will it kill efffectively and with what bullet and to what placement on the deer....all info appreciated.....

Yes it will kill Deer effectively when put into the boiler room. Make sure you DON'T use varmint type bullets or FMJ mil surplus but use a good quality bullet like a Nosler.
Also check local regulations as in most states there is a requirement for .23 or .24 minimum caliber.

Will it kill yes, there is a huge number of poachers out there using 22WMR, but when you say effectively then that is where it gets iffy. I have advocated the 243 win quite a bit as an acceptable deer rifle, with proper bullet shot placement etc. I would think that you are gonna have a lot of tracking to do if you hunt with this often. Head shots, as much as I don't like them would be in my opinion the best route for quick kills, I have seen them run with lung shots from much bigger chamberings and I am not sure that the smaller 223 bullets would leave all that great of a blood trail either. Also Greg brings up a good point about legality. I guess in summary will it, yes do I advise it, I don't think so. just my .02 gabe

If you decide to go with it, make sure you use appropriate bullets. The 64 gr. WW Power Point, the 63 gr. Sierra semi sptitzer, and the 70 gr. Speer are designed to hold together. All the Barnes X designs will work as well.
Like the man said, small wound channel and blood trail.
I did see some video captures from Big Stick once showing his son shooting a Blacktail in the shoulders. The 64 gr. PP bullet broke both of them. E

I believe Finn Aagaard's last published article was on this subject. Using the 22's with the premium bullets (X bullets, trophy bonded and partitions) on West Texas white tails.

His conclusion was that it was adequate, but he would rather see something bigger. Far be it from me to second guess Mr. Aagaard.

There is, of course, a huge difference between a 90 lb hill country doe and a 350 lb northern mulie. Personally, I would have no problem going after smallish deer with a 223 and a 53 gr. XLC at 3100 --- with the usual caveats about range and bullet placement. JMO, Dutch.

Dutch makes a very good point. Twenty-two caliber centerfires are pretty popular for deer in Texas, at least the parts of Texas where deer are typically fairly small in body. Maine or Saskatchewan, with their NFL lineman-sized deer, are a different story.

While the bullets previously mention (with the exception, in my opionion, of the Barnes X) will do fine on deer, I actually prefer something like the regular Hornady 55 grain spire point. On small-to-medium deer you've actually got no problem reaching the vitals, even with a direct shoulder hit, and you need fairly rapid expansion with the small .22 slug.

I dare say that a far lower percentage of deer are lost each year by hunters using .22 centerfires than hunters using something like a .30-30.

I usually refrain from getting into these discussions but feel the need to voice an opinion. Yes, in the hands of a skilled hunter who waits for exactly the right shot a .22 centerfire will kill a deer. It is not justified or sportsmanlike in my opinion however. If you want to shoot 60 lb. deer with one OK, but for any normal whitetail size deer please use a suitable caliber. 100 gr./.243 as a minimum but 140 gr./.25 or larger is preferred. I also read the article on the .224 TTH and was not impressed with it's use for deer size game. If you can shoot a .223 or 22-250 you can learn to shoot a .243 or .25 cal.

The .223 is quite deadly on smallist deer forsure. It is really good for pre-teen kids to shoot accurately and without flinching and I reccomend it for them or small women. The biggest buck I ever shot(140 lbs. field-dressed 10 point) was taken with the 64 grain power-point in the shoulder. He hobbled for about 40 yards and collapsed. The .223 is certainly not anywhere near the best caliber but will work pretty well. BUT, don't expect a good blood trail. Now, a .243 is quite good for most deer hunting including big deer with the 100 grain premium bullets. Many deer are killed very quickly with 55 grain varmint bullets in .223 but the ammo makers came out some years ago with actual "deer rated" bullets like the bear-claws, power-points, partitions and X-bullets so it is only ethical to use them. One more thing, the .223 will cause alot more bloodshot meat than larger calibers; it's a real bear for creating a shock wave(bruising).

Careful shot selection and a 62 gr Nosler partition works just fine. Takes some patience ... but not as much as required with a bow. Obviously not a good approach for thick cover.

That being said, I cannot recommend it as the margin for error is small to yield a fast, humane drop.

P.S. Head shots are too risky for missing or maiming(shoot the nose off). But a neck shot close to the shoulders is very reliable.

Interesting.

It seems that those who recommend against a .223 for deer have never used one for that purpose and those who recommend in favor of it (at least conditionally) have used a .223 or similar .22 Centerfire to kill deer.

Take your pick. Experience or presumption. Each has a certain appeal.

browningguy brought up the same point I was going to make. I've been reading for about three years on the 224 TTH (Texas Trophy Hunter) round, which is a 6mm necked down to 22 and uses a fast twist (1-8 or 1-9) and using 60-80 grain bullets.

