Redial, aren`t those the same states that are 80% federal land. If so then I guess the people in San Fran do have a say in what goes on there. I will admit that here in Ontario the provinces decide what happens with all fish and wildlife. Mind you the provinces get no funding from the federal government to look after it either.

RMK , if you would read my post I said elk "in general" seemed to be peaking prior to wolf introduction , and made no specific mention of Wy .

However , if you are seeing a decline in forage , do you suppose the long term drought the northern plains and Rockies have been seeing might have something to do with it ?

Gee , a 12 year old pickup . You must be a big spender and borrowed to the hilt . Why aren't you driving one of those 20 year old 1980 clunkers you figure a farmer or a rancher should be driving ?

[ 09-04-2003, 17:34: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]

RMK-My truck is a '96 GMC K3500 single rear wheel and single cab. It is in pretty rough shape as it get USED! Actually, I will be getting rid of it soon, as I am in the market for a newer model. I cannot keep a truck for 20 years as I use mine and they are typically played out be age 5-7. Oh, when I can run my ag diesel in my truck I will think about buying a diesel pick-up!

I still say that all these animals are 'luxury' items for the rich out of state hunter. To many of the residents of the states these animals are pests. This applies to the critters with canine teeth, as well as, horns!

Hell if Uncle Sam would pay me for my time and pay for the 'wolf-proof' fencing I would fence my farm and say reintroduce the wolf to Iowa, in a heart beat. Anything to cut down on these damned deer and the damage to do. Besides, the wolves may kill off the damned feral dogs all the city folk dump out here!

Brent, where are these moose at in Iowa? I have not heard of this before. I have heard of wolf and mountain lions, but not moose!

Kent

[ 09-04-2003, 18:59: Message edited by: Kent in IA ]

No gunslinger,I don't think its the drought that is causing the problem. Even with drought,your mountains and national forest,grow enough forage to support big game,(at elevation you routinely get moisture that lower elevation never see's,plus milder tempratures during summer) its when you put cows (which are not native and don't belong) on an already stressed out area that problems occur. Especially since the condition of spring growth is determined by the condition of plants the previous fall. When you have fuckin' cows grazing everything until mid october,the plants are in piss poor shape.

As for driving 20 year old vehicles,drive what you can afford. The key here is what you can afford and when you have these assholes crying about losing the farm and they're driving a new ford,its nothing but an issue of priorities. As to 5-7 years on a pick up,there's plenty of people that can break an anvil in a sand box.

Bog,
Don't know who you are or where you've been, but I do know where you are. last house on the right, the white one I bet . Seriously, you are in the middle of my favorite place to be. Funny how the wolves, the moose, and the deer are all more abundant than they used to be in the early 1970s when I started hunting up there.

Fling me an email sometime, I'd be interested to hear about your experiences in that neck of the woods, brentd@iastate.edu will get you there.

See, now something good has come from this ridiculous thread.

Brent

Just got back from a month in the Brooks Range and saw several interesting things. The most interesting was when we watched five wolves that took down two Dall's sheep in a bowl across from base camp. They took care of the sheep in short order. One of the guides found a 50+" bull moose that had recently been taken down by wolves and almost totally consumed. Wolf scat, at the higher elevations was full of white sheep hair. We had a great season, in spite of the really bad weather, and saw plenty of game, in spite of the wolves. I believe nature takes care of her own, at least until man screws it up and then tries to fix what has been damaged. JMHO.

Joe

Following is the latest report from the agencies in Idaho responsible for monitoring the wolves.
I apologize for the length but for those who are interested it is worth the read.
Gray Wolf Recovery
Weekly Progress Report
Week of August 23 - August 29, 2003

Wildlife Services' Wolf Specialist Rick Williamson trapped and radio-collared 2 wolves in Morgan Creek, near Challis, ID in response to a depredation there. Male wolves B160 and B161 are part of what will be known as the Morgan Creek pack. NPT crews will monitor these animals to determine whether there are pups present with this newly-discovered pack.
A group of 4-5 wolves was reportedly involved in killing a calf north of Idaho Falls, Idaho [GYA] on the 28th. A wolf reportedly in the act of depredating was killed by the landowner. WS confirmed the calf had been killed by wolves and a LE investigation is ongoing. If possible a wolf will be collared and released on site. Frequencies of possible ‘suspects’ from YNP were given to WS to aid in the search for these wolves.
Wildlife Services completed a control action for the depredation attributed to the Hazard Lake pack. A large gray male wolf was captured and euthanized. It was thought that the Hazard Lake pack was comprised of B105M, his uncollared mate, and their pups of the year. This depredation occurred fairly close to the one that took place in Pearl Creek north of McCall (in what is assumed to be B45's home range). It is not known if the wolf that was lethally controlled was associated with the Hazard Lake pack, the wolves in Pearl Creek, B45, or was a lone disperser.
Idaho wolf B72, a disperser from the Thunder Mountain pack was found dead. Her carcasses has been sent to the Ashland lab as part of an ongoing LE investigation.

