One should really want to stop the bear.

Full article at the link.

https://www.ammoland.com/2022/...lures-against-bears/


In 2016, this correspondent and others started searching for incidents in which a handgun was fired to defend against a bear or bears, and failed to stop the attack by driving off or killing the bear.

Access to a defensive tool, such as a shotgun, rifle, bear spray, handgun, hatchet, or knife all presents similar problems. Therefore we only considered cases where a handgun was actually fired. If we were looking at the effectiveness of bear spray, we would only look at cases where the bear spray was actually sprayed.

To prevent selection bias, all cases where a handgun was fired defensively against a bear or bears, which could be documented, were included.

Very good article. I worked and live in the woods here in the Pacific Northwest as a part time forester for 55 years. We never gave thought to bear or cougar because it was never a problem. Things have changed. In the past 15 years we have had children attacked by cougars and a couple of people killed.

Wolves that were bootlegged into our area by the tribes and a complicit F&G are now prolific in our area and in two instances hunters have been stalked and threatened by a pack. In one case one wolf was shot and killed. The F&G ruled it a justifiable kill so something was up or the indiviual who shot the animal would be penniless or in Jail. In our immediate area (2 miles) a small group of school children were held at bay in a school bus shelter by 5 wolves until the father ran them off. The animals were killed and it was found out they were a wolf hybrid that had been turned loose when the people raising them opened the gates and left the country. They had terrorized the neighborhood for a couple of months killing some sheep and lamas. The local farmers were the ones that killed them. I won't go into how the real wolf population has decimated our deer and moose population and the related restrictions to our hunting seasons.

I have had 1 cougar encounter. I walked up on a kill and the cougar left. I had one bear encounter. A sow with a cub. She started popping her teeth at me so I left. I never carried a gun with me until USFW stared dumping their problem bears in the area (1990's). I think there was enough local pushback they stopped. But the bears they dumped are still here along with a few locals who have passed through here for years.

Sadly the animals seem different. It seems like they all attended workshops on how to no longer be afraid of man. I don't know if its just more people and less space but they do seem more aggressive. I don't know anyone that goes into the brush anymore without a firearm my self included.

It seems strange I will go to jail if I unjustifiably kill a wolf but I can drive 10 miles into Idaho and buy as many tags as I want to kill one and our F&G tells us our problem is because Idaho's wolves immigrated into Washington. Kinda sounds like our Southern Border.

I think the jury is still out on this business of handguns and bears. Recall that our own Phil Shoemaker here just managed to save the lives of two anglers he was guiding by putting eight rounds of Buffalo Bore from his Smith 9 into a grizz at extremely close range. The coolness with which he deployed his handgun came from his many years of experience as a moose and bear guide in Alaska.
That said, I was reading this collection of bear deaths involving a 10mm, written by the same Ammoland author. The performance in most cases was mighty thin. Anyone reading this ought to skip over the 10 and find something a lot more capable.

https://www.ammoland.com/2022/...tacks/#axzz7Pg1SQ3ny

https://americanshootingjourna...dgun-puts-down-bear/

By the way, I agree with Bentaframe on the increasing conflict between bears, cougars and humans in the Northwest. In Oregon, it is a direct result of urban liberal potheads insisting they know how to manage wildlife populations by removing one of the only effective tools in hunting them -- hounds. These same urban libs will get a vacation cabin in the woods, or move to a small, rural community and begin feeding said critters, which of course only exacerbates the damage they have already wrought.

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Anyone reading this ought to skip over the 10 and find something a lot more capable.

Just do a search on 10mm hunting and one will find a lot of you tubes and articles on hunting with the 10mm.

With a little research one can decide for oneself how effective a 10mm might.

By and large most people are horrid pistol shots, with that said add in excitement, large heavy recoiling handguns that can't get multiple shots on target let alone the first one and you gave incidents where pistols are useless.
I love the guys who claim great accuracy with their big wheel guns but that is at a paper target shooting at their leisure, add a tense situation and add the need for quick follow ups and people are grossly lacking.

