable chance at a 140 to 150 class deer. A 4 or 5 day hunt in the $1500 to $2500 range. Sound impossible? Thanks for your help.

Mark,

Finding a 140-150 class deer in Texas at a reasonable price is about as easy as finding a unicorn. Texas Deer hunting is ridiculously overpriced. Yes it can be done, but it aint easy sorting through the BS artists we have in the Texas hunting industry.

I have hunted deer all over Texas for many years; been fortunate enough to hunt some outstanding ranches. Finding a really good deer here is not difficult. Finding a high success, high trophy quality hunt for under $3000 is darn tough.

(On average) A $2500 hunt in Texas will get you a 4-day hunt where a 125 deer is a pretty good possibility with not much of a chance at anything much bigger. (On average)

My opinion is that your money is better spent out West. I have some private ranches in NE Wyoming that will give you a very reasonable chance at a 140 Whitetail. If you like Mulie, you can use your tag on him if find one you like. Lots of deer here. The bonus is you stand a chance of taking one larger than 140. 3-day hunt $2400. Better than anything in Texas under $3000, guaranteed.

I'm from Dallas as well, when I'm not sitting down here. I wouldn't go to Texas for whitetail. Look at what Cabela's has to offer in Kansas and Nebraska. There are some big deer up there and the price isn't Texas-size.

Mark - Texas has many unusal aspects compared to other states as you have already read or heard. What you may not know is that 95%+ of all land in Texas is privately owned and yes it is all fenced. Texas whitetail deer are on average small in size usually less than 100lbs on the hoof. It is usually expensive to boot but success is, in my experience, 100% annually. I hunt on an old friend's ranch. We have known each other all or lives and I am treated like family. If not for that I couldn't afford to hunt in this my home state. Take other's advice look west young man.

That may be true for Texas hill country deer but in south Texas our average field dressed weight on my ranch is 117lb

Mark:

If a chap is interested in hunting whitetail, there is only one place to go-----Canada. Moreover, you will be able to find a hunt in the upper range of your post.

All deer hunting in Canada(Alberta, Sask or Manitoba)will be for wild, unfenced deer under bush conditions..

I have shot deer in Sask weighting over 350# on the hoof( but not many). If luck is with you, horn bases of 5 1/2 to 6 inches can be found.

I would reinforce what others here have said. My daughter and son-in-law live in Texas. Were it not for the fact that his family have a lease, I could not, and probably would not hunt Texas. The deer are plentiful ( as they are in Iowa where I live ) but small. The non-resident tag is quite expesive as well, at $250. You do get to shoot three deer, only one of which can have antlers, but you would get about as much meat off of one good northern whitetail. I hunt there strictly as a family thing, which is as good a reason as any.

[ 05-28-2002, 16:40: Message edited by: 375hnh ]

Yes as stated earlier most of the hunting land in Texas is private and is usually expensive. We are really excited about hunting on a new property in South Texas. The ranch has not been commercialy hunted in 9 years it is 2000 acres and is high fenced. Before the flames start it is the only way to manage your herd here. The bucks will go 170 to 180 lbs. The ranch was flown last year with a helicopter. It has been determined that we take twelve mature management bucks 140 to 150 class and two mature trophy 160 class bucks. The prices will be $2500 and $5500 respectively. Terry@TexasLSO.com

Well...everything posted above is true and not true.

Texas is enormous, you can not generalize Texas as "fenced" or "has small deer". You can catagorize specific areas of Texas however.

No, not all of Texas is fenced. I doubt over 10% of Texas is fenced. If you go into the Hill Country of Texas, you might believe that all of Texas is fenced, but it ain't so. Go to the Panhandle where the Deer are huge, and there isn't a fence in that whole part of Texas. Go to the Big Bend area...no fences. Huge ranches. Mule Deer country.

Central Texas does grow small deer, there are a lot of them to choose from though.

We have outfitters running out of our ears here in Texas. All it takes in Texas to be an outfitter is a truck and a knife. It is not necessary that you know how to use either of them though.

