I am seeking information on any bullet failures you have had with STANDARD bullets out of STANDARD calibres - meaning non-magnums.

I know the TBBC work very well, but are they necessary in a standard Cal?. For example, a 30.06 using 180 grainers has a MV of around 2700. Anyone had standard bullets fail at between 2200 and 2700?

Let's hear your experiences.
Thanks!!!

[This message has been edited by Johnny Ringo (edited 01-31-2002).]

Johnny,
Sorry,I can't help you out.I've shot over 20 deer with some Speer,and mostly Hornady standard bullets without any poor performances at all.I only shoot Whitetails,and my longest kill was at 200 yards.For a time,I used Nosler Partitions,but they don't kill any better and they don't shoot as accurately in my rifle.
Frank

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Frank

I have not used standard bullets for hunting since spending a long morning trailing up and finishing of an elk shot with 130g corelok from .270. The shot was @ 30 yards as the elk got out of bed. The bullet hit shoulder bone and broke apart. Partions are minimum for hunting deer or larger game. IMO

The only "Failure" I have ever experienced with Remington core-lok was a failure of the game to run off.

Good luck and good shooting

I had one of what I would call a failure with a 150 Sierra BT. out of a 30-06. Shot a mule deer with it and it blew up. Only penetrated a few inches. It did put the deer down, I had to shoot it again. I considered it a failure.

Just this past fall my son and I were hunting mule deer and had what I consider a failure, even though it resulted in one very dead deer.
Son was packing a 270Win that was loaded with some 140gr Hornady SPBTs when we jumped a huge buck out of some oak brush. Distance was about 30yds and as the deer angled away my son poked him through the vitals, he ran about 40yds and piled up.
The bullet tore itself to pieces and did not exit. No large bones were hit, it clipped a rib going in, destroyed part of one lung and the heart. We found no fragments or pieces in the off side so they must have been amongst all of the vitals we poured out of him!
Now I know some would consider this great bullet performance but I don't. Anytime I hit a deer in this fashion with a 270 and don't get an exit something is terribly wrong. I'll not be hunting with any standard bullets from now on, I insist on two holes. One going in and another going out!
I'm sure if the range had been 130yds instead of 30yds that bullet probably would have exitted, based on past experiences. But you can't count on getting a certain shot while hunting! I want a bullet that does the job I want it to each and every time, from any angle and any distance I might encounter.
Hunting is expensive these days, regardless of doing it yourself or hiring a guide. Premium bullets are cheap insurance against a disaster happening, regardless of caliber or cartridge chosen.

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 01-31-2002).]

If you hunt and shoot enough game you will have a failure from time to time...Don't ever buy off on the old adage about "at what point in the animals death did the bullet fail" that came out of the Sierra office by an idiot...Probably the second shot was the point the animal died....

today failures are rare but I can remember when it was not uncommon..the only handloading bullets were Sierra and pre interlock Hornadys and they failed quite often. Sierras still do, a bit more than others...

I have had a lot of failures with Hawk and Winchesters new silvertip bullets and don't use either of them anymore..Most any of the conventional bullets will fail, because they don't have a means of locking the lead to the jacket....

I have seen a lot of BarnesX fail, but those that didn't fail were mostly picture perfect, so it has to be quality control...the best monolithic is the GS Custom and they also have the best solid (the FN)....

Woodligh, Northfork, Nosler, GS Custom, and a few others never fail unless they are abused by velocity for which they are not intended...In the more or less conventional class but near a premium are the Hornadys and Rem Corlokts, both fine bullets.

that about sums it up as far as I'm concerned and it's argueable...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

My own two experiences:

1. Norma Vulcan 180 grains in a .30-06. Jacket separation after chest hit on roe buck at 10 yards. Found the empty jacket in the moss. However, the buck died pretty good.

2. RWS Brenneke TUG 180 grains in .30-06. A wounded moose went away and I had too shoot at 300 yards. The shot hit a heavy houlder bone and was totally destroyed, leaving just a coffea cup big crater in the bone. I had to give that bull a third shot before he dropped.

Best regards,

Fritz

I haven't on deer. As you're talking of 180s you must be after sterner stuff.

[This message has been edited by 1894 (edited 01-31-2002).]

