There are many people asking me how the preference point system works. I tell them but it is too much to really understand in the 30 seconds people want to listen about it. In this article I try to explain it not by the numbers but by the philosophy.

The first thing you have to know is that if you do not apply you cannot draw.
The second thing to know is that some tags are hard to draw. Some are easy and there are many in between.
The third thing to know is that sometimes it is luck if you draw or not.
The last key thing to know is you can draw without luck. You have to earn it. You earn it by years of applying or applying where the tags are easy to get.

Some tags you do not need to draw. Usually these tags are not as good as the draw tags or are all on private land or have some other unique factor.

The stories are always told that go like this. I have been putting in for 15 years and I have never drawn. I know a guy who has drawn that same tag 3 times. Well that is the luck part.

In most cases i only draw the tags by earning them. If you go by the numbers I would have drawn way more tags than I have. I give an example. I put in for a great deer ares in Colorado. My son and I thought we had enough points to draw. The rules in colorado are if you have the most points you draw. And the only luck part of it is those who have the most points get thrown into a hat and you are drawn if there are not enough tags to give to everyone who has the most points. We did not draw. And I looked on Colorado’s website and it said that there was some who drew with less points than we had. I said he wait a minute and called them because I knew the rule. If you have the points you will draw. Well there was 23 tags left for those with the points we had. There were 24 people who put in. I put in as a group with my son and we had to be the last name drawn out and since we wanted 2 tags they said we do not have 2 tags and gave the tag to a person with 1 less point than we had. I call that luck. Luck that we did not draw.

Make your best plan on where you want to hunt and start applying. Sometimes they add more tags to a place you are applying and you can get the tag sooner.

The key thing is you have to apply. If you are lucky you might draw sooner than others. If you are unlucky then keep applying and someday you should get some good tags.

There are places where you can just buy tags. Often the success rates are lower but you get to go hunting.

It does not hurt to apply for some really hard to draw tags because someone has to draw.

Make sure you do not miss applying. i wrote the PointHunter app to remind me to apply and to keep track of my preference points. Because I consistently put in I should draw a fantastic tag every year. But it took me quite a few years to get to this place.

I do not know how to tell people to have luck. I do know that I will apply in case someday I get some luck.

I tried putting in a picture here of an elk my nephew drew with all luck and not even close to max points in Utah.

You are correct you must apply in order to draw a premium tag.
I've been "lucky" or diligent and have drawn some good tags however I've not had any luck drawing Colorado Desert Sheep or Moose.I've been applying for Deserts for 19 years and Moose since 1986. In the early days Moose had no preference points but I applied every year, then they decided to give preference points and when we got to 3 points that was the cap you just kept applying with 3 and never receiving more than that 3rd point. We did that for a few years then they said "new plan" and started adding "weighted" points.
I'm now at 3 preference points and 14 weighted points for Moose and still applying, I need some luck!

There are many different points systems out there. True preference, squared, 50/50 bonus, 75/25 splits, and luck of the draw distribution. Unless a permit is able to be drawn within 10 or so years there is no way a preference point system works in the long run. If it takes more than 20 or so years to draw then the 50/50 or 75/25 systems will not work in the long run.

If you are a non-resident and are starting to put in, only wanting to hunt the best units in a "Point" system state then you should save your money. Do you want to spend $100 every year to apply for Sheep in Wyoming, hoping for a random tag-- at a .2% chance of drawing? Or $50 year for a Henry Mtns deer tag in Utah with a .01% chance of drawing? Or you want a unit 44 4th CO deer tag-- never gonna happen. Save your money and buy a hunt somewhere and go hunt.

There are always some lucky dudes that people refer to which allows states to justify their point systems-- thus keeping people in the point-purchasing loop. Some States are selling points more than tags. So many guys think that if a unit takes 8 points this year, then when they finally have 8 points they can draw. The reality is the tag might take 14 when they finally get 8. Educate yourself on the actual odds before applying.

So of course, if you don't apply you can't draw. But the reality of the situation is that if you are years behind in points and do apply you won't draw-- ever.