Be careful when shopping in Texas. You can get stung.

I am going to stick to my guns and say Go West for the quality deer hunts.

Just for the record, I'm not bagging on Texans as a whole...only those into "white tail management."

If you have to worry about such terms as "management buck" or have stratified cost structures for the size of the deer you ultimately harvest you should do yourself a favor and look elsewhere.

That kind of crap is a joke pure and simple. Watching those TNN shows with all of the fancy foods and other "management tools" makes me sick. They're simply taking an area that is not naturally up to task to produce "trophy quality" bucks of appreciable numbers and introducing a high cost solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. Does the concept of carrying capacity mean anything in Texas?

If you want a big deer go somewhere where they are found naturally, it's not hard to do...KS, MO, IA, NE, IL, MT, many parts of Canada...

Personally I don't even count any deer coming out of Texas. For every legitimate deer harvested you have many times more that were the result of captivity and their cottage industry feed program. I don't consider that any different than the places offering hunts for non-native big game species from other continents.

If you want to go to Texas why not some fishing, or some waterfowling? Maybe some turkey hunting? At the very least stay away from the fences.

Flame away,

Reed

Aw, come on Reed. Tell us how really feel.

I won't argue the finer points of any of the views put forth above. As was stated before, Texas deer hunting encompasses so many variables there just aren't any valid generalities.

Some of the best and the worst game management practices are put into place in Texas. I was at an outdoor show here in Houston and I heard one guy at a booth telling an exhibitor the he too was in the "deer business". It struck me as a cold description that undermines everything I find important in hunting. Nevertheless, deer hunting is a big business in Texas and it brings all the negative aspects of most big businesses.

Fences can be used or abused as a management tool. But, fences are generally not used to maximize the number of deer but the quality of the herd. Carrying capacity is not the issue on the vast majority of intensively managed ranches.

To answer the original question, $2500 will not buy much of a deer in Texas but what you pay for is pretty much a given. I'd rather do the pack-in muley hunt than sit in a blind watching a feeder for four days.

Percentage wise, extremely little of Texas is high fenced. Those that are high fenced tend to have better bucks because they can control the harvest better for quality deer. I know of bucks from south Texas that have dressed out as much as 230 lbs. but 130 to 180 would be a more normal range on fully mature trophy bucks. Of course the very top of the record book bucks come from up north but south Texas takes no back seat to any place for surefire massive antlered bucks, however they WILL COST!

Some of the posts here remind me of the story of the 4 blind men all describing an elephant from feel. Your opinion depends on which part you've been exposed to.

In general, you can have big deer, or big numbers of deer, but rarely both. The Texas Hill country and East Texas in general have fairly small deer, but you'll see a lot of them. South Texas has good numbers of fairly large deer, but good deer are becoming rare outside of high fences in that part of the state, and yes, prices are steep. Those outfitters that charge by the score will certainly give the hunter the benefit of the doubt when doing the scoring ("if that deer is a 150 then my pecker is 12" long!") However, insofar as high fences are concerned, 10 or 12 thousand acres inside one fence doesn't do much to hinder fair chase.

For a chance at an excellent deer at an affordable price, where there are practically no high fences, the Rolling Plains and Eastern Panhandle probably offer the best opportunities. That's a section of the state outlined roughly as a quadrangle with Abilene, Midland, Amarillo, and Wichita Falls at the corners. This will be a hunt with a relatively low success ratio, and probably self-guided. You can typically get access for a couple of weeks as cheaply as for a weekend, so I would suggest contacting a landowner, scouting his place, and cutting a deal to guide yourself (after all, this isn't the Brooks Range; you can stay in a motel and eat at a restaurant). There are outfitters operating in the area, and some may be very satisfactory, but I can't really recommend any.

By the way, the regular license in Texas has five whitetail tags. Some counties allow only one buck, others two bucks, and a few three. Most counties allow two or more antlerless, with some allowing up to five (some of the tags are "swing" tags). Check www.tpwd.state.tx.us for details.