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Originally posted by Snellstrom:
By and large most people are horrid pistol shots, with that said add in excitement, large heavy recoiling handguns that can't get multiple shots on target let alone the first one and you gave incidents where pistols are useless.
I love the guys who claim great accuracy with their big wheel guns but that is at a paper target shooting at their leisure, add a tense situation and add the need for quick follow ups and people are grossly lacking.

How many pistol shooters practice against charging targets. A bear will sprint faster than any human. And then, nerves.

Went to an indoor range this week, one of the Range Safety Officers just to shoot with us in 22lr 50 foot Bullseye pistol. I asked him why we have not seen him in a while. Well he and Big Boy, both Safety Officers at the range, would practice prior to the match, and he did good. However, in the match, he was so rattled he was hitting the target frames, never mind the target. Big Boy was good, I scored him, he was an old USMC pistol team shooter, never got rattled, kept his mind on his business.

Big Boy found another job, and his bud can't focus under stress. Big Boy probably would be able to focus in an emergency situation, but few can.

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Originally posted by Snellstrom:
By and large most people are horrid pistol shots, with that said add in excitement, large heavy recoiling handguns that can't get multiple shots on target let alone the first one and you gave incidents where pistols are useless.
I love the guys who claim great accuracy with their big wheel guns but that is at a paper target shooting at their leisure, add a tense situation and add the need for quick follow ups and people are grossly lacking.

Again it comes down to 90%-7% and 3%.

90 percent of gun owners hardly ever practice 7% practice more and are fairly good shots 3% are the gun guys and shoot a lot.

But who are you or me to decide who is able to use the a handgun to defend oneself.

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How many pistol shooters practice against charging targets. A bear will sprint faster than any human. And then, nerves.

I firmly believe in practice other wise I wouldn't have fired well over a hundred thousand rounds of pistol ammo.

But when it comes to using one in self defense people have been successful with very little.

Just because you or anybody else thinks that one has to be a master class shooter.

Does not mean one has to be to be successful.

One of the instructors who regularly uses our county shooting range actually stages a charging bear scenario, with a very large target of a bear from the Alaska fish and wildlife folks mounted on a wagon. The drill is to have your back turned on the target, which is then pulled toward you by rope as fast as possible. At the shout of "Bear!" you turn and fire as many shots as you can before the target reaches you, preferably with a .44 Magnum or larger.
It's instructive, even though you know it is not real.

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The drill is to have your back turned on the target, which is then pulled toward you by rope as fast as possible. At the shout of "Bear!" you turn and fire as many shots as you can before the target reaches you, preferably with a .44 Magnum or larger.
It's instructive, even though you know it is not real.

Yes instructive but most have some time of warning that there is a bear around.

Other then a full out charge.

Situational awareness in any self-defense situation is very important.

Relay on all your senses and sixth sense.

A lot of people go through life in LA LA land and think it well not happen to them.

Id use a 41 magnum, as I shoot it best, but a hot loaded 44 would get me by I hope..those two guns I can shoot, beyond that Id rather run and climb a tree.. I do believe Id prefer hard cast Keith solids for their added penetrtion..

I've killed 10 black bears with handguns- all one shot.
I've killed 2 brown bears with handguns- one charging at 30 yards with a .375 JDJ Contender- one shot; and one at 129 yards with a .500 S&W, 375 gr. X, one shot.
If you know how to shoot, it's not real hard.
Also, those hard to kill Cape buffs: I've killed 3 (.375/.284 XP, .416 Taylor, .475 Linebaugh). All handguns. All one shot.

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Also, those hard to kill Cape buffs: I've killed 3 (.375/.284 XP, .416 Taylor, .475 Linebaugh). All handguns. All one shot.

Not to dismiss your abilities.

More like all hand rifles. They are not something one sticks in a holster and carries on ones hip.

Handguns only in the legal term.

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Originally posted by p dog shooter:

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Originally posted by Snellstrom:
By and large most people are horrid pistol shots, with that said add in excitement, large heavy recoiling handguns that can't get multiple shots on target let alone the first one and you gave incidents where pistols are useless.
I love the guys who claim great accuracy with their big wheel guns but that is at a paper target shooting at their leisure, add a tense situation and add the need for quick follow ups and people are grossly lacking.

Again it comes down to 90%-7% and 3%.

90 percent of gun owners hardly ever practice 7% practice more and are fairly good shots 3% are the gun guys and shoot a lot.

