I read a somewhat recent article in American Hunter mag today by Boddington...he pointed out that goat hunting usually starts where the sheep stop. He went on to say that goat hunting is much less expensive than sheep and is usually more physically difficult too.

I found the article very interesting. I wondered if we could receive some comments from those who have hunted both sheep and goats. Also, what do you think about goat/ibex/aoudad/etc hunting in general?

I've heard goats being called the " poor man's sheep". No offense meant to any mtn. goat hunter, they are a outstanding trophy. They do though, cost alot less than a guided sheep hunt. The mountains that the goats and sheep inhabit is truly awesome, and dangerous to the unprepared.

I find that goat hunting here in B.C. is easier than sheep hunting in a couple of ways.

Sheep may not be as high or steep but alot of time they are much farther back. It's not uncommon to hike by goats all day valley after valley to get to a legal ram. I find that goats will also let you get into shooting range more often than sheep. They have the attitude that nothing can catch them in their terrain. That is correct but they overlook that rifle your carrying. I've also hunted mule deer above goats before and actually shot a mulie out of a goat bed. Of course theres going to be lots of situations that are going to prove me wrong.

One other thing I'd like to add that might apply to this province and maybe Alaska only. There is way more goat opportunities than there is sheep.

I will also add that it takes more knockdown power to take down a goat that a simular weighted sheep or deer takes.

I've only been on one sheep hunt, and no goat hunts. But I asked my sheep outfitter, Larry Rivers, what I should take with me for goats, and he said he has gone to a .375 H&H for them. He says they are hard to put down.

Wayne

[ 08-21-2003, 11:07: Message edited by: wayne nish ]

Not that I can cite from a bunch of experience with exactly 1 North American goat and 1 sheep hunt, but still, here is my $0.02 worth:

It is my impression, that goats are often (not always, though) found in steeper and more rocky terrain. Tougher climbing for goats, not in terms of altitude to be gained, but in terrain to be negotiated.

I would also venture that goats are harder to put on the ground. Sheep are pretty thin-skinned animals, but a goat is a thick-set animal. I'm sure you could kill a goat with a .270 - the classic sheep cartridge - but I would not consider that cartridge ideal. A .30 cal or bigger would be better for the goat, my choice would be a .300 Mag of some sort. In Alaska I understand a lot of people swear by the .338 Win Mag for goats.

FWIW - mike

I agree with most of what has been posted so far, but I have a different theory about the toughness and tenacity of goats, and how to effectively deal with it. I have posted this before, but I have dredged it up again for anyone that has not read it yet and may be interested......

Neither sheep nor goat take a lot of killing. Sometimes I think sheep will fall over if you give them a mean look.

Goats are a lot more tenacious, but nothing short of a .458 will consistently "plant them". In other words, any of the smaller calibers will probably work as well as the other. Goats are not very big under all that hair, and do not require a great deal of penetration. Anything other than a heart-lung shot will usually result in a long tumble, so you don't generally want to take bad angle shots anyway. And there is no real reason to, as they are the type of animal you can sit and watch a while before shooting.

Here is a tip for you to consider. It goes against conventional wisdom though, so you can take it or leave it at your discrection. Most people shoot goats with the intention to anchor them. The theory makes some sense as I don't know of another animal with as much tenacity. A billy will drag himself off a cliff with his front legs if his back is broken. Believe me, I've seen it. Break only one front shoulder and I'd bet dollars to donuts that if there is a cliff nearby, you might as well start walking to the bottom of it to collect your beaten up goat. The problem with the "anchoring" theory is putting it in to practice. With the angles you are likely to get, at the distances that occur commonly in the mountains, factoring in wind etc, it is tough to make the shot that will anchor a billy in its tracks. Contrary to popular belief, a large calibre won't make up for a bad shot, especially when your objective is to break bones. [and given the sharp angles frequently associated with goat hunting, it might even give you a nice half-moon badge of honor on your brow!]

So here is a theory my friends and I have come up with. This is based on a number of successful hunts now, so it isn't just pie in the sky conjecture. The first thing is to make sure you are shooting a well constructed bullet, like a Nosler Partition or Barnes X or equivalent (you want a pass through, so frangible bullets won't do). Then, instead of shooting to anchor, put your bullet behind the shoulder and take out both lungs and no bones. Now resist the temptation to keep the lead flying until the goat hits the ground, and no hootin' and hollerin'!

Goats are used to loud noises from rocks falling. If the goats didn't know you were there, they will get up at the noise and look around. Many times they will just lay back down. If they do spook they will start moving up hill, as is their instinct for avoiding danger. After a little bit, they will settle down again.

The goat with the breathing problem will almost always lay down when it starts feeling sick. If you stay concealed until the goat is dead, you won't have to worry about finding it at the bottom of a cliff.

Goats are very tough. I think most of them end up taking a tumble simply because they know where the danger is coming from and in their attempts to escape wounded they make a mistake with their footing and down they go. It is their natural instinct to get into the cliffs to escape danger, and it seems logical that a goat that is losing blood fast or is incapable of using a limb is not going to be a very good rock climber.