Hi
I experienced the following:
25-06 120 gr speer boat tail @ 3000 fps.(standard for 25-06)
I shot a roe deer (45 lbs ) at 50 yards at 45 degree angle in the ribs. The bullet hit one rib and created a 4"x2" (thats right 10x5 cm)ENTRANCE hole.
Of cause the deer expired promptly!
I found bits and fragments of the bullet as I
prepared the meat for cocking.

Had the deer been of a bigger spieces and the hit a bit further forward, I might have had a wounded animal to track!

By the way, the bullet changed direction inside the roe deer, turning 45 degrees avay from the direction of fire.

I have also seen Sierra 300 gr45-70FN-HP@ 1750 fps striking velocity to loose its jacket and allmost turn into a lead disc hitting moose.

//Softlead

I have never shot anything larger than a deer and hope to never see the day when it takes a Premium to kill one but have had enough inconsistancies on them to realize that anything larger and I would use a premium bullet. I have had Core Lokts to blow up inside deer and a Sierra Game King to go straight through without expanding. End results were dead deer but.....

I've had what some people would call bullet failures with various standard bullets and a few premiums to. However, they never failed to put the game down. The only times I have had failure to anchor an animal was my failure to put the bullet in the right place.

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Be content with what you have but never with who you are.

I've had a couple of minor fairures with 150 grain core-loct and honady bullets. At close range they lost 75% of their weight. The rem bullet hit the shoulder on a large buck, so I guess I'll excuse it, but the hornady was a broadside/slightly quartering toward me shot, and the bullet blew a huge entrance hole and what was left was found under the skin on the opposite side. I now prefer to use 180 grain bullets that don't seem to have that problem.

DP

I have also had Rem Corlokts fail in 30-06. Shot a very large bull elk at less than 100yds. Had to shoot him 3 times, first shot blew up on the shoulder, second shot behind the shoulder and blew up on the rib, not even taking out one lung, last shot I moved up and shot the neck vertebrae and that shot also blew up and didn't exit. It did sever the spinal cord, but I consider all three to be bullet failures. I have never hunted with standard bullets again. I agree with Robert and especially with John S. The bullet is the absolute cheapest part of the hunt, and can be the one thing that makes or breaks the hunt, you cannot always control what shot is presented to you. 2 exit holes whenever possible, that means a premium bullet, the way I look at it, I can't afford NOT to use them.

BigBores, what grain of Core-lock??
Pointed or roundnose??

Well Big Bore if you got no penetration on your rib and shoulder shots how exactly did you move up on him for the neck shot? Wounded elk in my experience can take that kind of punishment and climb a mountain and go several miles before slowing down. Having picked so many corelokts off the hide on the far side of elk I and friends of mine have shot that I find your story hard to believe.

Johnny,

Sorry to omit that, they were 150gr spirepoints. Yeah, I know, too light for elk...I haven't repeated that mistake again either. The shoulder shot I can forgive, since I never should have shot that bullet into the socket, it's the rib and neck shots that I cannot forgive, even a 150 should have survived those impacts.

rickt,

The bull was running left to right at maybe 80 yds away, first shot, BANG (shoulder shot), he slows down and STOPS, turned and looked at me maybe 120 yds then...huh? says I..., and BANG again (behind shoulder shot), he lurches at the shot and takes off at a trott, goes maybe another 30 yds and STOPS AGAIN and looks at me...what the hell!?...BANG again (neck shot) and he flops over. Upon dressing him I found that the shoulder ball and socket were completely distroyed, but nothing penetrated to the vitals. I think he was unable to run with no front shoulder. The lung on the rib shot entry side had some minor damage, but it would not have been fatal for a long time, if ever, in my opinion, just not enough damage done. The bullet into the neck didn't even exit the neck, that shot alone should have exited and I was amazed that it didn't. In closing, that is what happened, I was both lucky and unlucky on that hunt, it was my first centerfire elk hunt (a muzzleloader bull in NM before that one) and I have changed much of my hunting equipment since then, I use a 338 Win or a 375 H & H exclusively for elk, I ONLY shoot premium bullets, and personally I could give an unholy crap less if you believe it or not. OK?

BigBores,
I have killed two whitetail with a 300Winmag. and 150gr. CoreLokt at less than 100 yards, a friend killed a very nice 13 point this year that scored 174 Buckmasters, with the same fotter, all were broadside behind the shoulder shots and none of the three bullets gave complete penentration. I am not calling these examples bullet failures because the vitals were completely destroyd and the deer all died within a few seconds but I can easily see how this type of performance could lead to failures on Elk.

