Hey CA hunters (and any that use them) I'm wondering if you're having any problems with the lead free bullets. I was just talking to a guy that just got back from Idaho, one of the things he mentioned was that he and his wife were using their lead free bullets from here and the natives there (people) don't like that.

He told me he's had problems with them not expanding. one was a through and through, lung shot, that missed ribs in and out so never expanded. he is thinking maybe the velocity is a problem, his personal experience being the ones he's had problems with (one was hit in the kill zone, great shot, short range, went down and then ran off, they searched hours for it) is that the shorter shots aren't expanding but those further out, when there's less velocity, do expand.

the through and through the deer took off, as they tried tracking it his nephew found it just standing there. he said the holes all the way through were just caliber size. never expanded.

I'm just curious if this is just happened to him or if others have expereinced the same. is the solution heavier bullets at lower velocities? (Man old Elmer would be smiling just thinking about that)

Red

Not much of an expansion problem on this sucker:

I def like the tsx to be doing around 3000 fps when it hits something

For the animals not found...um...well...shot placement. Hard to call it a bullet problem with no animal to examine.
I have heard of problems with the TSX but have never seen it. I run them in everything from .224 to 300 h&h with NO PROBLEMS. I usually shoot 100-200 animals (deer, hogs and nilgai) per year and have never seen a single failure to expand. Velocities run from 2100-3700 and I have calculated some long shots were the velocity would be around 1800 and all expanded. I love the TSX.

Perry

The Barnes is my bullet of choice, way before the ban.

They really are designed to pass through critters. I shot a leopard last year with at TSX in .375. The exit hole had this very cool 4 prong star pattern on the far side.

A few days ago I shot a Rocky Mountain goat going away. The bullet entered just left of the tail. I found it in the offside foreleg. A complete pass through stern to tip on a 300 pound animal.

I have never seen the total devastation as with fast expanding bullets. But they never failed to bring a critter down, either.

quote:

I usually shoot 100-200 animals (deer, hogs and nilgai) per year and have never seen a single failure to expand.

Wish I got that much hunting in per year!

Can't comment on the lead free ammo, I've had it out hunting but never had a shot opportunity. Sure is an increase in cost over the Remington Express Ammo though.

I shot 6 animals recently in South Africa from kudu to duiker. Gun used was a 300 Win Mag with 180 grain Barnes TSX bullets. All shots were complete pass through from ranges of 30 yards (duiker), 70 yards (blesbok), 125 yards (mountain reedbuck), 168 and 225 (kudu) and 271 yards (black wildebeest). No problems with any of the bullets not expanding. I hope to put one thru a bull elk later this week.

I'm looking to use these bullets, as well as the Tipped TSX, in other rifles.

The comments I typically hear about people not liking the copper bullets sound a lot like fear of change. It reminds me of when non-lead shot was first required for waterfowl. To talk to those veteran waterfowlers they would portray it like they had never missed or crippled a bird in their life until lead was outlawed. Is lead shot better than steel, yes, but a guy that's a rotten shot with steel wasn't great with lead either.

While I've always been happy with the copper rifle bullets (hate the copper pistol bullets, but that's a different thread), I fought as hard as anyone to avoid the lead bullet ban. I think a horrific precedent was set by letting this get passed and I'm ashamed that shooters and hunters in the rest of the country didn't band together better to help fight it.

But now that I'm stuck with them here: In my personal experience and with my guided clients I don't ever recall seeing a Barnes bullet fail to expand (other than solids obviously). I will say I think the average animal hit in the vitals may travel a bit further before they tip over, but the key is that they do in fact tip over. Without mentioning any names to start that whole mess... I've seen WAY too many animals that required back-up shots or were lost completely from bullets that didn't make it to the vitals even though the angle/placement was correct. In the big picture I'd much rather follow an animal a bit further and know that if the shooter did his part it will be at the end the blood trail rather than not finding the animal at all because the bullet didn't penetrate enough.

BTW - Doesn't that seem counter-intuitive when these folks attest that bullets expand larger at distance than at close range? That goes against basic physics and I've never seen ANY bullet act like that. In my experience those results are typically tainted by a hefty ego not wanting to admit poor placement at close range. Doesn't mean it's never happened, but I'd sure like to see more than one or two disgruntled gun shop story telling session trials before I could believe it.

Dago, you will find with the Barnes bullets (like most bullets) their are RABID fans, and RABID detractors. I don't seem to see a lot of folks in the middle, a few--like me--but not many. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Barnes sometimes do not expand, and just 'pencil' through, especially in sub 30 Caliber. I did a post here once where I showed that I had found many sub 30 caliber TSX's in which their 'hollow' point was ocluded with copper. Paper wet pack testing showed that ocassionally these bullets did not expand.

Higher velocity is usually cited as a PLUS with Barnes (see Kyler's post), helping them open up--I don't actually know the design envelope recited by Rem/Barnes, but perry seems damn knowledgeable to me, and he cites expansion down to 1800ish velocities.....I happen to support the position that it would not make sense for TSX's to do better at lower velocities at long range than at higher velocities and closer range.

