Guys,

I went hunting on a hill country Texas lease in late February. They had extra tickets granted by the authorities for white tail does and spikes. I was actually hunting hogs and was successful.

The question I have for you all is based on the reasoning used for hunting spikes. Seems that the game biologists there have some evidence that "Once a spike, always a spike." That is, true spikes seldom develop into animals having branched racks. Their statistics indicate that 80% or more of first year spikes end up being spikes throughout their lives.

Anyone have any additional information? Is this the genetic pattern of a local population, or is it a common genetic pattern amongst all white tails?

Thanks,

I don't belive it.But I don't believe in big foot either.

Depends, are you talking about a 8 mounth old spike, or a 3 1/2 year old spike?
IIRC, a U of Neb study found that the average point count for a year and a half old deer was 7 3/4 points.

You'll find this enlightening: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/conserve/wildlife_management/hillcountry/deer/genetics.phtml

And, no, spikes are not that way for life. Inferior, maybe, but not spikes for life.

RSY

Now that makes a whole lot more sense!

Interesting how the story changes when you run it serially through a few hunters.

I still wonder if there is any reason to believe this is a pattern that goes beyond the hill country genetic population. Might well help me make a decision about shooting spikes for the freezer.

For me, it depends on what percentage of my buck population is spikes. If every other buck I see is a spike, I am going to actively pare down their numbers.

The flipside is, if it's been a dry summer and the deer appears to be a yearling, I'll probably let it walk for another year. If the next year rolls along and he's still looking spikey, down he goes.

A rule of thumb used by some folks I know is the deer gets shot if their spikes are longer than their ears, period. Probably would give similar results to my method.

One thing to keep in mind, though, is to make sure you don't forget about maintaining your buck:doe ratio while focusing on the whole spike issue. I think this ratio is much more important.

Best of luck,
RSY

If you can obviously tell the deer is older than a year then he might very well be a spike all his life. I don't believe "Once a spike, always a spike" holds much water as the web link clearly demonstrates.

Where I hunted in the northern forest of Wisconsin, spikes were very common, and they were always 1 1/2 year old bucks. Don't remember ever seeing one that was older than that. This is an area where there is no agriculture, and the winters are harsh. Where I hunt now, in SW Wisconsin, I see a few forks, but most are 1 1/2 year old six and small eight points. I think it has more to do with the harshness of their surroundings and the available food (coupled with population density and sustainable limits I suppose).

In my present area, there is a good age class of 2 1/2 and over deer, and I haven't seen a spike among them yet, much less a scrawny fork horn. Just give them a few years to grow, and they will. I suppose if you can actually manage for the cream of the crop they might be the ones to shoot off though. I'd rather see them the following year or two just to make sure!

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
Anyone have any additional information? Is this the genetic pattern of a local population, or is it a common genetic pattern amongst all white tails?...

Didn't bother to read the link, because the answer is obvious to folks who breed and raise Livestock of all kinds for a living. If you want excellent well bred cattle, hogs, horses, or anything else for that matter, including Deer, you do not achieve it with inferior breeding stock.

The one thing that causes me to hesitate on saying this is an iron-clad fact, is the forage available for the Deer. If the forage is of a low nutrient content, the herd can have 1.5 year old Spikes that can(but may not) eventually mature into decent, but not exceptional Deer.

If on the other hand your specific Deer herd is in an area where the forage has a high nutrient content, then the 1.5 year old Bucks should be wearing small basket racks of 6, 7, or 8 points. When we see Spikes on land in the Carolinas that I have access to, they are culled as quickly as possible.

Any Spike in our area has the potential to spred his genetics to multiple Doe, so we do our best to stop it before it starts.

Now, having said what "we do" does not mean it should apply to all parts of the country. Each area is different and the decision should be made considering the available forage as well as considering input from the local Game Specialists.

I agree with Hot Core. There will be a huge difference between those hunters who can afford to control culling on private leases or land versus public hunting areas. In this case it would appear that spike bucks along with a more balanced Buck/Doe ratio was the object of the State Wildlife authorities. In my opinion, rightfully so.