Also, bear in mind the game can change at any time. Look at Wyoming discussing the change of non-resident allocations from 75-25 to 90-10. What will a permit cost in 30 years?

I do like the idea of "GotmyTag's" app and it works. I just feel it is a waste of cash and time to be apply for hard to draw permits which cost high dollars in application fees. Use those fees and that time to go hunt this year or the next.

There are a lot of people selling point systems on the internet. You are not the first.

Wyoming switched froms omething like $15 to something like $100 for sheep, and I quit apply for about ten years. Now I have some points, but I have done the math and unless I move back to Wyoming it is worthless to keep sending the state $100 per year for sheep. The math never works out.

My father has the opposite problem, he has the max points for sheep, and isn't in good enough health to hunt sheep. So what can he do? He keeps applying hoping that someday he will be healthy enough to hunt sheep.

We have a broken system. It is time to get rid of points and start over. At current point creep we will lose the young hunters forever.

Hopefully I can get a job in Wyoming at the end of the year and we can move back. Then I might have a chance.

I find it absolutely hilarious that a person living in Utah would make that opening post! I wonder if he's also a SFW member, LOL!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
We have a broken system. It is time to get rid of points and start over. At current point creep we will lose the young hunters forever.
QUOTE]

I will apologize in advance but the above statement is spoken like a true quitter. This is exactly what is wrong with our culture today. People do not want to put in the due diligence and effort but they still want the benefits.
Colorado succumbed to this a few years ago, people that drew tags every year and got to hunt year after year suddenly realized that they will never get to hunt the top tier units if they didn't save up their points and if they started now they would be years behind the people who had been saving their points so they complained and Colorado implemented the "hybrid" system where a certain amount of tags in premium units are now awarded to people who don't have enough points to actually draw a tag in that unit.
How fair is that to people who have saved their points for years trying to stay up with point creep and for the past 20 years have tried to figure out how to get a hunt at all each fall without burning those points.
" I want, gimme, gimme " the chant of the spoiled in America.

Moved to Colorado one month after my 51st birthday. Before that the closest I thought I'd ever get to an elk hunt was the cover of Field and Stream. I'll never live long enough to draw a Bull Moose/Bighorn Ram tag. Chances are even if I do, I'll be in my 70's and too broken up to enjoy the hunt.

I don't know the answer, but I don't think draw tags are it. I don't know that a pure lottery is either. I do know these systems aren't satisfying anyone.

Before I came out here, I'd never heard of a license system that requires that you send in your money, the state sits on it, and maybe you'll draw and maybe you won't. Some states require you purchase a license and tough nugies if you don't draw. What a money making racket this has become, and that's really the bottom line. Its got nothing to do with gimme gimme.

We are in a mess with regards to a "Points" system. And I am speaking from Utah. There are other states that I apply for that are in a similar mess.

I am willing to wait my turn and I realize that given the current system, that is the reality. However, in hind-site, I would prefer a random draw and let the chips fall where they may.

Now, before anyone gets too uptight about my suggestion, I say this while sitting on max points for deer and elk (in another state).

I am afraid that we have passed the point of no return!

We have a true preference for our draw tags the more points you have the better chance you have.

As you are only competing with those with the same number or those that have more.

But the draw system in making out of state hunting a rich mans game.

Even making some instate draws a PITA.

All over the country the game departments are complaining about the loss of hunters.

The harder and harder that they make getting a lic and to go hunting the more and more people well just give up.