I have shot a lot of game myself with Barnes, and am absolutely certain of no expansion, with no 'loss of petals' on ocassion with Barnes TSX's, sub 30 calibers in each ocassion. Having said that, I still like these bullets. I ALWAYS drill out the tips on any of these at sub 30 calibers that I hunt with, to insure the hollow tip is in fact open. I think the TSX's tipped or not, are one of the best all around bullets out there--I also think that some of the bonded bullets, like the Accubond are more versatile and use them often. I think that the Nosler E-tip and Barnes TSX's family and even the new Hornady GMX are great lead free solutions, and each has their quirks, but TSX's are very good bullets....do a search on AR, and you will find a lot of intel (and emotion) about them!

I started using X bullets way before the ban probably late 80's or early 90's. They fouled some and were not up to the accuracy standards of the Speers and Sierras I had used before. Then Barnes introduced the TSX and fouling and accuracy problems disappeared. These were all 308 cal and I have limited experience with smaller bullets and only 7 years with 375's. I have shot the 308's in Mrs Blacktailer's 308, my 30-06 and my 300RUM with velocities between 2700-3400fps. My experience has been very positive and I would not change if the lead ban were lifted tomorrow.

I only have one kill with the Barnes bullets so I really can't say they are the end all be all bullet. I shot a decent size antelope with the .100gr XLC out of my .25-06. It didn't do as much damage as I have seen done with Sierra game kings or pro hunters in the same caliber but the antelope didn't move but a few paces from where it was hit. I have read on this forum and other sites that Barnes has admitted that most of their research and development was conducted on their .284 - .338 caliber bullets as these were the most common calibers used for hunting. I don't know if Barnes actually made that statement or not as I only read it on a forum where someone claimed it to be from Barnes. If true it would make sense as they would be the most commonly used calibers in the US.
While I like the Barnes bullets I think on anything deer size and smaller I will stick to cup and core bullets and on anything larger I will either use the Barnes or a bonded bullet whichever is the most accurate in the rifle I am hunting with.

I started using Barnes TSX bullets five years ago. I booked a Buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe, built a .375 Ultra mag for that trip, and chose the 300 gr TSX bullet so I wouldn't have to mess with a soft point for the first shot followed by solids.

The 300 gr TSX bullets shot 3-shot moa groups out to 200 yds at 2800 fps. They performed perfectly on my Buffalo and 4 PG animals from Chobe Bushbuck to Nyala.

In 2007, I did a PG hunt in the Eastern Cape and again took my .375 RUM, this time shooting 270 gr TSX bullets. These bullets also shot 3-shot moa groups from my rifle at 3040 fps.

I shot 13 animals on that trip varying from Steenbok to Cape Eland with this rifle/bullet combination. Shot distances were from 30 yds on my Eland to 250 yds on a Vaal Rhebok and 348 yds on a Gemsbok. All but one shots were one shot kills, and usually the animal was DRT. Small animals like the Steenbok and a Jackal were just about blown apart, proving to me that the bullets were opening on the small animals.

About 3 years ago I built a .300 Weatherby Vanguard for my new Elk rifle. Because I liked the results of the TSX bullets in my .375 RUM, I decided to try them in the Weatherby. I'm getting 3-shot moa groups with both 168 and 180 gr TSX bullets in this rifle.

Last January some friends and I went on a Exotic hunt in West Texas. Since my new .300 Wby hadn't drawn blood yet, I took it and a box of 168 gr TSX handloads at 3290 fps on this Texas hunt. I shot 3 animals on that trip, a Blackbuck, a Scimitar horned oryx, and an Aoudad at ranges of 100-150 yds. All shots hit on the shoulder, were complete pass throughs, and all animals dropped within 30 yds of where they were shot.

Two days ago, my .300 Weatherby killed it's first Elk. I first spotted the elk at 375 yds, then I crept around the ridge to within about 100 yds, and put a 168 gr TSX just behind the shoulder of a 5 pt bull. The bull staggered at the shot, turned around, took one or two steps, and fell dead. I could put two fingers through the exit hole which was behind the opposite shoulder, and there was dollar coin size hole through his lungs.

I am definitely a fan of Barnes TSX bullets. Just make sure there isn't another animal standing behind the one you are shooting at.

I've been using Barnes bullets since the 90's. I've still got a bunch of the X bullets(pre TSX) in 35, 375, and 416 calibers. I bought a bunch of them because they were so much better than what was available before. With the original X bullets I've taken Elk, Nilgai, Eland, Buffalo, Moose, and other large animals. I did have a bullet that failed to open up, a 200 X from .35 Whelen at about 300 yds. It stopped in the hide after going through the heart of a 6x5 bull elk. I've used quite a few of the TSX since they came out with zero failures. Took 2 deer last week with 130 Gr. TSX in 270.

sounds like I should have no problems then. So my next question, due to their cost, is the fastest/most cost effective way to develop the load to do one in a same weight conventional bullet then switch out the bullet and confirm the load? You guys find this gets you close?

thanks all. I have them in 264, 45 and 308 for the 06, 264wm and the 45/70.