Weeks of August 9 - August 22, 2003
The week of the 11th FWS, NPT and Nadeau with Idaho Fish and Game investigated reported wolf activity in the Boise River system just east of Idaho. During that same week Niemeyer captured and collared a male wolf, B155, in the newly documented Timberline wolf pack just east of Idaho City. Wolf pups were confirmed with the Timberline pack. This week, Niemeyer, Adam Gall, and Erin Simmons initiated a trapping effort just northeast of Idaho City to collar wolves associated with what was initially believed to be an additional litter and possibly a new pack. While working the trap line northeast of Idaho City, B155 wandered up from the Timberline pack and was observed with one other wolf in close proximity to the trap line northeast of Idaho City. The next morning an adult female and a pup were captured and collared. Although we still suspect the presence of two different litters, the presence of B155 in both areas is confusing. Additional monitoring will be required to determine the relationship between wolves in these two adjacent areas
WS confirmed that wolves killed some sheep on a Forest Service allotment just north of McCall, Idaho. The depredation occurred within B45's territory but his radio collar failed about a year ago and the status of the wolves is not known. WS initiated a capture effort to collar and release on site and two wolves were captured; an adult female and an adult male. Unfortunately, the female died of apparent stress related complications during capture and processing. Tribal field crews are continuing capture and collaring efforts to determine the status of wolves in this area. The whereabouts of B45 and her mate is not known at this point.
WS confirmed wolf depredations on another Forest Service allotment also just north of McCall, Idaho. The Hazard Lake pack is suspected in this incident as they were located approximately 4 miles from the depredation site on a subsequent monitor flight. A control action is under way.
WS confirmed that wolves killed a calf near Challis, Idaho. Recovery Project personnel have been attempting to capture and collar one of a suspected 10-11 wolves in this area since last winter. WS initiated a capture and collar effort to better understand the status of wolf activity in this area.

Week of August 2 - August 8, 2003
A new Idaho pack was discovered by Holly Akenson, Univ.of ID researcher and caretaker for the Taylor Ranch in Big Creek. We have suspected a pack of wolves in the Monumental Creek area for the past several years. Holly and some interns surveyed this area and discovered an active den with both evidence of adults and pups. This information was verified by Jim Holyan on a subsequent survey. No counts yet but they are now called the Monumental pack.