Snellstrom I hope you and I are not putting in for the same moose area...I also have three preference points, and 14 weighted

My main problem with many of the States, that I think is complete BS, is often being forced to buy a bogus Non Resident license to apply when you have ZERO chance to draw and thus zero chance or need for a license.
I prefer the system like WY does where you can simply buy the points at a reasonable price.
Some of the States are drawing unethical fees by holding a proverbial gun to non Residents heads ( not even getting into the float they are earning on interest by holding people's money during the months before the draw)
I dont mind waiting my turn, i dont mind points, but charging false fees crosses an ethical line in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
We have a broken system. It is time to get rid of points and start over. At current point creep we will lose the young hunters forever.
QUOTE]

I will apologize in advance but the above statement is spoken like a true quitter. This is exactly what is wrong with our culture today. People do not want to put in the due diligence and effort but they still want the benefits.
Colorado succumbed to this a few years ago, people that drew tags every year and got to hunt year after year suddenly realized that they will never get to hunt the top tier units if they didn't save up their points and if they started now they would be years behind the people who had been saving their points so they complained and Colorado implemented the "hybrid" system where a certain amount of tags in premium units are now awarded to people who don't have enough points to actually draw a tag in that unit.
How fair is that to people who have saved their points for years trying to stay up with point creep and for the past 20 years have tried to figure out how to get a hunt at all each fall without burning those points.
" I want, gimme, gimme " the chant of the spoiled in America.

First off you need to adjust your reading glasses, I never said anything about how I deserve a tag.!

I am a 20 year veteran with 9 combat tours in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo and Somalia, I served this nation for 20 years. I currently work full time while going to college full time. I make good money and now realize that I should have kept trying to figure out a way to send the state of Wyoming the money I didn't have when they bumped the price of points. A few years ago before I retired I bought back into it thinking I would eventually get a sheep tag and now I realize that won't happen so I am done donating my $100 bills to the state of Wyoming.

Not sure if you are sturing the pot to be a jerk or what, but I specifically said that the current systems sucks for hunter recruitment.

I am done with points all together, I'll save and pay for hunts I can afford. I have 4 Wyoming antelope points I am cashing in this year, and I am going to Africa next year. If I want to hunt I'll hunt Canada and if we move back to Wyoming I might apply, but I am done. It doesn't make sense to play the game if you aren't 20 years old or have tons of points. I am not either one of those so I am done.

Einstein said that stupidity or lunacy was doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the same result. Go ahead and play that game, good luck to you. It's obviously a wise investment.

Here is some math for you Snelstrom. Points in Wyoming, Arizona, Nevada, and Utah for sheep, moose, goats, antelope, elk, deer and the licenses is about $1000 per year, times how many years till you draw a tag? Doesn't take many years before you are paying for a hunt in Canada.

Done!

Tons of guided antelope hunts in New Mexico and Texas for $2500-3750. Blackbear hunts in Canada for $3500. Moose hunts in BC and Newfie for $6500.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:


Here is some math for you Snelstrom. Points in Wyoming, Arizona, Nevada, and Utah for sheep, moose, goats, antelope, elk, deer and the licenses is about $1000 per year, times how many years till you draw a tag? Doesn't take many years before you are paying for a hunt in Canada.

Done!

Tons of guided antelope hunts in New Mexico and Texas for $2500-3750. Blackbear hunts in Canada for $3500. Moose hunts in BC and Newfie for $6500.

I don't spend quite that much applying in the 5 states in which I apply. I figure that anything less than $1k out of my pocket each year won't be missed. I am nearly 40 years old but I figure that, assuming my health holds up, when I reach retirement age I should be able to pull some good tags each year.

Paying for the tags or doing guided hunts works but some of us want to play the point game in hopes that we can make some great DIY hunts.

quote:

Originally posted by Poyntman:
States are drawing unethical fees by holding a proverbial gun to non Residents heads ( not even getting into the float they are earning on interest by holding people's money during the months before the draw )

Can someone please enlighten me: How are the states making money(from interest) on the tag fees they are holding for 4(+-) months before the draw.

I would guess they might make 1% for the 1/3 of a year that they hold the fees but it would seem that that would be offset by the credit card fees that they are charged.

What am I missing?

By only sending you a partial refund: Colorado refunds you $40 short (the preference point fee) per species, unless you bought a hunting license the previous year. If you're applying for multiple species you can come out ahead by buying the license even if you aren't hunting CO that year. You're still paying to accumulate points.