Red

check out the 2 threads I posted in American Big Game hunting with the successful colorado mule deer hunts. All of those bucks were killed by the same rifle/bullets: 270, 130 TSX. I personally have killed somewhere around a couple dozen game with various TSX/TTSX and have never had a problem or concern. My brother has killed quite a few as well, all with the 110 TSX from his 270.

Every single game animal wound up at the taxidermist and/or the freezer.

I will continue to use them until something negative happens.

I've used TSX exclusively since they first came out. I think they excel at the longer distances. I've shot whitetail at 70 yds and Red Stag/mulies at 310 yds. The only 2 I've recovered was that whitetail where I shot him head on and recovered in the back ham, and the other from an elk I shot at 279 in the back hide. These bullets resemble the "poster" Xs one sees.

As far as loads go, I am not a paient man nor do I have the time to work up a load. (I don't recommend doing this, but....) I generally look up a load 2-3 powders and start off .1 to .2 off max with the OAL suggested (.050 off the lands)and then find the powder I like and start tweakin the OAL til I find a sweetspot. Truth be known I've used both the Barnes book and the Hornaday book pretty much interchangeably as starting points.

They are not difficult to load and are very accurate. Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by perry: I usually shoot 100-200 animals (deer, hogs and nilgai) per year and have never seen a single failure to expand.
Perry

I love the TSX as well, but have seen three of them fail to expand.

One thing about loading the TSX. They are longer than lead core bullets, so I suggest dropping down a size from what you would use with lead. Long ago using the regular X bullets, I found that the lighter bullets per caliber were much more devastating. I used 350's in 416, where i used 400 solids. In 35 Whelen I use 200's which they quit making. The 200's I've shot lengthwise in elk more than once. The 350X in 416 lengthwise in Cape Buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
I love the TSX as well, but have seen three of them fail to expand.

Ditto. I'm going to experiment with the e-tips this coming year.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
I love the TSX as well, but have seen three of them fail to expand.

Ditto. I'm going to experiment with the e-tips this coming year.

I read a post somewhere that the Etips are very finicky on seating depth.

I'be been using the 200grn TSX out my .300 RUM for several years. Velocity is obviously very high and I've had zero expansion problems on shots ranging from 20 feet to 290 yards. That includes, whitetails, mule deer, antelope, hogs, zebra, kudu, elk you name it. If anything I would expect expansion problems at lower velocities, not higher.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
I love the TSX as well, but have seen three of them fail to expand.

Ditto. I'm going to experiment with the e-tips this coming year.

I read a post somewhere that the Etips are very finicky on seating depth.

I don't have enough experience with them to know, but my 308 Win groups the 150 etip into tiny groups.

Red,
I have not had a problem getting the TSX's to shoot accurately. Since they are longer than lead bullets, you should be able to drop down in bullet weight. Most of my experience is with 308 bullets in the -06 and I shoot 150gr for our little blacktail at about 2750fps. In my wife's 308Win I load 165's at about 2750 and she has used this on fallow deer, zebra and various plains game. Seat them at about .050 off the lands but if this won't work because of mag length (like in the 308), it doesn't seem to make an awful lot of difference. They seem to be farily accurate no matter what you do.
I don't see much reason to go super light at max velocity because you end up with more meat destruction. I shot a blacktail with my 300RUM 180gr X bullet at 3400fps at 200 yards. Had to throw away 1 front shoulder

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:

I'm just curious if this is just happened to him or if others have expereinced the same. is the solution heavier bullets at lower velocities? (Man old Elmer would be smiling just thinking about that)

Red

I shot an antelope with 85-grain Barnes with blue coating from 6mm-284 in September from about 75 yards; it ran about another 50 yards and collapsed. The next day, my hunting partner made a more-or-less identical shot with 30-06 and 150-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips. They ran about the same distance before flopping over.

I did notice that the uncoated bullets didn't shoot the same point of aim as Nosler Partition bullets from either a 7mm Mocel 70 or a Savage 24V.

Red,

Another forum has a 3-4 year running commentary regarding the use of the 30-06 with TSX bullets on African plains game. I haven’t checked since last year but having started with 180gr bullets they’ve progressed to 150gr bullets without performance issue. Basically, the 30-06’s velocity was to slow to assure 180gr bullets opened at longer distance. And, while the 165gr TSX worked very well there was a small percentage that failed to open at slower speed/longer distance. It appeared the 150gr TSX worked very well at close range and longer distance/slower speeds.

Also, the Terminal Bullet Performance thread has substantiated that traditional C&C SD can be thrown out the door when it comes to monometal bullet performance. Stay with traditional bullet velocity and lighter bullet weight and you should have no problems. Just make sure that you’re not using a monometal bullet properly designed for your intended game.