Week of July 26 - August 1, 2003
In Idaho field crews continue their successful monitoring efforts. At least 2 pups were heard in the Kelly Creek pack of 6 adults. The Selway pack has 3 pups. Crews finally caught up with suspected breeding wolf B110, a disperser from the Moyer Basin pack. He was observed with at least one other wolf on numerous occasions over this past winter and spring. B110 has used areas along the breaks of the main Salmon River from the confluence of the South Fork Salmon River upstream to above Sabe Creek. This week, Tribal Biologist Jason Husseman documented 6 pups and accounted for 4 adult wolves associated with B110. This new pack is called the Magruder pack.
Several lambs [6-8] were killed and another 8-10 were wounded by a large canid in SE Idaho. WS investigations are continuing but it appears it was a dog, but possibly even a lone wolf. About a week or so ago 12 sheep were killed and 7 wounded in the same area but it wasn't reported quickly and they were too decomposed to know what happened.
This week, WS investigated a calf, on private property within the Goldfork pack's [ID] territory, thought to have been attacked by wolves. The calf was still alive at the time of the investigation. It had sustained serious injuries, perhaps 10 days ago, that made it difficult to confirm the predator involved. The producer had observed wolf sign in the area around the estimated time of the reported attack. Based on available evidence, WS categorized the incident as a "possible" wolf-caused incident.
Week of July 19 - July 25, 2003
Nez Perce biologists finally caught up with wolves in the Slate Creek area that were implicated in a recent confirmed depredation on sheep just north of the main Salmon River upstream (east) from Riggins. This week, three adult and two pup wolves were observed in this area by project personnel. Trapping efforts to collar pack members is ongoing. We would like to thank the Nez Perce National Forest with special recognition to Joanne Bonn, Wildlife Biologist for the Salmon River District, for all of their help and support in documenting wolf activity in this area. Joanne has done a great job in tracking reports of wolf activity in this area and relaying timely information to us. Joanne has spent many days out in the field helping to verify reports.
With the help of Sharon Seim, Wildlife Biologist for the Red River District of the Nez Perce National Forest, Nez Perce biologist Holyan documented a new litter of pups south of Elk City, Idaho. Although a trapping effort was initiated, no wolves were captured. At this point it is not clear if this litter represents a new pack of wolves or the pups from the close-by Gospel Hump pack. We would like to thank Sharon Seim for all of her help, and assistance.
To date field crews in Idaho have documented the presence of 18 litters including 9 new, first-year, wolf packs. Three of the 9 new packs were documented in areas of previously undocumented, but suspected wolf activity; with the help of agencies and the public. We appreciate all of the help, particularly from the general public, to assist us in our efforts to document the status of wolves across the state
A calf was confirmed killed on private property 5-6 miles east of Donnelly, ID by members of the Gold Fork pack on July 8. Wildlife Services investigated on the 11th and confirmed a 200lb, small for this time of year, calf had been killed. Traps were set on the 15th and authorization was given for two wolves to be killed [except the alpha female which would have been collared and released on site]. No wolves returned to the area and traps were pulled on the 21st.
Week of July 12 - July 18, 2003
In Idaho, a Kelly creek wolf was collared and pups were confirmed in the pack. Wolf surveys and trapping will occur in the Kamiah, Elk City, and north of Challis were wolf activity is reproted but packs aren't radioed.
Service LE agents have authorized a $5,000 reward for regarding information on the death of 2-year-old male wolf B131, from the Wolf Fang pack in Idaho. He was found shot near Idaho City, ID and was believed to be killed around Memorial Day Weekend. The Service is requesting that anyone with information call LE agents at (208)378-5333.
Week of July 5 - July 11, 2003
On June 30 Wildlife Services confirmed wolves killed a lamb and probably killed 3 other lambs and 2 ewes about 10 miles NE of Riggins, ID on a Forest Service allotment. The producer was moving his sheep soon so no control was taken. It appeared to be an unradioed pair and 4 pups. The producer had a herder and 2 guard dogs protecting the sheep, but the dogs were relatively inexperienced. His best guard dog was killed by wolves 2 months ago, but Defenders of Wildlife helped replace it. On July 2nd, 4 more ewes were killed, 2 confirmed and 2 probable. Trapping was initiated but was stopped when the producer moved his sheep on July 5th.
Week of June 28 - July 4, 2003
In Idaho additional pups were documented in the Scott Mountain pack and this pack has at least 5 pups. The uncollared Twin Peaks pack also has pups as does the radioed Selway pack, and work is underway getting complete counts.
Herders watched as a lone wolf killed a 200lb calf in central Idaho on June 16th. They couldn't react fast enough other than to drive the wolf off the carcass. WS confirmed the loss and traps were set near the calf's carcass. On the 29th, WS checked traps near Mackey, Idaho, that were set in response to the depredation. A gray uncollared yearling female wolf was captured and euthanized. The pelt and skull were not salvageable, so they were buried on site. Only one wolf was involved in the depredation so there will be no additional control.
Week of June 21 - June 27, 2003
A rancher in central Idaho saw a wolf attacking his calf on private land and shot it. It turned out to be yearling wolf B131 from the Landmark pack. This is the area where fladry was tested last year and while it seemed to work short-term, the pack eventually ignored it and began to kill again cattle.
Herders watched as a lone wolf killed a 200lb calf in central Idaho, just north of Arco. They couldn't react fast enough other than to drive the wolf off the carcass. WS confirmed the loss and traps were set near the calf's carcass. If the wolf is captured, it will be killed.
Week of June 14 - June 20, 2003
Litters were documented for four additional wolf packs in central Idaho this week including Chamberlain, Jureano Mountain, Orphan, and Scott Mountain. Jim and Holly Akenson, University of Idaho researchers and caretakers at Taylor Ranch assisted the Tribe in documenting the litter for the Chamberlain Basin pack. Good job Jim and Holly! A total of 14 wolf litters have been documented so far in Idaho this summer.
