I have read on many boards, including this one, many arguements about killing/shooting animals at various distances.

My question: Can you hit within 4" of your aim point to your maximum distance that you kill deer?

Let say, as an example, your maximum distance is 500 yards. If 4 targets were placed at various distances are you confident that you could hit within 4" of your aimpoint on the target?

If targets were placed at known distances of 165 yards, 275 yards, 370 yards and 465 yards, could you hit within 4" of your aimpoint on the first shot. Providing conditions are right for "you".

This may be interesting to try sometime.

Your thoughts?

Don

This is an interesting question that that only those that regularly practise at distances out to 500 yards could honestly answer with a yes.I do so and would give a yes as long as the conditions are right for me as you say.My biggest problem with these type of discussions is those individuals that try to apply their own limitations to other people.They think that if they can't shoot accurately at the longer ranges that no-one else can either.My believe is to know your own limitations and don't try to chastise others because their limitations are different.

I regularly shoot goundhogs out to 400 - 450+ yards. If I know the distance and the wind is not to strong I could hit the targets as you stated. This is with a bipod and from a prone position. The key is to know the distance and know what the actual trajectory is of the cartridge that you are using. Also important is to have actual practice shooting at these distances. The test you have described would be very difficult to do for someone who has only shot out to 100 yards at the range. Many people think that if they get 1 inch groups at 100 yards they automatically get 3inch groups at 300 yards. This is NOT always the case. Individual rifles vary as do the skills of individual shooters. Long distance shooting requires practice short and simple. Without it, anything over 200 yards would be about a 50/50 chance at best for most shooters.

[ 09-27-2003, 22:01: Message edited by: Iron Buck ]

stubble,

Sound thinking there

Re-reading I should qualify one thing. Pick the distance that each individual sets as "their" limit. The 500 yards was an example only.

Some of my "reasoning" in asking the question is this: Let say, as an example, that an individual has his/her personal limit at the 500 yards. "If" they practice at 100, 200, 250, 300, 350, 400, 450 and 500 yards (on paper) do they know the drop difference between 350 and 400 (as an example)?

Using "their" given cartridge and bullet they would know the difference in drop from 450 and 500 yards by shooting paper. If that difference is 16" (as an example) are they confident enough to know they could hit within 4" of their aimpoint at 475 yards (1/2 way between 450 and 500 yards)?

Perhaps (as listed by the example above) this person should practice (on paper) at 475 as well as 450 and 500 yards.

My "theory" is that once the drop difference between 2 distances becomes more then 8" then that distance needs to be split in 1/2 and one needs to practice at that distance as well and mark their "come ups" down for future reference.

Am I all wet?

Don

I have a decent rifle/pistol range in my back yard; A good bench on concrete, my 100,150,200,250 and 300 yd target butts are square and level. The vast majority of hunters who use my range to sight in get a real education from the 200 and 300 yd targets!

Many locals do not shoot much past 150 yards as they feel its too far. Good thing too as most all of them couldn't hit ME at 150 yards. A situation of both the equipment and the shooter being way below par.

Then I have a few local "experts" who come out and REALLY get a wake up call on the 200+ yard targets. It amazes me how these guys that can do 500 yard HEAD SHOTS on game now can't even hit an 8 1/2 x11 inch target......OFF A BENCH too.

Though..... a few of my LR shooters REALLY CAN place their shots into the vitals of a deer WAY OUT THERE. One of them has a really well set up .300 win mag and he CAN place bullets into a few inches at 300 yards from prone with a Harris bipod. So it is possible.

I'm sure I have taken shots that would piss off the anti LR shooters. Many of my elk have been killed at 300+ and one or two very close to 400 yards. But ALL dropped very close to the spot of the first shot. Not a one required tracking. And I have NEVER wounded or lost an animal. I do know my limitations and I try to keep my shots very much on the low/short side of what I'm capable of. If a shot isn't good, I don't take it.

If more hunters would do some true LR shooting, on PAPER, then stick to what their individual capabilities truly are, I think we would have a lot fewer wounded and lost game. But then we wouldn't have as many of those 500 yard head shot stories though!

FN in MT

Depending on the game, my distances vary.

I won't shoot at a black bear further than 200 yards, or a grizzly much past 150.

I will shoot at a deer, moose or elk out to 350, but only if I have a very steady rest (prone) and the wind is good.

From 'questionable' rests, such as sitting, leaning against a tree, etc, I would shoot to 300, maybe.

The longest I have ever shot at game is 250, however. If our range went out to 500, I would practice to that length, but it only goes to 300 presently.

One of the members of our club is an incredible shooter. At 300 yards, he makes 5 shot groups that touch each other. He has the proper equipment, but more important-the skill - to make long shots.

