I have been in recent correspondence with administration at Gunsamerica, and I am very disappointed that they have an arrogant and hostile attitude. Gunsamerica recommends that buyers check sellers' phone numbers in a reverse phone director. However, the reverse phone directory is incomplete and inaccurate. I have complained about it to Gunsamerica, explaining that the incomplete and inaccurate information in the reverse phone directory is misleading their customers. In a rude and arrogant manner, Gunsamerica told me to take it up with the phone company and that it is not their problem. I think it is their problem since they are linking the legitimacy of Gunsamerica transactions to an incomplete and innacurate database.

In the spirit of supporting businesses that care about their customers and abandoning businesses that do not, I will not do business with Gunsamerica. And I urge those who want to experience a modicum of customer-oriented service not to patronize Gunsamerica either.

All of these sites are about the same; there is no real customer service, whether you are a buyer or seller. They only want their cut of your deal.

I had a buyer stop payment on a money order (not USPS) after they mailed it; by the time my bank went to the issuer, the stop order had been processed, and I was out the item, the $290 I sold it for, AND the commission. GunBroker wouldn't intervene, and I had to threaten the guy with criminal action and the Postal Inspectors before he coughed up the money.

I use GA as a resource to locate guns I am interested in, and then require a phone number and contact information. If I have any trepidation whatsoever, I take my business elsewhere.

George

500 grains,

Well put. Guns America is indeed baised towards sellers, and not towards buyers. Most sellers do not even list their phone numbers at all, so what's to check?

I find the same attitude with Gunbroker and Auction Arms. Many times I have found identical auctions, for the same product, with the same pictures, by the same sellers listed in auctions on both. When this was brought to their attention, I got deafening silence from both.

On Gun Broker, I point out that a seller had four auctions going at the same time, for the same used rifle (same picture and description), at four different starting prices. They did not reply until all four auctions were closed, with no winners. Only then did they say that they would "speak to the seller".

On Auction Arms, I pointed out that they had a error in their "Buy It Now" feature. Here's what happened; A Rifle was for sale at $600. "Buy it now" set @ $800.00. I bid for the item with a max bid of $810.00, and did not use the "buy it now" feature. My rational was why pay $800.00, when I can get it for $600.00. but my max bid was over the "buy it now" price, so if somebody tried the "buy it now" for $800., my max bid should have taken over. NOT! Auction Arms told me that "buy it now" always trumps a higher proxy bid. But they do not tell the sellers and buyer that.

Here's what's they have posted on their web site:

"BuyItNow!
BuyItNow! is a feature a Seller can specify during the auction creation process where that Seller can name a price he/she is immediately willing to sell at. BuyItNow! itself doesn't cost the seller anything to use, but if an item sells using BuyItNow!, then that seller will be charged the normal Final Value Fee for that item.

If the bidding meets or surpasses the BuyItNow! price in a Basic auction, or if the bidding meets or surpasses the BuyItNow! price in a Reserve auction, BuyItNow! automatically becomes disabled for that auction. If a bidder decides to use BuyItNow!, that auction is immediately closed and the bidder is named High Bidder of that item at the Seller's BuyItNow! price. As with all our auctions, there is no Bid Retraction available for BuyItNow! If you agree to BuyItNow!, make sure you're willing to purchase the item."

So they are quite clear that if the bidding exceeds the "buy it now", that feature goes away, but of course it does not.

Here's what Auction Arms said: "That would only hold true if the bidding had reached the buy it now price.
If your proxy bid surpasses the max bid price, but the bidding for the item has not reached that point then the buy it now could still be used and would override any proxy bids."

Well ok, I buy that, but you'd think they would mention it to potential buyers and sellers in their FAQ's?

Since then I have been very leary of Auction Arms, and indeed all Auction sites.

Bob

Personally I prefer the concept of classifieds to auctions. I would prefer just to tell people what I want to sell something for, or to hear what the seller wants for it, rather than going through a bidding game.