Weeks of June 1 - June 13, 2003
This summer Idaho field crews will be surveying 38 different wolf groups and areas of known or suspected wolf activity. Reproductive status of 18 documented radio-collared wolf packs and 7 new potential breeding pairs (radio collared dispersing wolves that have localized) will be assessed. In addition, 4 areas of known past wolf activity and 9 areas of suspected wolf activity will be surveyed for the presence and status of wolves.
To date, 10 wolf litters have been identified. Reproductive packs at this time include 4 documented packs including Big Hole, Buffalo Ridge, Landmark, and Moyer and 6 new packs including B105 Hazard Lakes, B107 Galena (note name change), B111 Ohara Point, R241 Steel Mountain, Soldier Mountain, and Hemlock Ridge.
The Hazard Lakes pack is near the Confluence of the Little and Main Salmon River near Riggins, Idaho and is composed of alpha male B105 and an unknown mate. The Galena pack is in the Sawtooth Valley near Stanley and is composed of the alpha female B107 and an unknown mate. The Ohara Point pack is composed of dispersing wolf B111 (Jureano Mountain pack) and 1-3 other adult wolves near Elk City. The Steel Mountain pack is in the upper reaches of the Middle Fork of the Boise River and is composed of R241, a dispersing wolf from the Sheep Mountain pack in Montana just north of YNP, and 1-3 other wolves. The Soldier Mountain pack is a newly documented pack in the Big and Little Smoky River drainages, north of Fairfield, Idaho. The Hemlock Ridge pack is a newly documented pack in the Pierce, Idaho area. Tribal crews were able to radio collar a wolf in this area and document the presence of a wolf litter, after receiving a report of an adult wolf and pup in the area from the Clearwater National Forest. The Clearwater National Forest was instrumental in this successful effort by providing timely and accurate information about wolves in the area, providing housing and access for Tribal field crews, and coordinating on the ground field efforts. A job well done. Tribal field crews and the Clearwater National Forest will continue to monitor this pack to better determine numbers, status, movements, and activities of this pack.
Niemeyer and Husseman investigated reports of wolf activity in the Idaho City area. Some wolf sign was observed, but more efforts will be required to document the status of wolf activity in this area. Multiple reports have been received of 4-6 wolves in the Bruce Meadows/Cape Horn/ and upper end of the South Fork of the Payette River area. Dispersing Wolf Fang wolf B109 has been located from the air in this general area on recent monitoring flights. Tribal field crews will continue to survey this area through the summer. Tribal field crews are investigating reported wolf activity, not associated with the Galena pack, in the Sawtooth Valley.
To date, 21 radio collars have been placed on wolves in 2003; 14 using helicopter capture, 1 ground darted, and 6 trapped.
Week of May 17 - May 23, 2003
Idaho wolf denning and parturition appears to be early this year. Of the four litters documented so far, pups in three of these litters are already out of the den - in one instance, 6-7 pups were observed, from the air, traveling up a steep ridge with an adult wolf. Jim Holyan and Jason Husseman ground tracked the two new collared wolves in the Big Smokey area and confirmed reproduction. This new pack is now called the Soldier Mountain pack. Isaac Babcock and volunteer Anastacia Kampe documented at least one pup with the Moyer Basin pack. Tribal field crews are now on board and are conducting summer field activities. As usual, it will be a busy summer as field crews will be investigating the status of 34 known and suspected wolf groups across the state.
Subadult male wolf B143 of the Buffalo Ridge pack died. His carcass was recovered by the USFWS and his death is under investigation.
Weeks of May 4 - May 16, 2003
A group of 3-4 wolves has been located near the Boise River for the past 2 years. A dispersing NW Montana wolf #R-241 was located there this spring and a telemetry flight on the 15th, observed 6-7 pups and another adult. The new pack is called the Steel Mountain pack. Areas with reported wolf activity but unradioed packs will continue to be surveyed and searched for missing radio-collared wolves. If dens are located trapping will be attempted.
Recent telemetry flights in Idaho indicate that 13 packs have probably denned. They are Big Hole, "Big Smokey", Buffalo Ridge, Gospel Hump, Hourglass [B107], Orphan, Scott Mountain, Selway, Steel Mountain [R241], B2, B110, B111, and B131. Further monitoring will determine the success of those packs and locate other denning packs in Idaho.
On April 30, 2003 Teton wolf #200, a 6 year-old breeding female's radio was heard on mortality mode. Her body was recovered and she was killed by other wolves - almost certainly from her pack. The other breeding female and the rest of the Teton pack continue to use the den site and appear to be raising #200's pups.
There were several reports from concerned livestock producers in MT and ID that elk were causing forage/hay /fence damage and appeared concentrated at lower elevations than normal, possibly because of wolves. Wolf field staff visited with several landowners. MT FW&P indicated that many elk were lower than normal this time of year because of green-up patterns but should be headed to higher elevations soon. Wolves did not appear to be involved in these elk distributions since they were occurring in areas both with and without wolves. In SW MT [GYA]; Freezeout, Taylor Peak, Mill Creek, Chief Joe packs appear to have denned. Lone Bear and Sentinel packs are presumed to be denning. WS was trapping in the Lone Bear territory to get another radio in the group. The pack was involved in depredations on a ranch earlier this spring but the wolves have stopped using that area and traps were pulled on the 16th.
A black bear hunter using 2 hounds in Idaho had his 9-year-old hound/pet killed and half eaten by an uncollared group of at least 4 wolves along the main Salmon River near Northfork, ID on the 7th. His other dog was injured but survived by backing up under a tree. The hunter walked into the area a few hours later and jumped the wolves at about 20 yds. [and likely saved his other dog's life]. Niemeyer and Williamson [WS] investigated on the 8th and confirmed the depredation and visited with the hunter. Anyone who has ever lost a dog can understand the emotions involved. Our sympathies go out to the dog's owner but neither control nor compensation is available for hunting dog depredations on public land. Loss of big game hunting dogs and hounds to wolves is one of the biggest conservation issues facing local tolerance of wolves in much of Scandinavia, central Europe, Russian, and parts of the Midwestern U.S. Niemeyer and Williamson howled in that area that night, thinking a new pack might be denned nearby, but no responses were heard.