But who are you or me to decide who is able to use the a handgun to defend oneself.

I think this is a great reference point. I know several in my group who shoot 3 cowboy action matches a week and practice a night too. That is 500+ rounds a week. Competition pressure is not the same as a charge, but hitting the target controlled, quickly and accurately is. For 50 years of my life you had 2 choices in Ohio to hunt. A shotgun and slugs or a handgun in .357 diameter or larger. Pretty hard to say after 30 or so years shooting game with the big bore revolver and bringing home a buck and a doe every year to put on the meatpole these guys can't shoot. That said, I would rather have a rifle or a shotgun and slugs, but a handgun absolutely beats cajun hotsauce in a can.

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Originally posted by p dog shooter:

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Also, those hard to kill Cape buffs: I've killed 3 (.375/.284 XP, .416 Taylor, .475 Linebaugh). All handguns. All one shot.

Not to dismiss your abilities.

More like all hand rifles. They are not something one sticks in a holster and carries on ones hip.

Handguns only in the legal term.

The 475 Linebaugh, a revolver, does go on his hip and the 416 Taylor in a chest holster, just like the ones a large number of Alaskan fishermen wear. None of the three have a shoulder stock, handguns in the real term.

Ive shot a deer or two with a pistol at the ranch, but they were just targets of opportunity. If Im in bear country I will have a rifle. at least a 30-30, and Ill be horseback to start with..I suppose I consider a pistol of any caliber less than desirable for man or beast..speaking for myself and Im a good pistol shot..

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
By and large most people are horrid pistol shots, with that said add in excitement, large heavy recoiling handguns that can't get multiple shots on target let alone the first one and you gave incidents where pistols are useless.
I love the guys who claim great accuracy with their big wheel guns but that is at a paper target shooting at their leisure, add a tense situation and add the need for quick follow ups and people are grossly lacking.

If that is supposed to be an argument for the use of bear spray over a handgun Im not buying it. I would feel much more confident and well heeled with a handgun.
Before he died falling from a tree, I knew an Alaskan guide who would hunt Grizzly every year on his property. His weapon of choice was a 44 Magnum.

Good article. The point about bears being killed after an attack is a very good one. It makes no sense whatsoever for someone with access to a handgun to suffer a bear attack for the sake of the bear.

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I think the jury is still out on this business of handguns and bears.

We have our share of bear attacks around here and often by the time you realize there's a bear, you're dead. Best defense is to be constantly alert and aware of your surroundings.

Grizz

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We have our share of bear attacks around here and often by the time you realize there's a bear, you're dead. Best defense is to be constantly alert and aware of your surroundings.

The number of fatalities to the number of attacks is quite low.

Most people have some type of warning that there is a bear about.

If they heed it or not is the question.

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Originally posted by Atkinson:
Ive shot a deer or two with a pistol at the ranch, but they were just targets of opportunity. If Im in bear country I will have a rifle. at least a 30-30, and Ill be horseback to start with..I suppose I consider a pistol of any caliber less than desirable for man or beast..speaking for myself and Im a good pistol shot..

I hunt with a 50 sw using 275 grain barnes x at 1900 fps. As you well know, that is head a shoulders better performance than a 170 grain cup and core at 2000 fps out of a 94. The 6.5 inch hangun is easier to carry too. Recoil is less than my SW 29 with 300 grain bullets because of the weight, the porting and the nice grips. Feels like a 41 magnum in recoil. I prefer anything to bear spray.

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Originally posted by Atkinson:
Ive shot a deer or two with a pistol at the ranch, but they were just targets of opportunity. If Im in bear country I will have a rifle. at least a 30-30, and Ill be horseback to start with..I suppose I consider a pistol of any caliber less than desirable for man or beast..speaking for myself and Im a good pistol shot..

I agree with you Ray, I'd rather have a 30-30 or my 270 with me than a pistol. But how many times have you seen a bear in camp, fly fishing, or glassing for elk or other game and a grizzly just appears next to you with your rifle out of reach. All three have happened to me. They are so damn quiet. That's why I carry my Springfield V16 in 45 Super in bear country these days. Also I don't have a clue how to use bear spray. I'm a fair shot with a pistol.

