Every time the subject of high fence trophy hunting comes up, it seems that most people raise objections on sporting or ethical. It seems to me that most of these objections are based on the hunter obtaining an “easy” trophy or “buying success”.
Is this any different to a hunter who uses a guide though? Such a hunter, especially if he is willing to spend the $$$$, very often makes his selection on the guides reputation for putting his clients in front trophy class animals. Lets face it, the guides percentage success rate is one of the first things we ask before we book his services. In these situations, is the Client simply paying to pull the trigger and not really partaking in the hunt? The Client certainly does not seem to be “contributing” anything to the hunt in most cases in the way of hunting skills apart from his ability to pull the trigger…So should an animal taken in such circumstances be classed as a true trophy? Or maybe in certain cases such as hunting Mtn Lion with hounds for instance, perhaps the trophy should be attributed to the guide?

Pete: Good point. I have put one animal in the book, and I only put it there for the guide. He wanted his name in there. I won't say I won't put another animal in the book, but if I do it will be taken by me with no assistance from a guide.

I think the bottom line is that people are different, and have different beliefs abotu what is ethical or not.

The case could be made that while on a guided hunt, the client is putting forth alot of effort as well as the guide, the guide serving to direct the client in nfailiar territory.

On the other hand, I saw on TV last week a guided elk hunt in New Mexico where they drove around on farm roads, glassing from the truck, then went to a position, and killed a nice elk.

I don't think the client had to work hard for that one. It was the guides knowledge of the elk herd and the fact that the herd was largely unmolested that made them succesful.

I find too many people seem to know what is best for everyone else.

I don't think there is any doubt that you increase your chances by hiring a guide (obviously assuming he is worth his salt). To some extent, hiring a guide reduces your role to that of "shooter", whereas the guide (predominantly) fulfills the "hunter" role - i.e. does most of the thinking and planning of where, why and how to get an animal. Additionally, a good guide can aid in trophy assessment, if that is relevant. In a word, you are making it easier for yourself by buying in a ton of experience and knowledge, which hunting away from your home turf, you'd have little chance of supplying yourself. Little doubt in my mind, that a successful hunt is more difficult, and perhaps therefore more satisfactory (?), if done on your own.

When all that is said, I also think that you can influence the extent to which having a guide reduces you to "shooter" or "passenger". Taking an active role in the hunt, obviously minimizes the effect. Regardless of how your exact role happens to turn out, as a client you still have to hold up your end of the stick, climb the mountain, endure hardship and finally make that shot. No, you'll likely never move in the guide's territory as well as he does, but then again, if he came to your world he would likely not fulfill your profession as well as you do. Different experts for different jobs.

It would be something if trophies taken on guided hunts would be banned from the record books... I'm not sure either SCI nor the guiding industry would think this would be such a great idea. But then again, to each his own whether somebody finds satisfaction in entering his trophies. I might even consider it myself, if I had a World record...
- mike

There are allot of places where you are required to have a guide and you have little or no choice, Africa for instance. British Columbia, Alaska for some animals.

I don't think you can eliminate guided hunts from the Record Book but you could easily remove High Fence Hunts. How about High Fence hunts with a Guide? How about judging trophies on how little money was spent instead of size?

Pete,

I couldn't agree more. I would much rather hunt a common or garden species at home trail a guide.

High fenced hunts are already disqualified from B&C and P&Y. I think they should just split the records into three catagories: "Professional" where the hunter was guided, "Amateur" where the hunter was not and "Dumb Luck" for the guys like me (if I ever shoot a book animal)!

Tiggergate--I agree with you--there should be different category's. It would not be perfect, however it would be nice.

I do a fair bit of guiding from Montana to Mexico, for the most part I get the client into territory that they could not easily access on their own. And quite often find them game that they would be a bit challenged to find on their own.

Some of these ladies and gents are quite capable and some are not. In many cases the hunters would do just fine once they were put into the proper country. That is one of the things you get with a Outfitter-you get put into the proper country (usually). Could they figure out the right country without the Outfitter maybe yes and maybe no. In many times the Outfitter has some splendid land leased and the client is put into some excellent country that the non guided cannot access. (For example in many cases the non resident guided hunter gets into some excellent private elk country for instance and the resident hunts the public and make no mistake about it there is a difference)

Just some thoughts...

One last thought-in a high fenced situation (and there is many types of this) I feel that the hunter is generally a shooter and not a hunter.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

whatever your choice-get out there and do it as often as you can!

I have been a guide and outfitter for 20 years. I have had hunters that repeatedly get good animals every year. I have also had hunters that repeatedly do not have success. What makes a good outfitter, is good hunters . My job is about 25% of the hunt while the hunter is 75%.I can put you in a area where you have a chance on a good animal, the rest is up to you.

Well said sir!

Thanks for the replies Gents,

This thread is not about preaching rather it was sparked off by my own soul searching on what i want from my hunting in future. I have been out with a "guide" in the past and probably I will do again, and except for a very few instances, i have enjoyed it.

However, I do question that in those cases how much I actually contributed to the success of the hunt. In some instances, especially in the early days, the best I can say is that I did not louse things up!