There was a third probable calf depredation near the East Fork of the Salmon River/Squaw Creek just outside the SNRA. These are likely being caused by the Buffalo Ridge pack that has denned in that area. The Service, WS, and Defenders of Wildlife met with the livestock producers to discuss ways to help reduce the potential for future losses, including alternative summer grazing pastures. Those wolves are denned very near to federal grazing allotments and private grazing pastures that will be filled with cattle and calves next week.
Week of April 26 - May 3, 2003
On Sun. the 27th, Mack thought he detected wolf R241, and possibly R242 (both Sheep Mtn. dispersers from north of YNP), near Idaho City, ID. A later flight confirmed that R241 was by itself near Idaho City but close to 4 other wolves that were verified by Niemeyer. Volunteer Jon Tapp had investigated reports to the north and northeast of this same area and observed tracks of at least 3 wolves. This appears to be a newly establishing pack.
USFS, NPR and NPR biologists began coordinating efforts to search for missing radio collars in the three (or more) state area. About 40 wolves, collared in the last 5 years, are currently missing. Searches will concentrate on likely wolf habitat where no wolves are known to be radio-collared.
Williamson and Niemeyer searched for the pack of 10 wolves sighted along the Morgan Creek Road this winter on 4/29-4/30 northeast of Challis, Idaho. According to local residents the wolves moved out of their winter haunts about a month ago. Further attempts will be made to locate the pack and instrument a pack member with a radio collar
Wildlife Services investigated another single calf depredation incident that was probably killed by members of the Buffalo Ridge pack near Clayton, Idaho. This is the third probable calf loss, but little evidence remained to confirm the depredation. Any further confirmed losses will result in incremental removal of wolves responsible for the depredation. An electronic monitor was placed in the vicinity of the first probable depredations and radio-collared members of the Buffalo Ridge pack have triggered the monitors on several occasions.
Gray wolves throughout the eastern and western United States were downlisted from endangered to threatened status effective April 1, 2003. The new regulations can be viewed at the Federal Register April 1, 2003 or at midwest.fws.gov/wolf/fnl-rule/.
In the western DPS [outside the experimental areas which remained just as they were] the 4d rules allow:
1. Anyone to harass any wolf at any time as long as the wolf is not injured;
2. Landowners may shoot any wolf that is physically attacking [biting, grasping] livestock [defined as - cattle, sheep., horses, or mules, and guarding and herding animals - such as llamas and certain breeds of dogs] and domestic dogs on private property [it must be reported within 24hrs];
3. Federal grazing permittees that have a confirmed wolf depredation may receive a permit from the Service to shoot wolves seen attacking livestock on their federal grazing allotments;
4. The Service may issue permits to injuriously harass [rubber bullets, etc.] wolves;
5. The Service may issue permits to private landowners to shoot wolves on-sight after 2 or more livestock depredations;
6. People who accidentally kill a wolf will not be prosecuted if they were involved in otherwise legal activities and they took reasonable steps to not kill a wolf [Note - hunters are always responsible for identifying their target and "accidentally" shooting a wolf may be prosecuted];
7. The States and Tribes, or-if 10 or more breeding pairs are established - the Service, may relocate wolves that are causing excessive predation on native ungulate herds;
8. No land-use restrictions are envisioned unless the federal activity may kill wolves. There are no land-use restrictions on private land;
9. The Service and other Service-authorized agencies may take wolves under permit for a variety of other reasons, including research or wolves that look or behave strangely;
10. Of course, as already allowed by the ESA, anyone may kill any wolf that is posing a direct and immediate threat to human life.
On Jan. 7-10, Niemeyer, Williamson (WS), Holyan (NPT), John Aldous (rancher) and Mike Richey (outfitter) snowmobiled to several locations in Lemhi and Custer Counties to check out wolf activity and reports of packs. They checked out an elk kill site about 30 miles north of Salmon that turned out to be made by remnants of the Jureano pack (radio signal). They located a new Moyer Basin pack on the back of Morgan Creek summit. Ten to eleven wolves crossed the Morgan Creek Road and left clear tracks in the snow. No radio-collars were in this area. From Jan 18-24, Idaho is planning a winter helicopter darting capture effort. Conditions look poor due to lack of snow and pack sizes seem to be small but they'll give it their best effort.
Nine breeding pairs and 47 pups were documented in Idaho in 2002 compared to 14 breeding pairs and 82 pups in 2001. While part of this decline is due to the difficulty of radio-collaring and counting wolves in Idaho's rugged terrain, it also appears some of the wolf packs are in a state of flux. In Yellowstone pack trespasses have resulted in increased conflicts and wolf mortality. As in Yellowstone it is possible that with possible prey declines, wolves have exceeded their own social tolerance and will be limiting themselves in the core recovery areas by inter-pack strife and increasing dispersal.
Winter wolf helicopter capture efforts to radio-collar wolves were conducted in central Idaho. Four wolves were collared under very difficult conditions. Three were re-captures and 1 was a new animal. Pack sizes were small and few if any pups were seen. Scott Mountain was seen with 3 wolves, Orphan had 3, Thunder Mountain had 3, and Gold Fork had 5. Capture operations have moved to the Challis. With 6 collars on mortality in Idaho this fall and several other collars missing it appears that illegal killing could be involved in recent pack disruptions and small pack sizes. Extra wolf monitoring in Idaho is being conducted to try to figure this out.

