I purchased a Rem 700 on Guns America from Kieth Woods of B-T Firearms in San Angelo, TX that supposedly had "very nice metal, was well cared for, etc." but was actually in poor condition. The SS gun had rust/pitting on the barrel and bolt and the but pad looked like it had been melted or painted with Rustoleum at one time. Please send me a PM if your in this area and stay away from Keith Woods and B-T Firearms. Thanks.

[ 01-13-2003, 01:09: Message edited by: Nebraska ]

Taking my lead from Jack Belk over at HA where you posted this.

"What did they say on the phone about this?"

I looked at his ads and I see that he has a 3-day inspection period on his guns. What did he say when you called him? Exactly how did he handle the problem when confronted with it?

Bob

My intent isn't to slander the guy, just resolve this. I will post the outcome, good or bad.

Here's more background:

To his credit:

I ordered a SS Rem 700 in 25-06 from him this Summer. Everything went fine. Delivered a little late(said he had the trigger inspected by his local smith) but arrived none the less and I was very pleased with the gun. Everything was as promised. If he were a total shiester, I think he probably would've burned me the first time.

This time:

The description on Guns America- "REMINGTON 700 ADL STAINLESS 7MAG. With Black synthetic Factory stock. Has a 24" Barrel and Leupold mounts and rings. Metal is very nice with some lite scratches in stock. Excellent bore. One owner gun and well cared for. SalesTax for TX.residents. ShippingExtra. 3 day insepction."

My desctiption - barrel and bolt have rust/pitting and the butt-pad looks like it has been melted or chewed up and painted at one time with Rustoleum. The metal is not "very nice", it's poor and the gun obviously wasn't well cared-for as stainless is much more resistant to rust than bluing. The stock has scratches but I knew that before ordering.

I called Keith on numeous occasions regarding pricing and the condition of this gun. When I finally decided to buy the gun, I dropped a money order in the mail the next day so he would have his $$ ASAP. That's the way I do business and can be verified by Rick Bin. I sent a copy of my dealer's FFL over a week later. I made several calls and sent e-mail letting him know when I sent what and asking for the trackng number. He never gave me the number or the scheduled delivery day so I just waited for the gun to show up. As I was picking up two other guns from my dealer already and he works a day job and I work nights, I made arrangements to pick them all up on Saturday. The gun finally showed up at the dealer's address on Mon/Tues. and I picked it up on Saturday. I knew the moment I saw it that I was going to send it back. I called him within 1 hour of picking it up to let him know. I also e-mailed him when I got home.

Here's the latest exchange:

Keith,

I just re-read your reply. The condition of this gun is poor. Stainless guns do rust if they are neglected. You'll see for yourself when you open the box. Stainless guns are more rust-resistant but they are in no way "rust-proof". Not only did I not "over-extend" myself, I'm was planning on using this gun for the action on a custom 257 Wby, a process that will be costing me more than 3x the price of this gun.

When I ordered the SS 25-06 this summer, it arrived over a week after it was supposed to get here. You said that you had to have the trigger checked by your smith, which caused the delay. I didn't give you any hassles about the late delivery. I also expected the 7Mag earlier than it arrived but with the second FFL arriving late and the first gun I ordered from you arriving late, I wasn't concerned. I did, however, request the tracking number from you on two occasions and the only response was that the gun was coming. Without a definite day to schedule an appointment, and the gun arriving later than expected, I made my appointment to meet him for Saturday to ensure that the gun had arrived. If I had an exact time/day, I might have been able to pick it up on my lunch hour during the week but you didn't give me that option.

I have a friend from San Angelo who said that he has never heard of B-T Firearms. I hope you are a reputable dealer. If so, think your integrity would be worth more than $61.50. Not only that, but after reading more on GA, they would recommend that you even ate the shipping. I'll pay the shipping to get this over with but my inspection period started when I picked up the gun. I didn't use 3 days, I used an hour. I paid you right away out of courtesy and in the spirit of good business. I hope you share the same spirit and that this is all a misunderstanding.

Please send me the address for return shipping. Thank you.