Inferior stags and bucks should be culled along the way and as a rule of thumb yearling spikes that do not indicate future potential should culled forthwith.

You can normally apply the axiom that if yearling spikes are less than ear length at 1 1/2 years and show no inidcation of branching or forking they will be runts or not develop as quckly as other bucks with first year over ear length and indications and/or points that depict branching potential. They will often as not become second year bucks with only three tines or a small fork, net take 'em out.

Gerry

The "Once spike, always a spike" is not true at all.

We have quite a few spikes that only weigh about 80# and have spikes about 2-3" long, they are just youngsters that were born early or late.

Now, if you are descent at aging deer on the hoof and you see a spike that is 2.5 or 3.5 years old, he needs a dose of copper and lead ASAP.

We try to only shoot 6pts or better so, culling spikes is alittle hard w/ those rules. I have killed a 4pt that was 15" wide and weighed 200#, he was probably a spike in previous years. I have seen other bucks that had pretty nice racks w/ only 5 or 6 pts that probably also were spikes in previous years. Those bucks would make fine trophies for most hunters.

What I find funny about all of the different genetic theories is that alot of trophy hunting areas have spikes too. Humm, I wonder where those genes came in? I think it's possible for a big buck to throw a few bad seeds. It has alot to do w/ nutrition. If a trophy buck did not recieve proper nutrition in the spring and summer months, his rack would probably surprise you.

Good Luck!

Reloader

I have had the pleasure of hunting some of the best whitetail ranches in Texas. The way it usually works is get your numbers under control. Then work on the buck/doe ratio. Then you then start culling inferior bucks.

Some ranches have a policy of shoot all spikes on sight. Others have a specific number of bucks to be shot and a percentage will be set aside for spikes. When a percentage is done the spikes with the shortest antler (4" or less) are shot first going to bigger spikes until the quota is met. An average fawn survival rate in South Texas usually runs around 40%. When this happens on a well managed ranch a small percentage of the following years yearling bucks will be spikes. During good years of 80% or more fawn survival spike rates the following year can be as high as 50% or more.

As an example on a 6000 acre ranch I hunt where spikes are shot on sight some years we kill 4 or 5 spikes and some years we kill as many as 30. This place has been managed for 15 years so you will never remove the spike gene. Also remember that the doe contributes 50% of the genes.

Spikes can grow to be decent management type deer. So it depends what type of deer you are trying to grow. Do you want a steady population of mature deer every year or will you be happy with nothing but 170 plus deer.

Here's a bunch of info from the guys that started it all concerning spikes and whitetail management.
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/wma/find_a_wma/list/wildlife_management/kerr_wma/research/

A high population of spikes and button heads almost always goes hand in hand with one thing. Your doe population is too high. Spikes and buttons are almost always late born fawns. Does will come into esterous until they are impregnated. If the doe to buck ratio is too high you often end up with three rut periods. The dominant bucks just can't breed every hot doe during the first rut. These bucks just start to try and sprout antlers too early in their lifespan. This often leads to an inferior rack. To compound matters a young doe that is a late drop will also come into her first esterous late in the year. These 6month old mommas often have smaller than normal fawns because they aren't quite ready to bring a strong one to term. Couple that with barely mature bucks doing some of the breeding and you have a recipe for some dink deer.

The good news is that spikes and buttons don't necessarily carry bad genetics. There are some cases where they do but the doe to buck ratio should always be your first priority in a management program. A spike can grow into a decent buck but they typically never catch up to there earlier born brothers. Couple that with a low birth weight and you will quickly understand. Why do you think humans started asking each other how much the baby weighed

If the ratio is right (2:1 is ideal, 5:1 is a realistic goal for many areas) and you still have a high concentration of spikes. Then cull away.

Not true at all. The first spike I shot has since turned into a fine 10 point .

Hey OF, I've seen a few of the guys I hunt with have their Spikes(and Doe and Bucks and Hogs and Bears etc.) gain a few pounds after skinning and gutting.

Have seen it happen over BBQ, but is particularly bad about happening once legal hunting hours are gone and the Blue Ribbon comes out.