I have never been a big fan of deer hunting with a 22 centerfire. I've done it, seen it done, etc. but it's just not my cup of tea.

There is no doubt that any deer can be taken with 22 whether it be a 100 lb or a 300 lb or an elk for that matter, but the degree of luck and skill are too great for me, odds aren't in my favor.

I prefer people flaming me for being overgunned than undergunned. One of my many sayings is, "it's better to have and not need it than need it and not have it." Also, there is no such thing as overkill, dead is dead and there aren't varying degrees of it. You definately can "under" kill one, it's called wounding.

These are just my thoughts, you are more than welcome to do what you wish, as long as it's legal.

Jim

I have shot a couple of Texas deer with the .223 and I'll agree that deer should be shot with bigger calibers....But, I have a 9 year old little girl that can consistantly shoot a 3" group on her own, with no help from me. She is going to be toting that little .223 for her second season to try and get her first deer. There are 2 reasons that I believe she will be successful: 1) she shoots it well and will only be taking 'perfect' shots; standing broadside at less than 100 yds. 2) I don't have a .243 to put in her hands yet!

Flame Away!

[ 10-24-2002, 23:49: Message edited by: TXPO ]

Stonecreek, it's not presumption, just basic sportsmanship. If you want to shoot 1000 yd. matches use what you want, if you want to shoot animals I believe you have an obligation to kill them as quickly and cleanly as possible. I spent several years as a Navy Beachjumper and I've shot thousands of .223 rounds so I'm pretty confident in what they will do. Never shot one at a deer though because it's not sporting in "my opinion". Like 338 said (never met him but seems like my kind of hunter)it takes too much skill and luck for me to risk it. Now a 338 Lapua is definately enough, I split the difference. I currently hunt with a .270 Win., .308, 30'06, and I just ordered a new custom rifle in 7x57. Planning another custom in the spring, probably a 375 or 416 Taylor for the really big deer.

The little 223 works fine on the Standard Texas whitetail. Shoot Good bullets,ie:Nosler,Barnes,GS custom, something that wont fragment all to pieces. Then use good judgement on your shot's and put them only though the boiler room. Practice and good judgement are the key...Ive seen lots of deer wounded by" Magnumitis". On a plain Whitetail 100 to 175 pounds the little 223 can hold its own if you can do your part.

Let me tell you a little story. See around the time I got to be of legal hunting age, my dad realized he didn't have a rifle for me. We had rifles laying around but the one I was most familiar and confident with was the Mini-14. This is one of the old ones...blued metal, wood stock, peep sights without scope rail. I practiced and on Opening Day, I carried that rifle loaded with 55 grain soft points. And sure enough that morning I got my shot at a deer. It was a young forked horn muley. You could tell he had never been shot at before. He stood there while I jumped out of the truck, chambered a round, aimed, and fired. Then he stood there some more. Finally, he walked behind a tree and started coughing, then laid down and slid down the hill right to the road. The little soft point had went in right as I had intended it to on the inside of the right shoulder and penetrate diagonally through the chest, exiting in front of the left hind leg. It had penetrated a lung, the diaphram, the liver, stomache, and numerous less vital organs along the way. But the little bullet simply didn't have the energy necessary, even at a shot distance of 50 yards or so, to put this animal down. If it had been a little smarter, it would have ran. And if this had happened, it would have had time to cover a fair amount of distance.

Bottom line...yes it will do the trick. But if you have a choice, you should opt for something bigger.

And whoever suggested you check local laws if correct. We have no caliber restrictions in Montana but I know many states want a minimum .243 cal.

A 223 will do the trick. Lots of people use them around where I hunt. In Central TX, you can almost poke your finger through a deer's ribcage they are so small. Although I don't suggest using one of the .22's on deer, one will work. I have killed a few with a .22 LR in my younger days, (I'm not the only one) and a properly placed shot will work.
I guess it depends on the size of the deer, range, legality, and shooting ability of the hunter.

Forget about it in Kansas. Deer rifles must be in claibers greater than .23. That means .243 is the practical legal minimum here. Similarly, rifles for elk hunting must be in calibers greater than .25, making a .260/6.5mm the bare minimum.

hi thecrafter,
.223 22-250 perfect for small deer, we get hundreds of deer shot with the 22 centerfire! all dead! but don't forget a gut shot deer is still a gut shot deer with any caliber. Here in the UK it is illegal to use anything less than 240 cal on deer, however it is legal in Scotland, and in Ireland they are not allowed any military calibers and there was a restriction on max caliber. Many professional stalkers in Ireland shot Large deer (red/Sika) with only 22 centerfires. Don't expect it to have the same effect on deer as the larger calibers,but used within its limits you will have the same end result.
good hunting