But with Gunsamerica confusing both sides with an inaccurate directory that is supposed to be legitimizing transactions, I concluded that an auction with a starting price that equals the selling price is best. In other words, the first bid buys the item.

For these reasons, in general I prefer the AR classifieds. Thanks Saeed!

I think the "problem" is that buyers are not the customers of GunsAmerica; the sellers are. Hence, whatever service there may be, is likely geared toward them.

RSY

While I am no great fan of GA I fail to see any merit to your grievance. It is not even remotely possible for GA, or anyone else, to be responsible for sellers or buyers. Their are scammers on both sides. If you can not verify the info or do not like what you find out, Dont buy the gun. It beats complaining and your not out any $.

Chuck,

Gunsamerica advises customers to check its reverse phone directory to verify the legitimacy of sellers before sending money.

But the reverse phone director is inaccurate and incomplete.

So as a result of following Gunsamerica's advice, customers receive inaccurate and incomplete information.

I think that is Gunsamerica's fault, don't you?

I had a very unpleasant experience with GA. I was one of their first sellers. After selling about twenty guns without a hitch, I got involved in a trade that the other party tried to renegotiate after the fact. We undid the deal but the other party didn't like my holding him to his own deal with regard to shipping costs, and complained to Schlomo, alleging, among other things, that I had attempted to cut GA out of the deal to avoid paying the $10 commission! Regardless of the fact that GA had my money for every gun I had listed, and could easily have verified that fact, he pronounced me a cheat and suspended my account permanently. I guess in this case we were both sellers and he chose to believe the other party. I later set up my own virtual gunshows, specializing in high value sporting firearms, and did so in a way that customers can't get hurt. On our sites, every seller is an FFL holder, every item is in stock, and every sale is an escrow sale. We don't have a lot of sellers as we are very picky about the company we keep. A lot of them won't sign up once they read (yes, we insist on an old-fashioned paper agreement) that they don't get their money until the inspection period has lapsed. That's fine with me, it's a sort of self-selection. If a dealer isn't sufficiently confident to ship the gun while we hold the money, then he's likely the kind of dealer that will cram misrepresented items down the customer's gullet. On the other hand, we don't issue refunds to buyers until the seller has his item back in hand, in the same condition as when it was shipped out. <p>
The other thing that amazes me about GA is the number of unlicenced dealers that use the site, and the ATF doesn't seem to notice or care. Come on, a guy who lists ten or more guns, year in and year out, is a dealer, and it's right there on the listing for all to see that he has no FFL. The "gentleman" with whom I had the run-in is still there, three years later, hustling with the rest of them, and still without a licence.<p>
Amazingly, with all the minor and major frauds that frequent GA and the other sites, the sites are busy as bazaaars and it doesn't seem to deter the buyers. No wonder Schlomo is arrogant...he doesn't need me and he doesn't need you, thank you very much.

I am loathe to use GunsAmerica because they don't use a customer feedback type rating system.

I consider a GunsAmerica listing to be no more than a lead to someone that want's to sell something and start my verification process from there, and on my own.

Many times the sellers are also on GunBroker, AuctionArms and ebay and I check them that way.

I also use www.anywho.com to find their phone numbers and call the people.

If their phone number doesn't match up with their name or business name I get REAL CAUTIOUS!!!

Buyer Beware!!

I also would like to take this opportunity to thank Saeed for providing us with AR at absolutely NO COST to us and with NO ADVERTIZING!!!

The best of the best!!!

Sincerely,
$bob$

NO ! I do not think it's GA's fault I think it's YOUR fault in this case IF you are foolish enough to initiate a transaction with some one who's back ground you can not verify. Again I am no great fan of GA for many reasons but this is petty. How do you alledge that GA is liable for the actions of another person ? Suggesting that they are responsable for some one elses phone directory is silliness.

Russ Gould,

Your points are well made, and I'm sure your a good and fair business man.

But when you start acting like the ATF you lose me. Where did you get the 10 or more guns BS. Dealing with out a licence applys only when you sell firearms without going thru an FFL.