WY lets you just pay the fee - I pay $120 a year for deer, elk, and antelope. Not sure if it's even worth it with how many points I have, how many people are in front of me, and how point creep is going to turn out over the next 5-10 years.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Poyntman:
States are drawing unethical fees by holding a proverbial gun to non Residents heads ( not even getting into the float they are earning on interest by holding people's money during the months before the draw )

Can someone please enlighten me: How are the states making money(from interest) on the tag fees they are holding for 4(+-) months before the draw.

I would guess they might make 1% for the 1/3 of a year that they hold the fees but it would seem that that would be offset by the credit card fees that they are charged.

What am I missing?

Even if they only made 1% that would be a decent amount of money when they take in millions of dollars well ahead of a draw. I've even heard some people say that various states aren't even allowed to draw interest on that money, but I've never looked into that angle as I really don't care one way or the other. If they can, good for them to help their budgets that always have a problem. As far as credit card charges, they aren't losing a dime on that since the consumer is paying for that fee either upfront or with a higher built in fee that will cover it. As an example, Wyoming charges a NR a $14 application fee and considering that everything now is done by computer I would imagine a good share of that is profit after things like you are mentioning are taken into account.

JBrown:
Every CFO of every decent sized Corp in the world holds cash flow in a sweep account and makes every penny of interest they can...
It adds up...
These States out West no doubt hold all our money and likely invest it in short term investment vehicles to earn what they can..
How much do we think the 1,000's of people x $1,000's of dollars add up to? Its millions...
The entire reason they require us all to front that dead money (no chance to draw and no need for a penny till you do draw because you have nothing to pay for till you do) is so they can put our cash to work for them in between.

Personally, I like the CO system but then I kind of fall into a category all by myself. I spent a little over 25 years in the military and knew I would not get back to my native CO every year to hunt. So I always put in for preference points for everything. As a resident member of the military I paid the nominal $3 per point and when they went to higher $$$ for them, they waived resident military members so I didn't have to pay them. I built a huge # of points this way.

I submitted my resident fees and they refunded it after the point draw. Along the way I drew a few coveted tags, like MT Goat and sheep, when I knew I could get back since I had a bank of points. I retired last year and cashed in my antelope points. I still have a huge # of elk, deer, bear and moose points. This year I put in for the deer and points for the rest to keep them building. I can hunt one of the primary animals every one of the next few seasons (moose is the only one questionable) because I have the points in the bank. For me, the CO system worked really well.

I'm playing the points game in Colorado, Oklahoma, Wyoming, Utah, and Nevada at the moment. I used to put for New Mexico until they changed their tag allocation for DIY hunters a couple years ago basically giving the DIY guy no chance of drawing a decent unit. I did Idaho for a couple years, but that $150 nonresident license was a tough pill to swallow with not much chance of drawing. At least I feel like I'm getting something for my money when I can bank some points.

I haven't hit the 40 year old mark, yet but it'll be here in a couple months. With this in mind, I'm sitting in anywhere from 5-10 points for the various species in each state. I'll continue to build points for another 10 years before I truly get serious about spending them. The only exception are the once in a lifetime trophy hunts, which I'll apply for a good unit with the expectation that I'm still just building points. Yet, I know there is still a very slim chance of drawing one of those coveted tags. For the common species, I'm just point building until I'm ready to cash those points in.

While building these points, I have plenty of other hunts I can still participate in like Texas exotics, Africa, Australia, South America, etc. All this with knowing I'm likely in a much better place financially than the average Joe who may not have the extra funds to spend on additional hunts while waiting to draw that dream tag.

Perhaps those that play the points, something to think about, by the time you draw you'll be much older and won't be healthy enough anymore to even make the hunt?

Everyone just has play the game they want, if it's points more power to you. I'll just keep the money instead of paying for points and just book the hunts I want. You win some, you lose some. Kinda like playing the lottery.

I enjoy application season. I think some states have better systems than others, but if you apply in most of the western states it makes a good mix. I personally do not mind fronting the fees, or buying the license to apply, it makes for better odds in the end. Also keeps some of the anti's out of the application game. Imagine if it only cost $5 to apply? What would the odds be then?