I have seen many standard bullet failures on deer, elk, moose, and bear. Most of these were from using the wrong standard bullet on the particular animal such as 150's from a 30-06 on elk. I have had/seen several premium bullet failures as well, including Partitions, X-Bullets. Shooting 150 Gr. Core-Lokt from a 300 Win is asking for failure.

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JD

?

[This message has been edited by beemanbeme (edited 02-01-2002).]

JD,
You got it right. I think 95% of failures are due to guys CHOOSING the wrong bullets for the game.

Use a "heavy-for-caliber" standard bullet in a standard caliber, and I think you will see very few failures in your life.

For everyone's info, Guntest magazine did some testing on .308 cal bullets out of a .308
rifle. They tried to simulate different impact conditions, and in all cases, the 150 grain Core-lock failed miserably. They recommended you shoot it at NOTHING but paper.

HOWEVER, the same outfit did a similar test, using 180 grain bullets at .300 Win velocities. The 180 - repeat 180 Corelock PSP
did very well in all tests.

For some reason, the 150 grainer seems to be one to stay away from.

"Go heavy for caliber....beefed up bullet that is slowed down to non-failure velocities"

I have shot two game animals with the 150 grain corelokt. The first was a large mule deer in rut through the neck at 300 yards. the bullet made a two inch diameter hole through the neck bones and exited, this from a 30-06 pushed by 57.5 grains of IMR 4350. The other was a 200 pound feral hog. The hit was just behind the shoulder and the bullet penetrated through the chest to the opposite shoulder breaking the shoulder bone and shattering the shoulder blade and bored into the gristle plate in a somewhate overexpanded shape with core. It ended up just under the hide and was a factory loaded 300 Winchester mag, distance 30 yards. Now from my experience I would use this bullet for any game under 400 pounds with confidence. Incidently the hogs lungs and heart were turned into a soup of sorts.

J.D.
Providing that the 150gr. Cor Lot's are used on deer or simular sized game at 300WinMag velocities and shots are kept behind the shoulder the performance is more like what rick300 described (turning vitals into soup) than a failure. I used this recipe when I was younger and wanted the biggest stick in camp but have since settled for a smaller caliber and an exit hole, but still with proper shot placement the 150's and 300Mag. are very deadly on deer, even without an exit wound.

rickt & heavy: I have no doubt that you have successfully killed deer and hogs with a Win Mag and 150 Gr. Core-Lokt bullets. That combination is going to fail when you hit a heavy bone; my nephew had one fail on a small elk out of a 30-06. Maybe you won't lose game to learn your lesson, but he did. I have had failures on just about every brand and type bullet, but I have never lost a game animal due to bullet failure. Usually it took the second or third to do the trick though when the wrong bullet was used for the job.

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JD

The only reason I used the 150 cl in the 300 is that I had four boxes to shoot up for brass and the load shot so well in my rifle. I load it exclusively with 200 grain speer hot cors, the spitzer. This bullet never fails. Why would anyone use the 150 cl on elk? The 180 core lokt works plenty good on elk if your not foolish and try to smash the onside shoulder with it.

rick: He used the 150 Gr. core-lokt on elk because he didn't know any better. He learned the hard way.

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JD

Well i guess you can't call it bullet failure if you use it for something it wasn't designed for.

Rick,

Well with my 338 Win mag and 210 or 225 partitions I have "foolishly smashed" both front shoulders on elk from under 100 yds to over 300 yds. I always get an exit wound, and I have never recovered a bullet. The terminal performance is awesome, pure elk poison, there is no going back for me, the difference is like night and day. The 375 is even more of a good thing, with it I am master of all I survey within 500 yds.

Well then you didn't mind the destroyed shoulder complete with meat loss and the bone fragments splattered through the backstrap. I was referring to the use of the 180 grain corelokt from an '06. Sure you can up gun until you can break bone and get there from any angle but this always results in lost meat which in the case of an elk is a shame. Why not show a little finess instead of grunt brute force?

Rick,

I understand your point to be sure, but why should I hunt with a combination that is limiting when I am in a hunting environment that I cannot control all the variables?