If your choice is between a horseback Muley hunt and a Texas Whitetail hunt, I think you can come closer to doing the whitetail hunt for $2500, although you can certainly pay a lot more.

I don't do it professionally (and don't want to) and won't take any money for it, but if you decide on Texas and want some help locating the right contacts down here, drop me a line.

If you want a Mule deer hunt horseback and perhaps a Coues Deer with it then the Big Bend of Texas is the place to go..Most ranches are 75 to 150,000 acres...For both Coues and Muleys I suggest the Glass Mountains behind Marathon, Texas....You hunt off the horse and when you spot a deer you get off and shoot it, sound easy? it is if your a cowboy, but if its your first sho nuff horse hunt your in for a surprise and also one of the finest hunts of your life...It's my thang, love it, love it!!

Texas has some of the biggest Whitetail in the world and yes some of the rances are high fenced and inside that fence is the most impenitratible 30 to 40,000 acres you will ever find...Lots of 160 to 200 plus deer come out of there...

Right across the Rio Grande in Old Mexico are some real big bucks that will top the 200 mark and those ranches are very large and some fenced and some not...The fenced ones are the best and they certainly are a fair chase hunt anyway you cut it...

Costs: Some Mule Deer hunts for $1500 and up and whitetail from $3000 to $9500.

A friend of mine has 1800 acres high-fenced in South Texas. He does not supplemental feed in any way, because as he puts it, "You can raise deer on an asphalt parking lot with the right feeding program." He high fenced to control harvest and population dynamics, not to create a feed lot.

But he is not so bold as to criticize those who supplemental feed. He realizes this is a personal decision.

It's always fun to read different points of view on this topic.

My inlaws bought a ranch at the western edge of the Texas hill country about 10 years ago. This property was not "managed" and had no high fences. The population was out of control--there were over 1500 deer on a 4900 acre property. The vegetation across the ranch was being destroyed, which resulted in increased erosion during the few times a year that they got rain. Topsoil in this area is at a premium, by the way.

They put up some high fencing along some property lines, because the neighbors were shooting only bucks, and not removing does--thus hindering efforts to get the population down to a level that the land could support. These were great days if you were a varmint shooter, but no fun if you like to hunt. The state game biologists were telling us that if we see three does, "shoot the closest one and don't let the other two get away."
The climate is such that winter doesn't take out too many deer, so population is either controlled by predation (animal or human), starvation, or contagion.

The fencing question is a tough one. I really would prefer that the places that I hunt not be fenced, but in some areas you may be forced to if you want to have any nice deer. Many local hunters will shoot the first buck they see, so most of the bucks are taken when 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 years old and never have a chance to mature and show their maximum potential for headgear.

Last summer, there was an outbreak of anthrax in the area. This happens every so many years because the spores can remain dormant in the soil. When the anthrax spreads, it tends to take out cattle, horses, and deer. Many of the properties around ours were devastated by the anthrax epidemic, with deer in some spots being virtually wiped out. I am convinced that the ranch was substantially spared by its fencing.

We do not provide supplemental feed on the place, nature can take care of that if it gets a chance. Most of the focus is on the removal of non-native trees (juniper/cedar) and improving access to water. The deer population is now down to a fraction of the previous level, and the bucks have had a chance to grow up and show some nice antlers.

This most fun thing about all of this is that once the vegetation started to come back, so did other animals. The turkey population is way up, we are starting to see some more quail, the dove population is larger, and we are seeing more foxes (red and gray) and bobcats, although the predators are hard on the quail and turkeys. The whole property is healthier than it once was.

So was game fencing worthwhile? For us--yes. Do like it? No, not really. But sometimes you may have to do things you don't like because others are doing things you disagree with.

Need One More Gun gives a real example of using fencing to improve the buck to doe ratio and increase overall quality of the herd. Here's a recent picture from that ranch

Note the lush vegetation and low doe count.

Dang ForrestB,

I first thought that picture was depicting the heated debate over a forum topic?