I book hunts I want, then sprinkle in the chance of maybe drawing something as well. You can do both right? Plus application season is fun, researching, applying, checking results. Its worth the few hundred bucks for me.

The one thing that does piss me off, is the amount of time it takes for the drawing to happen and results posted. The drawing should happen within 1 week after the deadline closes, and results posted immediately afterwards (CA is somehow ahead of the game in this regard). Tags/Refunds sent asap after that. Most everything is done by computer and automated. No need for it to take months to do the damn drawing.

Oh and why the hell is Colorado the last state to have to send in a check for sheep and goat? yet they take credit card for elk and deer????

quote:

quote:Originally posted by Snellstrom:[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:We have a broken system. It is time to get rid of points and start over. At current point creep we will lose the young hunters forever.QUOTE]

By "getting rid of points and starting over" what do you hope to accomplish? The thousands of hunters who have, in some cases, 20 plus years invested will be disenfranchised. All to appease people who are new to the draw system and want instant results.
I don't think the current system is working but I don't see a fix that doesn't completely shit on people who have made great efforts to try to draw top tier tags.
In Colorado once you have 3 points for Sheep, Goats, Moose you have a chance at drawing a tag. I see it year after year that people with far less weighted points than I are drawing tags.
Not just pointing this out to be a "jerk" but I have a legitimate concern that participants that have years of dedication to the tag "system" will be over looked by the DOW if people with your opinion have your way. That's all I was trying to point out, if you have a better system lets hear it but it's easy for someone to say "it's broken lets start over" when you have no points at risk.

And really if you want to talk about being a "jerk" we could get into your rude PM to me running down a rifle I had for sale. I think even you thought it was over the top because you deleted the PM. Don't play angel with me.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snellstrom:
All to appease people who are new to the draw system and want instant results.
/QUOTE]

The problem is we are talking about tags which can not be drawn in lifetimes. It isn't to appease someone who wants it now, but to give them a chance at some point in their lives.

The point systems are created at arbitrary moments in time, which are taken advantage of by those who eligible at that moment in time. Those coming after find they are in an insurmountable position to gain top level.

Look at Utah where a moose tag can have odds of 1 in 200+ or more. 50% of the permits are offered to those with the most points-- meaning those who applied within the first 5 years are assured a permit, while those coming after are just hoping to draw with .5% odds. 23 years into the point game and people still are left sitting with 20+ points for elk, deer, moose, sheep...

WY, CO, AZ are all facing point creep, meaning those with less points may never catch up to draw levels for many permits. So many guys say they deserve the permit because they have waited-- and they will draw, yet those coming after will never draw the same permit under many of the current point trends.

I like NV's squared point system or CO's weighted points. Better might be Idaho's No Point system. Waiting periods are good too.

MC
I completely understand what you are saying but how do we "fix" it and treat everyone fairly?

I truly feel like I got shafted in Colorado on Moose, I applied many years (starting 1986) with a no point system. Then after many years they offered points the drawing pool tripled or quadrupled. When we reached a 3 point max we stalled there for several years while people a few years late getting into the draw caught up to our 3 point holding pattern, then they started the "weighted" points. I've been in the Moose draw for 29 years but people who got in 17 years ago have the same points as I do and anyone who has been in 3 years or greater has a shot at a tag.
Hardly seems fair but I know no way to fix it so I will ride out the current system.
One year I thought Colorado was on track to a fair way to reduce point creep. They offered for one year an opportunity to cash in part of your points to draw a tag. An example would be that if you had 18 points and were holding out for unit 201 Elk you could apply for unit 61 that took 9 points and you could draw that tag and have points left in the bank. However no mention of it in following years.
That would have been a great way in about 5 years time to level the playing field, fairly to all participants.

You have all quite correctly layed out the reasons that Idaho has avoided a preference point system. Good on IDF&G!

465H&H

Some of you guys talk as though with a different tag draw system something would magically happen and the odds would suddenly improve.

This is NOT SO! Get over it. There are just some tags which a guy will NOT draw in many lifetime regardless of the tag dispensing system. There's too much demand on the very limited resource.