You could give him a lever action 30-30 and he would still outshoot most people. Unfortunately, I do not posses his skill...His skill is extreme.

I think it takes both skill and accurate equipment to shoot at distance. Some of my guns are up to my shooting at distance standards and some are not. But the ones that are not dont need to be as thats not what I use them for. And likewise a good 500 yd groundhog rig for most guys is "probably" not the same gun they are going to be taking Elk hunting. And this is the part where I get flamed by the guys who shoot 200 PD's a day with their ultra mags.

Like Frank, I also see a lot of guys equipped for the "big shot" at the range, but they never practice past 100 yds and they would probably not fare so well if they tried. Like someone else said, 1" at 100 yds is NOT a given 3" @ 300 and people should not only set their limitations but KNOW them through practice.

[ 09-28-2003, 09:45: Message edited by: Wstrnhuntr ]

Double post.

[ 09-29-2003, 11:35: Message edited by: Jon A ]

jon,

The 450 to 500 and 8" was an example. Sorry for not making that more clear - my bad. I realize there are cartridges that can go from 450 then to 500 and still hit the deer at 475 yards. To make it more realistic I probably should have used 700 yards and 750 yards and then the middle at 725 yards. It was merely an example.

My point was if the drop distance between two yardages practiced at is 8" then one should split the difference and practice at that yardage as well. Maybe the 8" isn't a good number. Perhaps 12" would be better. I think you get my point.

I am not going to tell others how to shoot at long range - I figure I don't have that right. I know, personally, I don't shoot at large game at distances I don't practice on paper. But, thats just me.

Don

Groove-I am fully in agreement with you about not shooting at game at distances that you have not practised on targets.There are far too many people shooting at game at 300 and 400 yards or even farther that never practise at distances farther than 100 or 200 yards.They are only guessing at where their bullet will hit without really knowing for sure.

Stubble,

I agree with you, but then, thats just how "I" do it.

The confidence level after practicing to all distances is so high. Maybe I am not smart enough to figure out how to hit something at a distance I never shot before. Perhaps others can figure it out without having ever shot at a set distance before - I sure can't. Some programs on a computer will get one close, but I always figured that close only counted with horse shoes and hand grenades.

Don

Good post. I would say that it is one with the most reasonable responses that I have seen on the subject. Bottom line, practice at the distances with less than perfect (which I call field) conditions, choose the distance you KNOW you can ethically shoot, make a deduction for the conditions you know will exist, but cannot practice (excitement, fatigue, etc), KNOW the conditions you are hunting/shooting in, then be honest with yourself before and when it comes time to pull the trigger.

Deke.

I was just in a shoot that they did just what you posted. Iron animals were placed at 500-400-260 and 100 yards. The shot was a standing off hand and you were given three shots and each range. I am not a long range shooter but it surprisingly easy for me to hit at all distances. I noticed that some of the western shooters were having a problem and can only attribute this to not shooting off hand on a regular basis. I also think if you are confident of the shot, you can make the shot.

My two cents. That's all I have left .

Back To The Stove
Turtle

Much has been said regarding range practice necessary to acquire long distance skills and the equipment needed.

Not mentioned is the environmental factors of temperature, humidity, wind and mirage. One can put up wind flags at various distances on the range. Not really practical in the field. Only hits in the X-ring of a high power target can be considered dependably lethal on large game. Unlikely under field conditions without multiple range flags.

Also left out is the terminal performance at extreme long distance. Extreme Long Range "hunters" seem to fancy themselves as Marine Snipers. But combat Marines are not concerned with humane kills.

Wally

I have fired over 1300 rounds of 223 Remington in high power competition this season (April to now). Little under half of them have been at targets 500 and 600 yards away. When the wind isn't doing weird things, like switching back and forth and gusting, I can keep 90 to 95 percent of my shots, in a 20 shot string of fire, within the 2 MOA ten ring.

That's with an AR-15 with iron sights and a 20" barrel using 75 grain bullets loaded to magazine length. No benchrest, sandbags, bipod, or shooting sticks. Just prone with an M1907 sling.

Killing a stationary deer with a scoped 30-06 bolt action at 350 yards is quite simple.

The "hundred yard hackers" show up in droves at the ranges around mid-Ocotber

[ 09-30-2003, 23:59: Message edited by: Orion 1 ]

For me that's pretty easy. I'm a mediocre shot on a good day. Beyond 250 yards, things get very queezy for me. I've hit a 10" gong consistently at 300 meters from the bench, I've hit roe deer at 250 paces, from a high seat, but 200 meters is more or less my maximum these days. And yes, I can hit within 4" of my POA within that distance. Though I might need a good rest every now and then ;-)

Frans
www.terrahunt.com