Hell, I can buy and sell 100 firearms a year as long as each buyer picks up his firarm at a dealer, and passes the background check, and each firearm I buy, I pick up at my dealer, then I'm not acting like a dealer, and you guys with your virtual little monopoly enforced by the jackboots of the ATF can go pound salt.

Bob

I think your general negative outlook is the core problem. GA certainly has its issues but this is not one of them. Clearly YOU are the confused one as you continue to insist that GA's data base is inaccurate. In point of fact they do NOT retain a data base for any reverse look up. This is YOUR responsability to follow through on. The very thing yer whinning about is the one of the best tools to tip you off on people to avoid. If they simply gave you every number to verify then the reverse look up would be moot and you would have one less tool to ferrit out those you do not wish to do buisiness with. In your case I rather doubt you would even use the reverse look up if GA did not inform you of it. I think the only thing illigitimate is your trivial complaint. You simply can not hold a third party responsible for your transaction because YOU failed to do your own verification . But then this is doubly moot because all you are really doing is bitchin about a theoretical transaction. Even more important is the fact that GA discloses that they do not "regulate" their system. The entire site runs on the honor system. That includes paying your fees after you have sold a item. The response you received from GA in this case was correct. Take it up with the phone company. I'd like to hear the laughter you'd probably get considering the number of unpublished phone numbers alone

not that my opinion means much, but i must agree with chuckwagon. it is not GA's responsibility. even if they are a group of assholes, you've got to take it upon yourself to be sure of what you are assuming.



if they are suggesting a reverse phone look-up, then that is one way, but if it is inaccurate or incomplete there isn't a thing that they can do about it. they key word here is that they are SUGGESTING it, not makingg it an integral part of their operations. verification is up to YOU, and YOU are the one who is going to get burned if YOU screw up. i won't go as far as to describe your "complaint" as petty, but i can see where others would get that impression.



(added later)like 500 grains, i prefer a classified system rather than an auction, but i fail to see the difference as it relates to this topic, because you can get burned either way.(added later)

I agree with Crazy Horse (tasunkawitko) et.al. I have only run into any real problem with an online auction, and that was dealing with a seller that had no track record. Reverse lookup worked though, and he did answer my email, however, the item was somewhat misrepresented, and communication somewhat lacking after the sale! It was my responsibilty to check him out and decide whether to bid on the item. Good news is the manufacturer fixed it under warranty. That seller is on my AVOID list now, and he was not happy with my scathing email to him.

BTW - Ray Atkinson was a pleasure to deal with here.

OldGuy [aka Conquering Bear (elsewhere)]

I prefer the classifieds as well. But its always a calculated risk when you can not view the item in person and you are dealing with a stranger. I am no fan of GA, that's for certain.

I am a lawyer. And while this is not legal advice, John Frazier's description is closer to the law than any others. The profit motive as a business is the defining issue in "engaged in business", not the number of guns sold, nor their frequency, nor any notions of mandatory record-keeping (ala 4473). Dealers are those who sell guns to make money as a business, and only those persons need have an FFL. The rest of us, selling and buying guns as part of our hobby, use the services of the FFL to comply with various laws. We're not dealers, even if we advertise guns for sale.

This topic has gotten off-topic, so to speak. My problem with GA is that they INSIST that the seller provide a phone number that can be looked up in a reverse directory. Well guess what, they can kiss my ass. My home phone number is unlisted and intends to stay that way.

I'm not a dealer. I sell an occassional gun from my collection on GA. I process the transaction through an FFL dealer as required. I have no intention of letting any crook that wants to know where to find guns to steal, anonymously run my phone number and get my name and address. I'm unlisted for a reason.

So GA can kiss my ass. If a bona-fide buyer wants to verify me, I'll give him my phone number to call me. And he can send his $$$$ to an FFL that I use if that makes him happier.

GA is just trying to cover its own ass, against allegations that it is perpetuating and facilitating frauds. At the expense of the legitimate privacy of the seller.