rukidnme, thanks for posting that info. Looks like our state is full of these pests!

Turman, none of those three states are anywhere near 80% Fed land as far as I know. In fact, only Nevada is close to that if I'm not mistaken.

Regrettably, the reason people in San Fran have such a say in our local matters is because the Ninth Federal Circus Court (under whose Fed jurisdiction we fall) is enthroned in SF. I won't list even the most recent embarassments of our most-overturned Federal court ....

Cheers!

Redial

Well Bog and Brent if you are up the totem pole far enough you might just be going to the International Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies meeting in Madison, Wis. on Sept 9th thru 14th.

While there you should be able to discuss the "peer review" of all three state's plans and that is where you can REALLY make your case.

You might or might not know about all of that so here is a teaser along with a link to the article.

Wolf plans headed for scientific review

By BECKY BOHRER Associated Press writer

BILLINGS -- Select scientists and wildlife managers could get their first official look, possibly this month, at state plans for managing gray wolves in the region once the animals are removed from federal protection, a federal wildlife official said Tuesday.

That "peer review" of proposals from Montana, Idaho and Wyoming is likely to take a month or two.

Officials said a delisting proposal could then come as early as year's end -- if all three state plans pass review and promise the survival of the region's wolf population.

Plans Headed for Peer Review

As an interested observer to a lot of this discussion, I have one question for a lot of the participants. A lot of the comments seem to be discussing wolves, their prey, the effects of their hunting in very general terms. A lot of the comments appear to be hearsay, third hand or general feelings.

My question is who in these discussions has first-hand experience of the effects of their activity? ie sighted wolves personally, sighted them killing large amounts of game, leaving large numbers of game animals "maimed and killed just for fun" etc.

Perhaps some direct and first-hand personal experiences are in order.

Lower numbers of game animals can have many causes. I doubt I will ever hunt in many of these areas so for me it is not a personal matter but I'm interested in the subject and the debate so far. Especially as the game animal, ie wolf seems to be a native animal of the regions being discussed.

Wis hs killed 16 wolfs this year so far for killing and attacking cattle ect. If they would open a season they not only would get rid of some of those. But the hunters would start backing haveing some around.