If I am presented with a 200-300 yd shoulder shot because that is all that is offered to me, say the elk is standing just barely clear of a tree, just the shoulders are clear, and the ground between us is open and clear so a closer stalk isn't possible, why should my equipment dictate whether I can take the shot, (or dictate that I cannot take the shot), lets assume that I have practiced enough with my rifle and load that marksmanship isn't an issue here. Call it finess if you want, but I hardly think that is the point. As to meat loss, well I think a disintegrating corlokt will blood shot ruin about as much meat with its bullet particles, if not more than my partitions will in a 338, my 30-06 elk kill had more meat loss than any of my 338 or 375 kills. If I shoot an elk in the shoulder with a 338 partition, you won't find any bone fragments in the backstrap (backstrap??). I normally say right about here to "shoot what you want". I do think that if your primary reason for bullet selection is cost, that you are substantially missing the point. If you honestly think that a corlokt or a "whatever" brand "standard" or "non-premium" bullet is the BEST bullet you could select for your application then fine. If it is not the BEST bullet for your application then you are letting your wallet chose your equipment, and with bullets being the absolute cheapest component in the hunt, I for one, don't mind buying a better tool for the job. But I say again, shoot what you want.

Guys, great discussion.

Watch for my post on "Failures of PREMIUM bullets"

I've personally experienced three bullet failures.

#1 Failure: 30-06 with a standard 150 grain Speer on a mule deer buck, 150 yards. This was shooting from a rimrock at a steep angle down at a deer below me at the bottom of the cliff. Struck the deer in the spine and the bullet come completely apart. It did shatter the spine which put the deer down (but not dead). It looked like I shot a pillow as there was a cloud of deer hair that blew up in the air. Had a surface hole nearly 5 inches in diameter. Nothing penetrated beyond the spine.

#2 failure: Shot a broadside whitetail buck with a Ruger .44 Magnum semi-auto rifle at 50 yards. Used Remington 240 grain softpoints, factory ammunition. The bullet hit an onside rib and came completely apart. The closest lung looked like it had been shot with a load of #9's. The inside of the opposite rib cage didn't have a mark on it.

Failure number three was with a 270 Speer Grand Slam bullet that came completely apart But since it's touted as a "premium bullet", I will wait for that thread.

Yes, in all cases the animal died. But in both cases I got virtually no penetration. I'll pay the extra bucks for a Nosler Partition or a Fail-Safe and lessen the chances of a surprise.

[This message has been edited by Matt Norman (edited 02-05-2002).]

I guess I have to say I do shoot what I want but my choices are not for everyone. Neither are yours. I avoid hitting the shoulder bone if it is on the side I am shooting at, conversly I often shoot at the offside shoulder after my bullet penetrates the rib cage. I prefer to have my bullet perform on the animals lungs and heart not on hard bone and get whats left to work on his vital parts. Penetration, while necessary is not everything. I have used the 338 but found it wanting in trajectory so I now use a 300 winchester magnum with 200 grain speers or nosler partitions.

quote:

Originally posted by dogtagger:
I've had a couple of minor fairures with 150 grain core-loct and honady bullets. At close range they lost 75% of their weight. The rem bullet hit the shoulder on a large buck, so I guess I'll excuse it, but the hornady was a broadside/slightly quartering toward me shot, and the bullet blew a huge entrance hole and what was left was found under the skin on the opposite side. I now prefer to use 180 grain bullets that don't seem to have that problem.

DP

Weight loss is extreme in most cases

Warrior

Hey Warrior
Scraping the bottom of the barrel hey? Some of these guys are not even around from six years ago. You forgot to mention Hot Core again.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
...Weight loss is extreme in most cases

(as usual)

I must be lucky,I dont remember any bullet failures over the last 30 years.

On heavier game, standard Hornadys work pretty well most of the time. On deer-sized animals, there it would be really hard to find an inadequate bullet. Even .243 100 grain Sierras have always exited on broadside shots.

I thought a 2 and a half year old thread was bad, but a 6 and a half year old thread .

Ken....

150 gr. bullet are not ment for elk in 30 caliber and not paticularly good in .284 caliber unless they are monolithics and thats argueable...

180 gr. and 200 gr. .308 caliber and 160 or 175 in .284 caliber bullets are elk bullets..I don't know why anyone would use light deer bullets on elk, a bull elk is as big as a small stud horse.

Sure the light bullets work most of the time, but not all the time and thats the first clue and that is what causes these types of discussions. The folks that have not yet had a failure like em, the ones that have do not and in time the guys that like them will find out who's right....Guess its a learning process.