Griff

Here in Alberta, the 243 is the legal minimum. When I lived in the terrritories, I went along with a few of the Dene/Inuit I worked with and watched them hunt EVERYTHING with three calibers, 222, 30-30, and 303 British. There was no choosing the right caliber for the game, they just thought that any gun would do as long as you got close enough and shot enough times. Seemed to work, although I wouldn't call it sporting, more subsistance hunting, I guess. I've no doubt, having seen it done, that a 22 cenetrfire will kill game (caribou, seals, walrus, fox, wolves, hares, polar bear, ptarmigan, muskox) but it doesn't do it quickly enough for me. I'll stick to larger calibers. FWIW - Dan

Hey FarRight, it's a possibility that little mule buck couldn't run from just shear shock of the bullet's damage. One thing about the .243 is that despite it being a mild cartridge, it is quite a step up from the .223 in that it has an actual recoil whereas a .223 in a full size rifle only vibrates the gun upon firing.

Sure if you have no ethics use a .223!!! People it's and Varmit Round!!! Use the appropriate caliber if your going to hunt Big game you owe the animal atleast that much respect

Leo, true. But it still didn't go down as fast as I would have liked. I felt much better armed with my .270 and even better now with my 7mm Rem Mag.

I'll still maintain that although it will kill deer given proper consideration to bullet selection and shot placement, a larger caliber should be preferred if the hunter has a choice. At any rate, I would keep shots to 100 yards and under.

I saw a deer run off after being hit with a 223 at about 400 yards. But I do not know if the hit was in a vital area or not. Nonetheless, the deer ran up a steep mountain and we could see it for a half mile.

Ok, let's see if we can get to a bottom line here. Will it work, yep, honestly it doesn't take much to drop your average run of the mill white tail. They have thin skin, their bones aren't all that tough, their kill zone is relatively large in comp to their body size. But..... If you muff the shot, and everyone of us is suceptable to that, really it happens, then you are looking at all of the problems that are mentioned above. If you ace the shot it still may or may not be a quick kill, and no the larger calibers don't give you liscense to gut shoot or anything else you just get a larger margin of error with them. If it was use a .223 or not hunt that would come down in my book along side the 45-70 on buff, if it is the difference between hunting or not put the gun in my hands. If recoil is the big issue really I haven't seen much difference in the 22 cf rounds and the 24s or something like the 6.5x55 and they would both be better overall performers. gabe

get a grip you lot!
big game! 400 yds now who's being unsportsman like.
once again 223/22-250 perfectly adequate for small deer out to 250/300yds.
my understanding of big game"cape buff,bear,etc"
not 50-150lb deer.
Anyone who has shot deer with a 223/22-250 or any of the other 22 centerfire will tell you it kills quickly and efficiently,meat damage can be excessive, and exit wounds are large.
Seen it! done it! haven't read about it, and aren't recalling secondhand stories.
Of course bullet selection is of the upmost, but then again I wouldn't shoot a deer with a v.max out of a 25-06, so common sense should prevail.
400 yds and it ran off! was it laughing!!!

Griff

Have personally witnessed a few truckloads of whitetails efficiently euthanized with 0.224" rounds. Lots of "antlerless whitetial tags" to be hade here in MT these days. As we don't shoot them for the horns, and it is stricly a protein gathering thing, meat damage is the primary concern.

The 223 works fine, as does the 17 Rem. I have used my 14 Mach IV when the situation is correct, and can confirm P.O. Ackley's observations that the 17 clalibers can and do kill deer-sized game very well. However the 22-250/220 Swift rigs are the preferred setup with my cronies.

I shoot deer (and elk intended for the table) in the head, and occasionally in the neck. They never do anything but immeadeatly succumb to gravty. If you have the proper situation and skill level, the noggin' shot is the only way to go. You don't need a friggin' magnum to kill elk or deer, if you can place yourself and the shot correctly. AND YES,I SHOOT MATCHKINGS

DEDA

A few years back I shot 3 small whitetail with a .222 and killed them all. The last one I shot was at 175 yards and the bullet did as much damage to the top of the heart as if I had stabbed it with a pencil! The big artery exiting the heart simply had a hole in it. No way enough energy to cleanly kill at that distance. I was lucky and will not use that gun for deer any more. I loaned that same gun to a 12 year old that same year and both of the deer he shot were found a few weeks later. Both shot a little far back, but not through the guts. We have come to the conclusion that the .222 is really too small for deer.