Bog , yes I have visited the Arrohead country and Ely , but have not been out in the BWCA .

What does the presence of elk and deer get me?

The oppurtunity to HUNT them......

Deer and elk will more or less peacwefully co-exist with man and his livestock. Not so with wolves......

Personally , I would not have a problem with wolves in the Arrowhead if they were returned to their former statis of basically a varmint and were hunted and trapped hard , and kept from spreading out to repopulate other areas . Take a look at the history links here :

http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/basic/history/gray_timeline.asp

And also look at the historic populations in Mn . The wolves were able to maintain steady numbers of around 700 despite annual harvests by any and all means of 200 or so . That tells me the wolves can withstand a hell of alotta pressure and maaintain their numbers , given an adequate prey base and good cover like NE Mn . It also says limited quota sports-style hunting (which is about all we are likely to get IF de-listing occurs) will do little to control wolf numbers or halt their spread . And the Mn DNR first proposed taking back wolf management from the ESA and the Feds back in 1980 , apparrently consireing the wolf recoverd in Mn at that time. Here we are 23 years later , increases in the thousands of wolves , and still no de-listing and still no hunting .

Nitro , you have to understand , the wolf proponents envision repopulating the whole former range of the lower 48 . Agasin , most of these areas are in no way wild or wilderness , and densly populated and in many spots , considerable livestock . Because these animals cannot be legally hunted or even molested under the Endaaangered species Act ,they have little fear of man . Folks like Brent even want wolves howling around in the Iowa cornfields . Now there would be a real wilderness experience for you..........

[ 09-05-2003, 17:17: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]

Bog , I am only located about 120 to 150 miles as the crow flies from current wolf range in Mn . Strays already show up on occation , and in my view wolves could easily populate this area without some controls . I live right on the state line , and have property and livestock in both states , and hunt deer in MN every year .

In addition , I like to hunt elk when time and finances will allow , and from my perspective a non-resident elk license is already hard to get and expensive in Wy and Mt. Depredation by wolves will only make that situation worse ..........

[ 09-05-2003, 19:26: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]

Brent, thanks for the information on the moose situation. This statement confuses me though "Surely living in Story County,". I don't live in Story county, try Hardin and a graduate of Ackley High School and Elsworth College, which is located in Iowa Falls.

Kent

I'm not comfortable over the wolf re-introduction primarily because I dont have faith our US Fish and Wildlife service truely has "Qualified" wildlife biologists. Furthermore, due to the spendy, and lengthy period it takes these people we feed with our tax dollars to complete an EIS, etc, it would not matter what they had determined, because frankly, they move slower than snails. I'm sorry, but my experience around these types really concerns me over their lack of experience, and common sense. Mainly common sense. They are a political group as far as I am concerned.

Turman, only 45% of Wy is federal land. The wolves were introduced not naturally occuring. The elk in the Northwest corner of Wy are getting hit hard. No calves, or very few. Like less than 10 per 100 cows. The population is going backwards and will continue to do so.

It has been documented by the G&F of wolf kills just to feed then leave and not return. The killing is easy, they kill, feed, and leave not to return. On one feed ground over 21 elk were killed by one pack, no one knows how many ran off and were stressed so bad that they didn't make it through the winter. Do you think one pack can eat 21 elk?

Our game dept is funded 100% by license sales. No federal money for game management. The grizzly costs the wy g&f $500,000 a year to manage but only $35,000 from the USF&W. So the hunters of wyoming and out of state carry the states wildlife management and care.

[ 09-07-2003, 00:09: Message edited by: kudu56 ]

I was asked if I bought the license b4 or after. Well I never shot or saw one! I did get a bear at the last seconds of the last day though. that was back in 91-92? I think its been a while since I have been back. He used to come down to our place and hunt whitetails, loved the venison and would usually bring us some moose. Now that is the most perfect meat I've ever eaten. I is likely I will not return to Canada I really don't want to go through the new gun hassles, We weren't treated very well by the boarder guards once the knew we were hunters- I would say that the Canadian people were excellent though.

Andrew

It happend on the snake river feed ground south of Jackson last winter. It was in the casper newspaper. G&F investigated and filed a report, they are pretty tight lipped about any attacks but the paper has gotten some info. I think if more than one elk was killed by a small pack then the intent was to kill not feed.

Do a search of sublette county. There web page has some pictures of the dead elk piled up from wolf kills in the refuge.

This hocus pocus bullshit about wolves only killing out of need is a fuckin' joke. You'll hear about mountain lions only killing out of need also and having run lions for years I can tell you for a fact that lions kill for shits and giggles,just like humans and many never return to the kill.

