I've found the threads on management and not shooting button bucks quite interesting. Especially the parts about spikes. I used to be of the school that shot all spikes. I've lightened up a bit and understand that there might be some reasons to give one a pass, but I still lean toward whacking and stacking them. Here's some game camera pictures of one I think needs culling. It seems to me that the body is large enough that it ought to go. What do ya'll think? This is in north central Texas.











Happy Thanksgiving.

Awwww, be nice. Give him a little time.
Jeff

In Alabama I'd age that deer at 1.5 and not shoot him. Unless you NEED to remove some bucks then I'd not shoot any spikes that you age at 1.5

One problem I've seen is that some bucks will have better, bigger bodies at 1.5 than others and be misaged at 2.5 because of the size. Antlers are the LAST thing to receive nutrients and may lag behind anything the body needs.

In 45 years of deer hunting and 26 years with G&F I've seen exactly one 2.5 or older spike. I killed it.

my two cents and worth all you paid for it..

troy

quote:

Originally posted by DTala:
In Alabama I'd age that deer at 1.5 and not shoot him. Unless you NEED to remove some bucks then I'd not shoot any spikes that you age at 1.5

One problem I've seen is that some bucks will have better, bigger bodies at 1.5 than others and be misaged at 2.5 because of the size. Antlers are the LAST thing to receive nutrients and may lag behind anything the body needs.

In 45 years of deer hunting and 26 years with G&F I've seen exactly one 2.5 or older spike. I killed it.

my two cents and worth all you paid for it..

troy

+1

For those that know "management" much better than I...(almost everyone).....what are the chances that spike will breed in the next 12 months?

Vapo, that depends on the age of the spike, and the buck-doe ratio, i.e., what other bucks is that deer competing with to get a hot doe that will allow him to breed her.

I have worked with the deer herd at the University of Georgia a fair bit, and definitely agree with the poster in your other thread that you shold let all bucks walk that are not trophies. The one exception I could agree to make to that is to shoot spikes that are clearly 3.5 year old deer. I have seen bucks that were spikes at 1.5 and 2.5 that became 150 class deer at 4.5-5.5
in that herd.

I don't think that most folks, including a lot of folks her at AR really understand what a trophy a 140 class deer is in most areas. I can tell you for a fact, that I have scored well over 1000 deer in the GON (Georgia Outdoor News) annual competition over the last many years, and it is VERY rare that we have a deer that is UNDER estimated on it's score. 99% of these deer are just gross scored (no deductions in total score) and folks are amazed at the numbers. People who think a 160 class deer is routinely available through management are just kidding themselves. A 160 class buck is a tremendous animal, regardless of where--certainly they are more common in colder climates with historically great genetics, like Illinois, Kansas etc. than Georgia or other Souteastern states....Texas, well that's a whole other thing--IMO Texas has got it all over most other places in recognizing what an asset their game animals are, and the management and hunting in Texas are way ahead of most other places in most every aspect. I would defer to many game manager about the culls in Texas, but the two I know personally, who are both biologists, do not advocate shooting spikes. In fact, unless mistaken during field judging, which these guys rarely do, the cull bucks are 3.5 years old. Does are shot just to get to a number, and obviously small yearling does are not shot--just FYI stuff I guess....

Knoll pretty well debunked the shoot all spikes theory held sacred by TxPW for the last couple of decades with his latest exhausting research on some Texas ranches. Given time they all even out.

For years while under the tutelage of TPW koolaid biologists, if the deer was a spike, he was dead, but I've now dropped out of the level 3 game management program and I don't shoot them automatically anymore. All that said, I will take a spike if he looks "long" or weird and because we are a two buck county now but one has to be a spike (goes back to sacred theory of TPW above).

My general observation, unproven by anything other than aging shot spikes, is that 99% of spikes are 1 1/2s.

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
I don't think that most folks . . . really understand what a trophy a 140 class deer is in most areas.