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff [SMTP:nebraska01@cox.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 12:33 PM
To: 'Keith Woods'
Subject: RE: 700 ADL Stainless 7mag

Keith,

I hope you are a man of integrity. If you recall, I mailed you the money order for that gun right away; well before I even had a chance to mail the copy of the FFL. I did that so you would have your money ASAP. That's the way I do business. I called numerous times to get tracking number for that gun so I could schedule a time to pick it up. You never supplied that number. The earliest I could meet with my dealer was on Saturday, and I did, as he is only available on the weekends. I met with him yesterday, filled out the 4473 and notified you yesterday. I had the gun in my possession of less than an hour before I made the call. I still have the page in my Favorites and here's the quote "REMINGTON 700 ADL STAINLESS 7MAG. With Black synthetic Factory stock. Has a 24" Barrel and Leupold mounts and rings. Metal is very nice with some lite scratches in stock. Excellent bore. One owner gun and well cared for. SalesTax for TX.residents. ShippingExtra. 3 day insepction." I took the gun into possession yesterday. The metal is not even close to "very nice" and the gun obviouly wasn't "well cared for". I can fax you the 4473 so you can see when I picked the gun up. A restocking fee would be nothing short of unethical, especially considering how much effort I've put forth to make this transaction go well.
Thanks.
Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Woods [SMTP:gunco50@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 9:21 PM
To: nebraska01@cox.net
Subject: 700 ADL Stainless 7mag

RE: Item on GunsAmerica

Jeff,

You should have received this gun on Tuesday at the latest as we shipped Dec. 30 via UPS. That would have given it more than sufficient to have arrived by Tuesday. Surprised to hear from you today as there is no UPS on Saturday. I will check with UPS you may be over your inspection period. However, you may return the gun and I will charge a 15% restocking fee if you have you went over your 3 day inspection. Go back and check the ad, it never said that metal was in excellent condition...it states metal is very nice. This is a stainless gun and they do not rust, yet you mention rust/pitting. If you actually overextended yourself just say that, don't blame the condition of the gun. Will check with UPS on Monday to determine if you are over the limit. But, go ahead and return gun. Keith W.

Keith W. sounds like a sleazy operator to me.

Nebraska,
According to his description of the rifle, I would have been just as disappointed as you. I hope he does the right thing, even if doing so involves overlooking strict adherence to the 3 Day inspection period. You are not only a customer but a repeat customer and it would be bad business to alienate you for the few bucks he stands to make on one item. Hope it all turns out well, in the end.

Rule #1 of retail sales: The customer is always right. Rule #2: When the customer is wrong: See above.

I refuse to do business with anyone...ANYONE...who doesn't follow the above. I make sure I follow the same practice in my personal business.

However, I retain the right to fire any customer who is abusive to myself or my people. Or refuse to do business with someone who will systematically abuse my #1 rule as a means to unfair personal enrichment. I will/do put up with a lot from my customers...but I will not suffer abusers or cheats.

I've bought from BT and never had a problem, so I hope that your problem can be successfully resolved.

It seems that the issue here is whether you exceeded your 3-day inspection period. It would seem only reasonable that the 3-day period would start when the customer has had a reasonable opportunity to have actual access to the merchandise. Assuming that you did not have that opportunity until "Saturday", and assuming you informed the seller immediately that you were not satisfied with the condition of the merchandise, then it would seem fair that he would accept its return, shipping prepaid by you, and give a full refund. It would not appear fair to charge a "restocking fee" if you made your intent to return the merchandise clear as soon as you had a chance to inspect it, even if your dealer had had it in hand for several days. On the other hand, it is not fair to the seller to hold merchandise for an extended period, then expect a full refund.

At any rate, I hope that you guys get it worked out to your mutual satisfaction, since every deal reflects on the entire shooting fraternity.

Part of the problem with the 3 days inspection rule here is that the seller made himself unavailable by both phone and email until after the 3 days was well past.

Convenient for the seller, of course.

The dealer who received my rifle works an 8-5 job and does gun shows when time permits. Since he works days and I work nights, the earliest I was able to pick the gun was Saturday. He makes the hours, not me.

I called Keith on my cell phone Saturday, while sitting in the dealer's driveway. I don't think 30 minutes is too much to ask for an inspection period. He tried saying that the inspection period started when the dealer received the gun. To me, that's bad customer service and indicates that he knows what he's trying to peddle won't fetch what I just paid.

He can do or say whatever he wants now. I could care less. It's a matter of priciple. He could keep the entire money order and the gun for all I care. He's lost my business for good.

Just a thought, but if you would send a PM to everyone here who requests his phone number then we could call him and let him know (in a nice way, not being @55holes) that we too would not be doing any business with him.

Maybe after he gets a couple of hundred phone calls he will have an attitude adjustment on this issue.

Send me a PM, I'll inform this gentleman? that I will not be buying from him in the future.

Any new news?

I just tracked the gun and it looks like he should be receiving it as early as tomorrow. If it were me, the MO would go out the same day but I won't hold my breath. I should know more within a week.

I'll post the outcome, with his contact info, after this is resolved as I'm curious to see how he's going to handle this as it stands right now. If he does the right thing, I'll chalk it up to misunderstanding/bad judgement, if not, he's a bad businessman IMHO. Either way, I've learned my lesson the first time around.