For some ranchers in Texas, Deer hunting is a cash crop.

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Now here's a perplexing question--if you are working on a deer management program, and see a situation such as Forrest B pictured, which animal do you shoot?

Actually--the game program is so successful that we don't see deer anymore for all of the lush vegetation, and so we poach our animals off the neighbor's land.

Is the top one a clergyman from Rome?

http://www.southtexasguideservice.com/TrophyWhitetailHunting.htm

Here is a link to South Texas Guide Service. This comes pretty close to what you are looking for. I have hunted hogs on the Goliad ranch. Jeremy is a class act:

STGS is currently offering trophy whitetail hunts in Frio and Goliad Counties. All of our deer are free ranging on over 2,600 acres and offer an excellent opportunity to harvest a trophy class Boone and Crockett buck. Trophy whitetail hunting offers some of the most challenging and exciting hunting available. STGS has instituted a strict game management program including genetic management, year round protein feeding and extensive watering systems. This program ensures proper genetics, nutrition, and water. All of which are necessary to grow true trophy class antlers. Our trophy bucks typically range in the 135"-165" class with management bucks ranging from 120"-135". STGS also offers hunts for cull bucks and does.

Trophy Whitetail Deer Hunts (135 + B&C Gross)
$1,000 Access Fee
$1,500 Trophy Fee per buck up to 135 B&C gross
$100 Per inch in excess of 135 B&C gross inches

Good Hunting,

Bob C.

Bob in Tx:

I'm not trying to be critical here, but by "free ranging on over 2600 acres" does that mean that there is a high fence around the 2600 acres? If so, aren't you being a little disingenuous?

I do understand that 2600 acres is plenty of room to make for a good hunt, but if it is high fenced, then they aren't what I call free range deer.

No, it is not high fenced on any side! It is a great ranch in great deer country with a river running through it. If it was high fenced, I would have said so.

ray that was pretty funny about the buck knocking on the back door!!!

Buffalo & Bob in Texas, it is people like you that have ruined deer hunting in my beloved Texas. I can hunt in Alabama for 4 years and 75 days each season. Kill a buck & doe a day if I am luckey. I killed 2 130 class bucks & 3 does in 2001& 2002 season. Spent less than 1K. You can take you trophey fees, kill fees, high fence, guide fees, and what ever else you charge, and put where the sun dont shine. You and your fellow BIG MONEY out fitters ruined hunting Texas for most people. The ranches I use to pay reasonable tresspass fee a have good hunrting have be leased by people like you.When I see people like you at outdoor shows I tell you what I think
Have a Good Day

Displaced

Let's see, two 130 class bucks and three does, all for less than a thousand dollars.

Unless you were hunting on your own or public land, I'd say you found the deal of the century. Was this in Texas or Alabama? Either way, you should consider yourself fortunate, IMO.

Tim

Last I checked, I didn't raise the price of deer hunting in Texas...the market did. I learned it in school...It is called supply and demand. There are nough people willing to pay these prices to hunt a quality deer.

I have no intention of revisiting the "outfitter squeezing out the common man" thread here.

Two thumbs for you in shooting a couple good deer last year. I wish you the same luck next year, and every year from then on.

Not everyone is so lucky as to be able to hunt every day of deer season. Most guys can take one, maybe two weekends a year off to go hunting. They want a quality experience, they are willing to pay for it.

Sorry you can't afford it (or won't pay it which ever the case may be). But I have a little news for you....Hunting is a privilege, not a right. Texas is privately owned, if you can't pay, then you can't hunt here. Yes, it sucks, but what can you or I do about it? Hunt elsewhere.

Things change, it seems you have adapted well to hunting in Alabama. Congratulations. Personally I like Wyoming.

Have a good day sir.

DP,

It is interesting that your first post is just name calling. I am not an outfitter or guide. I am just a hunter who has to pay for a lease (low fenced, I might add) to be able to hunt deer in Texas. All I was trying to do was help a fellow hunter find a hunt in his price range. The ranch I recommended is not high fenced and is fair chase. So.....stick that where the sun don't shine!