I have shot several deer with .22 calibers rimfires, .222, .223 and 22-250. CNS shots kill regardless of bullet, but body shots on deer with most of these give pretty anemic results. I shot a large Muley buck with a .223 with about 2 inches of penetration. The 55 Gr. bullet mushroomed perfectly and deflected along the rib and did not penetrate to the vitals; a subsequent CNS shot anchored him. I shot a large Whitetail doe with the same 55 Gr. bullets 3 shots at 50 yds. the 2nd and 3rd while running. All three shots should have been fatal, but I am convinced that no single one would have stopped the deer very quickly, even though lungs were penetrated.

A well placed CNS shot will do the trick, but I am convinced the .223 will not kill quickly with shots to the vitals, even though I have done it several times.

.22 centerfires are quite effective, but they're not for everyone. They are ideal for someone in a game management situation, where shots can be picked at stationary animals within a preselected distance range. In such situations the inherent precision of these calibers is more of an asset.

It happens that I shot my first several deer with a .22-250. Later on I was able to conclude that it handled the job as efficiently as the .300 Mags that I now employ for just about everything. Deer either dropped in their tracks or ran as much as 60 yards......we've all seen this with all calibers. No news here.

Still, it's no beginner's caliber because there's little margin for error. For example, a slight misplacement a bit forward that encounters shoulder bone may result in a lost animal. Quartering shots are likewise not a good idea.

I had good results with both the Speer 70 gr and the Sierra 63 gr bullets. An acquaintance who, sorry to say, does not take game laws seriously uses a Swift and a Hornet to take between 30 and 50 deer/annum in a very overpopulated (with deer!) area of NY. His favorite bullet, for both cartridges, is the old-style 52 gr Speer HP. He's tried about everything out there.

Sam

I have shot literally hundreds of Springbok, Impala, Blesbok with the big 22's...I have also shot or witnessed the shooting of quit a number of Mule Deer with them.

My findings are:
l. they kill very well indeed but sooner or later you will blow up a bullet on the shoulder.

2. The 60 gr. Hornady Soft or H.P. is the best deer bullet on the market, much better than the new controlled expanding monolithics etc. the violent expansion is what makes a 22 work so well, most of the time.

3. They do not leave a good blood trail when they run and that is what I don't like about them or the 6mm...

4. they loose their punch beyond 150 yards and become ineffective as the range increases....

5. The are very good for accurate shot placement and most folks sure do shoot them well, particularly children...

6. They are a poor excuse for a "good" deer rifle but they do work most of the time, if you keep the range short and carefully place your shot from a broadside position only.

Gentlemen,

The .223 is used extensively in Africa for all kinds of game, springbok, blesbok, impala, even kudu sometimes. I have witnessed many one-shot kills of the above mentioned species with a .223, and even taken part in a number of them.

I don't think it's always the best gun, but place your shot correctly and you will have venison for the table. Here in Oregon, they get used quite a lot, since they are are legal for deer. I don't personally use one here, but I know a lot of people who do, and I never hear them complain.

Joel Slate
Slate & Associates, LLC
www.slatesafaris.com

7mm Rem Mag Page www.slatesafaris.com/7mm.htm

Any round chosen should be proportinate to the game being taken. For certian species of deer a 223 should do a very good job, they certianly take out people easily enough. But for larger sized deer it is just inadequate. Personally I consider a 243 to be a little on the light side for Mulies. As mentioned earlier, a 22lr "will work" on deer, but that doesnt make it a wise choice.

Personally for deer there are better calibres, I think it marginal at best, and I would not use it other than for a head shot under a spotlight, if this practice were legal of course.

I don't think anyone said there was a 140 gr. 25 cal. bullet available. I said 140 gr/25 cal, I meant it to read either 140 grains or .25 cal. is what "I preferred". To be honest anyone else can hunt with Cape Buff with BB guns for all I care but the original author asked for "opinions".

I hunt regularly with a 270 by the way, and yes I have settled on the 140 gr. for deer. I do shoot some 130's when hunting smaller animals such as Blackbuck Antelope or varmit shooting. I exclusively use 150's in the .308 and 180's in the '06. For the new 7x57 I have being put together I'm still trying to decide between the 140 gr loads or going to a 160 or 170 gr bullet.

Extensive experience I have not as I mainly hunt in England where they are banned. I have shot roe deer (60lb or so)in Scotland with 222rem and 55gr sierra gameking SP @ 3,100fps and have the following comment to make based on a couple of deer.

It may not be the absolute best but it works well.

I have shot 3 roe bucks 2 of which were pure broadside and one of which was a quartering away shot. All 3 died within 10yards. The quartering away one was shot around the last ribs. The bullet passed through liver, gut, lung, far shoulder (not heavy part of bone) and was recovered as a perfect mushroom of 49gr at the skin.

Not a large sample size but it sure works better than a 243 with 70 or 80gr varmint bullet. It ain't size alone it ain't speed alone it's balance! The 222/223 and 55gr SP is balanced for roe and a lot of fun.