It's simple, apply and hope for the best or don't apply and sit home.

The worst thing to do is start changing the game to give the mere appearance of helping increase odds.

If you State has a points system, keep them. If your State doesn't, keep it that way too!
Zeke

I agree
Idaho, everyone gets one chance, everything else is wishy washy make you feel better
Every year, there is more hunters applying for same amount of tags.
I just apply every year and don't worry about it, then I hunt deer, elk, antelope ...

My parents live in Wyoming, my dad said he had heard what others have said here that Wyoming is considering dropping the non-resident allocation to 10%.

I think they should do it. I think every state should do the same thing, if they can afford it. States like Arizona and Utah don't really care about non-reisdents anyway they should follow the New Mexico model.

I don't really care what I draw for tags, I just want to go hunting and not pay for the chance to hunt, so that is what I am going to do.

If a tag comes in a draw from Wyoming, Nevada or Arizona I'll be happy when it comes. If it doesn't I'll pay to hunt someplace else. I have some health problems and I should have spent my youth trying to get in more hunts instead of volunteering to spend almost 5 years in the war zone.

I guess like everyone else I thought the resource wouldn't ever dry up.

Not crying about it, just done being a pawn for the G&F folks.

Here is the Wyoming article on their lawmakers seeking a point change.

I think it is a great idea.

http://trib.com/news/state-and...bf-5a0def0f7a45.html

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
Here is the Wyoming article on their lawmakers seeking a point change.

I think it is a great idea.

http://trib.com/news/state-and...bf-5a0def0f7a45.html

You're a day late and a dollar short and might be best to keep your views in Californication if you don't hunt in Wyoming. The Bill to drop NR tag allocations for the four species to 10% didn't even make it out of the Committee hearings. The other Bill to change the NR 60/40 regular/special tag allocation to 40/60 for deer, antelope, and elk also was defeated. If the cut to 10% had been passed a lot of older guys that are now close to drawing a tag would have been screwed, so shame on you as a NR to have that attitude! What you do in CA is one thing, but the way CA is so screwed up why should anyone listen to a resident there!!!

I am a Wyoming native. I did 20 years in the military and the majority of my life before I joined the military was spent in Wyoming.

No state owes anyone a tag. I believe they owe the residents a much greater shot than non-residents.

My uncle (another Wyoming native, and lifelong Wyomingite) drew a tag last year. Didn't see a shooter in 30 days of hunting them on Union Pass.

I live in California, but I have only lived in California for 7 months, as soon as I can get a job that will support my family in Wyoming we are moving back.

I have just as much of a right to want a better change in Wyoming as anyone else.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
I am a Wyoming native. I did 20 years in the military and the majority of my life before I joined the military was spent in Wyoming.

No state owes anyone a tag. I believe they owe the residents a much greater shot than non-residents.

My uncle (another Wyoming native, and lifelong Wyomingite) drew a tag last year. Didn't see a shooter in 30 days of hunting them on Union Pass.

I live in California, but I have only lived in California for 7 months, as soon as I can get a job that will support my family in Wyoming we are moving back.

I have just as much of a right to want a better change in Wyoming as anyone else.

That's great and thanks for your service! However, I did my time too and service time has nothing to do with this thread! I didn't say any state "owes" anyone a tag and I don't disagree that residents should get a "greater shot than NRs" as you put it. The problem with your philosophy is that change isn't good for everyone that's already vested in the system with a lot of money and time. Now knowing that you want to move back and be a resident of Wyoming it's very obvious why you want what you feel is a "better change". FYI the Wyoming G&F receives 55% of its operating budget from licenses/fees etc. and 80% of that money is from NRs! Until such time as the residents of Wyoming pony up just a tad more of their own money to run THEIR G&F Department, I would suggest that they should be very happy with the draw systems that are in place and they should stay that way until the residents pay their fair share of costs to run the Dept. If it wasn't for the NRs absorbing the costs of most G&F Depts. in the west the resident hunters would be in deep shit, but yet you're just like most who want more for less in this "me me me" entitlement society now in existence in our country!