By the way, thanks for leaving Texas.

Bob in Tx:

My apologies about the high fence question. It was just the phrasing that lead me to believe that it might be fenced.

Displaced Texan:

I've hunted deer in Texas on and off for nearly 40 years and unless you are personal friends of a ranch owner, or own your own, you have and will have to pay to hunt except for the very rare tracts of public land. And, you have always had to pay day fees, or whatever for a decent chance at a good deer. It has become more structured in the last few years, but as a rancher, I can assure you that a lot of the real ranchers need the money to help make the place work financially.
I don't think outfitters have or are ruining anything, they just allow people with limited time and money the ability to hunt quality animals for a fee. Don't like them, don't use them. I am a big believer in the free enterprise system, it may not be perfect, but it allocates resources better than any other that I know of. And that allocation is done by pricing.

Gatogordo,

No problem.....I understand where you were coming from and why you asked the question.

Bob

Bob in Texas I would like to apologize to you for getting you involived in my post. I thought you were a high dollar outfiter. You are not I was incorrect. Please accept my apology GOOD HUNTING

I do not apologize for my remarks to Buffalo are people in his type of business. They have driven to cost of hunting in Texas out site. I am very fimular with the free interprise system and supply and demand.I have an MBA in business make my living in the business world. I spent 20 years in the military defending our way of life. The best in the world! Buffalo I am 58 years old and adapted to many different places all over the world. I was born and raised in West Texas around San Angelo & Odessa worked on ranches and in the oil field, before I went into the military. I have a 12 point on the wall I killed in Iron county in 1988. Paid the rancher a tresspass fee to be on his land for 5 days. There was 4 of us we killed 2 deer each. We camped by a wind mill cooked our own meals field dressed our own animals. I have hunted all over West Texas, I do have the means to pay your high fees to hunt in Texas but I will not. Your are going to price your self out of the market. Supply and demand will catch up with you. I know Texas is 98% private property. Hunting fees has pulled many a rancher threw hard times. Hopefully some day I will be able to pay the rancher in Texas a good fee and camp by his wind mill and have good hunting. In the good old days anyone from out of state could call a local Chamber of Comerace and get a list of ranchers offering hunting on there property, for a fee but NO MIDDLE MAN involved.

In Alabama the season is 75 days counting bow season.The limit is one buck and one doe a day. I am able to hunt 3 days a week and the last week of the season. Eight of us have timber company property leased. it free ranging no high fence and good hunting.

DT,

Once again, I will say...

I did not raise the price of Deer hunting in Texas. The market did. I did not create the demand, people LIKE YOU demand quality deer hunting. People will pay it. People do pay it.

Some of your comments are out of line or just do not make any sense whatsoever.

You say "I do have the means to pay your high fees to hunt in Texas but I will not."
Did I say I had any hunts in Texas for sale? No, I told Mark to go out West because Texas is too expensive.

I have two Texas Whitetail per year for sale...TWO... they are priced well below the market value at $2100. In a Panhandle county that has produced some excellent South Texas quality deer for me.

You say Your are going to price your self out of the market. Supply and demand will catch up with you.

The market is self regulating. It will adjust price with demand. If no one buys a $3500 deer hunt the price will drop.

Eight of us have timber company property leased. it free ranging no high fence and good hunting.

Are you not contributing to the demand for quality hunting? If someone offered to take your lease for $1/acre more than what you are paying, wouldn't you counter-offer $2 more? The price of your lease was set because of supply and demand.

Blow that chip off your shoulder and and realize that things change.

My favorite deer hunting spot a few years ago is gone to a company lease. I paid the rancher about $300/year to roam all over about 10,000 acres. I helped work his cattle in the spring, I helped paint his house, I would do whatever I could because I knew what it was worth to me. Sure it pisses me off that it is gone now, but I do not go around blaming it on anyone.

Grow up. Why must you be so angry? I was pleasant to you in my first reply, you have yet to be pleasant at all.