Anyway, that is just my theory for your consideration.....take it or leave it.

Cheers,
Canuck

These seem like the obsevations of a bow hunter. Seeing that your usually concealed very well to get within shooting range anyway. Makes alot of sense to me. I had a goat do just that.

I decided against taken my 25/06 on my goat hunt this year. I thought I had a 100gr XLC load that was shooting 3/4" but lost it. They started to come together but I ran out of bullets. $$$ so I'll pass because I have three boxes of 140gr. XBT in 7mm sitting around and a 7mmmag I have'nt hunted with in years. Better suited I think. Just weighs 1 lbs. more.

So far my only experience is with aoudad in Texas. I'm impressed with the damage they can take. A friend nailed a ram pretty solid in the neck with a 7mm Mag. He went down at the shot, but came back up quickly and put some rocks between us before my friend could take a follow-up shot.

We figured we would find him dead when we got through crossing the canyon. Were we mistaken! He had started that dog-trot they do, and probably had 300 yards on us by the time we topped out. My friend took off after him, and I took my time figuring to get there for the cleaning and dragging.

The ram would lie down whenever he could, then move on when pressed. I think it took about three more misses and another well placed shot to end it. My friend was so winded he couldn't speak when I got up to him. He excused his lousy shooting by explaining that he had been sucking air so hard, and his heart beating out of his chest that he couldn't hold steady for the shots.

I adopted a strategy of not pressing an aoudad ram if I hit him hard with the first shot. They usually lie down fairly quickly, but take their time dying.

I thought I played it smart on one. He moved into some rocks and yucca after a lung shot and laid down. I could see him watching me. So I turned away and walked up the canyon went over the top and walked back to him. When I topped out he was still lying there watching the point where he had last seen me. I pinned him to the ground right there with the follow-up shot.

This year is the first time I've been hunting sheep...

But as Boileroom said, it's not FINDING rams that is hard, it's finding a LEGAL full curl that is hard...

Goats aren't all that hard to find either- I can see them with my spotter from my driveway, but there is not a huntable population there.

The big difference between sheep and goats are the size of their horns. A big 'trophy' goat is only another inch or two longer than a 'smaller' goat.

But even small rams have impressive headgear.

Of the small amount of goat hunting I've done (usually with someone elses LEH tag- I NEVER get drawn) I'd concour with Canuck. If you shoot them and they're not aware of what just 'took the wind out of them' they'll lie down a nd die.

Goats are pretty hardy creatures- I've found their meat good, but chewy

I'll let you know how our sheep adventures work out in a month or so..

Hmmm..so oftyen we get off track and don't answer the original question

Goats are almost always in tough, steep areas.

Sheep get more glory, but either hunt is hard won.

Goats can be in nasty areas, where you take 2 steps forward, and slide 1 step back

neither hunt is for those that don't want to hike hard uphill...I'm slow, but I always get there

Cannuck, I can't comment as a goat hunter but your theory makes a lot of sense and jives with what I've witnessed a lot of animals do. If undisturbed and shot through the lungs they don't exactly get what happened. As you say if you don't just keep slinging lead and hooting and hollaring they will not go far before they lay down. On several occasions I've shot deer with an arrow from a treestand where they quiver or jerk when the arrow passes through and then stand there or resume what they were doing only to wobble around and fall over.

Jeff

I have been reserching Mtn Goat and Ibex hunts for a while now and here is what I have come up with. Asian Ibex can be hunted in the same camps that trhe Marco Polo Rams are. Ibex $4500 Marco Polo about $25000. Stone sheep $15K to 18K. Mtn Goat $5K tp $7K. Also the Besoar Ibex and the Thar hunts in Turkey and New Zealand are far cheaper than Sheep. I think the Besoar Ibex is one of the most beautiful trophies in the World. I would rather have a big one than a Marco Polo.
Just my preference, but I think the Ibex are the best buy in hunting.

yukon,

I've only been Dall Sheep hunting once, and while unsuccessful, I was also never scared. Sure we were in mountainous terrain, about 4000ft in the Wrangell/St. Elias National Preserve, but it was not that bad.

I've been Mt Goat hunting 4 times. Once on Kodiak, where I was fortunate enough to connect with a Goat at around 3000ft (starting from sea level.) For two of the hunts, the Goats plain just won, and one hunt the weather darn got the best of me.

Everytime I've hunted Mt goat, I've scared myself. The terrain is just so darn steep, that any fall would have ended up as a major injury, or death.

Here's the one where the weather got me...



...the top picture is the day I flew in (solo), the bottom shot is the next morning (can't hunt the same day I flew in.) I was done! I've climbed those hills (cliffs) before, and knew the terrain was too steep for any kind of traction in snow.

I will try again in a week or so...

[ 08-23-2003, 14:00: Message edited by: BW ]