Can we consider the many of the guided hunts which offer 90% success rates really "sporting" as especially as without the guides knowledge,expirience and hunting skills the hunter might only have say a 50% cahnce of bagging a trophey???

Regards,

Pete

Gentlemen,


I don't know why hunting in one form or another bothers some people.

If you don't like it, don't do it.

Likewise, it is my choice if I want to shoot an animal in a high fence farm.

If we are realistic, how far do we wish to take this "hunting" bit? I bet all of us have a different idea of what it should or should not be.

Would one consider driving along on a concession - fence at all - and seeing an animal by the road. One gets out of the truck, and shoots it.

How about someone hunting on a farm of say even 1000 acres of thick bush. He tracks his animal all day, and never gets a chance of seeing.

Which one of these is classified as hunting?

I have seen both happen.

Hunting on my own is somehow more satisfying to me and yet it is becoming more and more difficult to do. After a considerable investmet in 4x4 trucks, campers and boats I find my opportunities are still limited. Do you want to hunt or not?

Pete...A topic like this usually leads to people defending what they think is right...personally,ethically...whatever.
At least thats what it seems to happen on my short time of being on this site. Its interesting to hear other views...
or opinions in most cases.
Too me its cut and dried. Hunting is hunting...and a guide driving you to a spot to shoot a animal is shooting. I'm not giving guides a bad rap here. You provide a valuable service. A remote sheep or grizzly hunt is my ultimate dream. I would do a drop camp for deer or elk. I have my standards of what I think is hunting. I do not care what others choose to do. Thats their deal...I do not put my values in books I've read. Say maybe... A Hunters Heart...
In Defence of Hunting...Good reading for those doing some soul searching. AGAIN...other peoples opinions or experiances. To some its just a bunch of dribble.
I have a friend who has gone to Africa twice now. He told his PH he did'nt want to shoot his game from the truck. He prefered to hunt them. Too each his own. He says he'll never go on another guided hunt in the U.S. now. He hunted zebra on his last trip. I said, I don't think that would be one of the animals I would pick to hunt and he said...."Try hunting them in the brush". I have added Africa to my list and I don't think if I do the homework I'll be dissappointed. I have hunted hard, always... and if a animal presents himself while I am driving. I will shoot him and I won't feel bad about it. Got OFF the subject a bit there.
I think we all can find a outfitter that can accommodate our needs if we choose to use them. For what I want to do...there is no choise.
.

Sidewinder,

I was talking to a friend who is relatively new to stalking/hunting a few months ago. Before he joined our deer syndicate, he was lucky enough to have hunted in Africa and take amgunst other things a really good Kudu but with the usual high degree of input from the PH..

Then last year, during the rut, he called and shot his first classic 6 point roe buck, not a medal, but a really lovely head. To say he was over the moon was an understatement, and rightfully so...

Anyway, we were chewing the fat in the cabin one evening a few weeks later (probably aided by a drop or two of Irish Whiskey!) and a conversation along the lines of this thread came up..I asked the guy which trophy gave him the most satisfaction?? After some reflection, he said it was the roe buck despite it lacking the drama of being an African hunt...I can can completely understand that too...

I am not against guided hunts at all, I just feel that in some respects, the hunt "loses" something when the guide does all the thinking work...

Regards,

Pete

I could'nt agree with you more Pete. I have only used guides twice. 1980, and 81 I believe. Two moose trips in Alberta. Again...a requirement. The guides were relatives of the inlaws. They were a blast to hunt with and I had my run of the place. Costs were 400.00 U.S in 80 and 600.00 in 81. A gift at current prices. I could have continued to go but, I could'nt give up any of the deer,elk, and bird hunting I was doing at home. Plus I did'nt need any more meat. I've been lucky enough to blunder into a animal or two closer to home.
I have heard similer stories like what happed to your friend and worse. I can't speak for the guide your friend had but, I might be able to make a few excuses for him... After all. His job is to put you on game and he might know what he's doing...Just some people lack socialization skills. He might be a total %^&* too. I don't know? Its something I hope to avoid. Whatever outfitter I choose will come recommended from someone I know or have had some conversations with. I don't have near the experiance with guides others have on here. I just know I love to hunt, fish, and shoot and it would take a real asshole to ruin my trip. I will be able to share my experiences in the next few years....I have way too much time on my hands these days.

GOOD HUNTING
Dave

A friend went to Canada last fall for deer. At that location each of a group of three or four hunters shared one guide. The terrain was mostly wooded. On opening day my friend, who is an outstanding whitetail hunter, shot a very nice buck after being dropped off on his own.

Then when it was time for the guide to hunt with him the guide went in front of my friend as they hunted. This makes zero sense to me and to my friend as snap shooting was the norm. The guide however was personable, knowlegeable and energetic. One other in that party did not get along with the guide so that can happen. From what I gather I would take the guides side on it.

The bottom line was that he spent $3000 for deer hunting. We can hunt deer here for less than $100 and not have to deal with a guide.

Again, if one has not done it before or it's required then just like the high prices at a convience store it goes with the territory.