[ 06-06-2002, 22:57: Message edited by: Buffalobwana ]

Parshal, two seasons ago it was a buck AND 2 does per day in the Black Belt region because the population was totally out of control. This past year it went back down to 1 of each. The doe season lasts the entire hunting season in that part of the state. In my view buck hunting should be limited to one per season. Of course, the rut doesn't occur until after the season ends (ie, in February) in that part of the state anyway so the season is a bit screwy.

Regarding the whole argument of pay hunts driving out the opportunities for the average Joe to get a deer, I have to say that all my growing up years I had good opportunities to hunt but that since I left home and moved to the north end of the state I have been lucky to get two weekends a year at some public wildlife management area where there are darn few animals and a heckuva lot of hunters. All the land surrounding such places is posted "hunting club" land and its strange how the boundaries shift from year to year. For instance, I finally scouted a fantastic rutted deer trail that could only be approached by descending a 100 ft bluff. I was going to hunt that spot the next year but the whole area suddenly got annexed by the local club. The other location in the Bankhead National Forest is open only two weekends and over the Christmas holidays. I usually can make one of those weekends, but not both and I am at my folks during the holidays. Its infuriating because I have finally figured out where the deer are and there are some real monsters in that place. It requires a considerable hike but it would make the trophy that much more meaningful. I hate easy hunts.

Here's the bottom line. I don't own hunting land. I don't know anyone who does and in this part of the country people don't just let you go out on their land. Anybody who has it, hunts it. I would love to have a place that I could go on weekends and get deep into the woods, but it just doesn't exist. So, in light of my very limited time and the restrictions of public land, I am more than willing to pay in order to get to hunt. One really good hunt a year for a few days will tide me over. There have been seasons that have gone by in which I never got to get into the woods at all for lack of a place or a time. I don't want to pay some exhorbitant rate to sit on a stand and shoot a genetically superior grain fed uber-deer that shows up like clockwork every afternoon at four because that's when the feeder goes off, but I will pay a reasonable amount to get to hunt some real wilderness on my feet on the chance of encountering a trophy.

Mark65x55,

I can't say how much a western mule deer hunt goes for, but for the money that you have mentioned, you can get a nice season lease in the Texas Hill Country. I'm sorry that I don't have any contacts for you though. I like to shoot big bucks too, but I wouldn't get hung up on the BC scoring thing. The experience means more to me than whether my buck will make "the book". I despise high-fenced places. I don't understand what the allure is for shooting deer inside an over-sized pen. Does the thought of shooting cattle or other domesticated livestock also hold an interest for high-fence supporters? As for this "being the only way to manage and grow big deer", that just isn't true. We are seeing bigger bucks on our lease and the adjoining places (all low-fence) because we and our neighbors are voluntarily passing on smaller and younger deer and letting them grow up. You might try around Uvalde. There is a place outside of Uvalde that has deer in the size category which you are talking about, but the place charges around $3K to $4K for a couple of days hunting and it is low-fenced. I was an invited guest several years ago, of a person that had access to the ranch for pig-hunting and fishing and I did see some awesome deer there. I am not in contact with that person anymore, but if you call information in Uvalde and ask for the number to UVALCO; one of the managers there lives on that ranch. Unfortunately, for the consumer, prices are high for hunting in Texas; and prices are also high for shooting penned-up deer too.

first off, ray, there are no coues' deer in texas - the whitetails in the glass mts are "regular" whitetails - same as you would find in the hill country. we do have carmen mt. whitetail, but to the best of my knowledge, there are none outside of the chisos mts in big bend nat'l park.

second, you can find a seson lease where you have a reasonable chance of getting a 140 class buck for around $1500 (that's what i paid last 2 seasons, and i got a 144 gross typ last year - changed leases this year due to personality conflict with some other guys on the lease, and am again paying $1500 - we'll see if this place lives up to its billing!)

now, the above doesn't include any "guarantees" or "guides" - if you want that sort of thing, you've got to be willing to pay for it.