The biggest advantage of a lot of handgun guns
.
They are easy to carry and have on you.

Now take my 460S@W with it's 10 inch barrel is not one of them.

But I own plenty that are.

Without special training most people are not able to fire at a target with any accuracy when under the pressure of immanent danger. That includes charging bears, elephants and humans.

I'll add from the law enforcement standpoint and experience with firearms, many of these arms need trigger work and fitting to the shooter. I have never personally enjoyed an out-of-the-box factory firearm. It gets sent away for a proper tuning.

My assigned sidearms at work pretty much sucked since we were not allowed to have them properly set up. Trigger issues mostly.

I appreciate your wisdom. I have a Springfield V16 LongSlide in 45 Super (worked over by the Springfield Custom Shop) and a Springfield Pro (a custom limited gun primarily built for the FBI). I'm not an expert shot, but I'm not bad, and practice monthly. Would I rather have my 500 Jeffery or my 270 Win in my hands, you bet, but either pistol beats the hell out of whacking a grizzly with my fly rod.

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I'll add from the law enforcement standpoint and experience with firearms, many of these arms need trigger work and fitting to the shooter. I have never personally enjoyed an out-of-the-box factory firearm. It gets sent away for a proper tuning.

My assigned sidearms at work pretty much sucked since we were not allowed to have them properly set up. Trigger issues mostly.

As a Law enforcement armorer inspecting hundreds of firearms a year. We tried to address complaints that shooter had with their firearms.

I found very few that truly were not serviceable. On those.

I have rep0lced parts, smoothed them to help problem guns.

But to modified them out side out factory spec's was a strict no no.

But A lot can be done within those spec's.

Far more often then not it was a shooters problem not a firearm problem.

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Originally posted by p dog shooter:

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I'll add from the law enforcement standpoint and experience with firearms, many of these arms need trigger work and fitting to the shooter. I have never personally enjoyed an out-of-the-box factory firearm. It gets sent away for a proper tuning.

My assigned sidearms at work pretty much sucked since we were not allowed to have them properly set up. Trigger issues mostly.

As a Law enforcement armorer inspecting hundreds of firearms a year. We tried to address complaints that shooter had with their firearms.

I found very few that truly were not serviceable. On those.

I have rep0lced parts, smoothed them to help problem guns.

But to modified them out side out factory spec's was a strict no no.

But A lot can be done within those spec's.

Far more often then not it was a shooters problem not a firearm problem.

Not every agency is like that. Mine sure wasn't.

What we did do that was good was training and qualifying monthly. I don't know if they still do that since I have retired but it did make for a much better shooter especially in stressful situations. Still, with a difficult trigger pull I can say with lots of observation and experience, it affected overall accuracy.

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Still, with a difficult trigger pull I can say with lots of observation and experience, it affected overall accuracy.

Good triggers help.

But having started out with double action revolvers' one can learn to master so so trigger pulls.

1911 triggers are awesome ..

Springfield V16 Longslide in 45 Super



Buffalo Bore ammo for it, due to the 16 ports it kicks with this ammo like an M9

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1911 triggers are awesome ..

They can be.

Good ones are.

Others need some work.

This is good subject matter and articles,
in that it gets folks thinking. Having Alaska homestead land means it is more than a passing subject for myself. I carry a pre-war Model 71 Winchester 450 Alaskan with 400 gr Kodiak bonded FP bullets.

Recent death of a trail cutter near his home in AK points to the problem of bear spray alone. {Bear coming from same direction as wind; or he can tolerate the stuff with his meal.}
Either way, carry something capable of stopping the fight-as Jeff Cooper used to say. A 1911 is a good choice, loaded with FP 230 gr Double Tap bullets -and extra magazines handy.

I prefer a Ruger BH in 45 Colt or 44 Magnum stoked with 300 gr tough bullets designed to penetrate. But still prefer the 450 Alaskan hands down: fast and reliable.

Mr Grizzly is smart, quiet and he can smell you
well enough to tell the color of your grandma's wedding dress.
In bear country, keep your nose to the wind and your eyes along the skyline. Practice and stay alert in his backyard.

Fine post, Mr. Fuller. May you live long and prosper.