I've talked to plenty of people that trap wolves and are around them and none of them are suprised that wolves are moping up the elk. Most of them point out that with a big game population like wyoming has,that is basically uneducated to wolves,the killing is easy. Wolves will kill because the game is easy and available and its not uncommon with availability being so high,that wolves won't return to a kill.

I put very little faith in biologists. Biologists fall under two categories,those that draw a wage from the state or goverment and therefore must play ball with the goverment if they expect further employment. The second type is private biologists that are for hire and will spew whatever bullshit story they want,depending on who's providing the grant money for salaries and research.

I currently work with an ex wyoming and game and fish biologist. According to him every study is based on the current politics of the day and trying to keep your job or going from a part time employee to a full time state employee status. Very little has to do with biology and its very common to compile data that the biologist never even went in the field to get.

RMK, your experience with biologists and mine are identical. I've had direct dealings with them, and you just defined both types, govt and private right on the head.

I like the murphy's law type bioligists......

jpb, good for you. A lot of them do know what side their bread is buttered on and do what they have to do to keep certain people happy. These damn wolves are really a problem out west, it`s not going to go away.The USFWS had to kill a whole pack last summer because of continued depredation on livestock, north of Challis, ID. Thanks at least for being a breath of fresh air on the matter.

Trust or believe a government Game Biologist?
Like the ones in Washington state a year or two back, who were caught planting "Salting" the forest with Lynx hair, making false statements and submitting false reports.

Me thinks; Dave Gaillard, of the Predator Conservation Alliance , is full of anal excrement and trying to pull the wool of somebody's eyes.
Read this! Especially the last third or so!

http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2003/09/07/build/wyoming/35-predators.inc

1.
I thought willows were mainly browsed by the Moose.
I wasn't aware the Elk ate so much of the Willows, maybe I learned something new today?
2.
I bet Wyoming already has more than 20 breeding pairs of wolves.
3.
Wolves have aready been documented as being sighted in the Big horns.

I agree with you RMK, in the old days when the G&F had a good program and more wardens than biologists, the Game Wardens did most of the bio work! And you know what? We can attribute the success of Wy Game to the old guys with just shoot from the hip and common sense tactics. Now we have more biologists than people protecting the game. More leeches on society!

Good points Marsh! With the one near Baggs and 3 confirmed in the Big Horns last winter, and the ones near Rock Springs, the state is getting saturated. The nice thing is we can still do some elk hunting, general areas, but the lower numbers will affect non-residents!

If Colorado doesn't wake up they will be crying and whinning in a year or two. They have an uphill battle with that state being dominated by GREENIES!

[ 09-09-2003, 06:01: Message edited by: kudu56 ]

I'll buy that at the university level, tenured biologists have less to worry about. The problem is plenty of these guys "moonlight" during the three or four months that they aren't at school. Not to mention,its not uncommon for profesors to take sabaticals for a couple years and work for whoever,during which time they'll side with those paying them.

Ya Kudu the reason for it,was the wardens actually spent time in the field and saw what was going on. I occasionally hunt with a guy that works full time as a biologist for the Wyoming game and fish. The stories he has are crazy,on average they spend just two weeks a year in the field,doing actual game counts. The rest is spent behind a desk.

When you get down to it. There really isn't much a biologist does to help the big game in america. Most of the work is done by the restraint of citizens not going out and killing out of season. Other factors are,weather which no biologist can control,but they can monitor the available food levels as a result and suggest that non native species like cows and sheep be kept out of an area. Another factor is predators,which like the wolf are a known problem and unless hunted and kept in check,all the biologists in the world couldn't do anything to save the prey species.

The Game and Fish are interested in selling licenses. The more animals available,mean the more licenses that can be sold. They could care less about your success in bagging game,its actually counter productive for them to have you kill animals,which could let them sell more licenses the next year. They know full well you'll still buy a license the next year even if you're not successful in killing something this year.

[ 09-09-2003, 07:01: Message edited by: RMK ]

Well you might think they will count on me buying a license the next year but I will tell you, I haven't drawn a limited quota elk, deer, or antelope in three years, while some guys draw them every year! I will not spend one penny on Wyoming licenses until I draw one tag! I go else where to hunt. Besides the deer hunting is at an all time low and antelope is down to. I am glad I didn't spend what a non-resident spends to hunt deer or antelope! You can do better in an eastern state! It is all about MONEY! And now you have the wolves to contend with!