People who think a 160 class deer is routinely available through management are just kidding themselves.

Texas has got it all over most other places in recognizing what an asset their game animals are, and the management and hunting in Texas are way ahead of most other places in most every aspect.

Amen, amen, and Amen!

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:


I don't think that most folks, including a lot of folks her at AR really understand what a trophy a 140 class deer is in most areas.

People who think a 160 class deer is routinely available through management are just kidding themselves. A 160 class buck is a tremendous animal

I am amazed at how many times I have heard people say they killed a (whatever class deer) and then showed me a much smaller rack. I even had a co-worker get pissed at me for telling him his deer’s actual score because it wasn't what his friend told him it should be.

A ton of 140" deer are actually 120/125 and allot of 160 are really 130/140
(most 8 lb bass are about 5 lbs after they hit a real scale)

For the topic though....the deer is wearing his first rack and should be given more time.

Depends on how much I need venison and how hungry I am. If I need the meat he would be dead as soon as he step out.

I don't mine horns but I more of a meat hunter then any thing.

At one time, any spike I saw was dead meat. No longer.
Young spikes walk.
GWB

Shot one today for the freezer.

quote:

Originally posted by LWD:
...I still lean toward whacking and stacking them. Here's some game camera pictures of one I think needs culling. It seems to me that the body is large enough that it ought to go. ...

I agree "for where I Hunt". That one should have a small 6,7, or 8-point Basket Rack in the Lowcountry. So, it would be in the freezer.

quote:

By Vapo:
what are the chances that spike will breed in the next 12 months?

No chance at all with it in the freezer.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

By Vapo:
what are the chances that spike will breed in the next 12 months?

No chance at all with it in the freezer.

Not even viagra will help him in the freezer!!!!

I appreciate all your replies. This may very well be his first set of antlers, and he's not really big in the body. But I don't want him out breeding and eating groceries for nothing if his antlers aren't going anywhere.

I have probably been overly influenced by one spike I saw a couple of years when I first started seriously hunting. We could identify him by his horns. One was about the size of a regular number 2 pencil; the other was about the size of golf pencil and had a little crook to it on the top. The next year his body and horns were only barely bigger than previous year. I saw him opening day the second year and would have popped him but that county was still a one buck county, so he got to live another year.

So this one may turn on if I have some meat in the freezer if/when I see him.

LWD

He wont breed if there are older bucks on the property. That said, let him walk. If he needs culling catch up with him at 4.5.

Perry

I passed on one about 9:00 this morning about like that first spike pictured here. And it was my only shot of the morning. It would have been against the rules of where I hunt.

In addition to letting them grow bigger, another reason to give them a skip is that so many buttonbucks are accidentally shot.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fish30114:


I don't think that most folks, including a lot of folks her at AR really understand what a trophy a 140 class deer is in most areas.

People who think a 160 class deer is routinely available through management are just kidding themselves. A 160 class buck is a tremendous animal

I am amazed at how many times I have heard people say they killed a (whatever class deer) and then showed me a much smaller rack. I even had a co-worker get pissed at me for telling him his deer’s actual score because it wasn't what his friend told him it should be.

A ton of 140" deer are actually 120/125 and allot of 160 are really 130/140
(most 8 lb bass are about 5 lbs after they hit a real scale)

Ted, You are so correct. I've seen lots of "170" class bucks that didn't qutie measure up once the tape hit the horns.

As to the spike, he does look young and there are several reason that he didn't put on more antlers. If he's still a spike next year though, I'd shoot him. He eats the same amount of resources that a forked antler buck eats with less to show for.

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
He wont breed if there are older bucks on the property. ...

Hey Perry, Do you believe the number of available Does has any factor in the Breeding, or that the "older Bucks" take care of them all regardless of how many Does are around?

A 1.5 spike when there is adequate nutrition and the other 1.5's are 4 or 6 pt I would cull. The problem with many Texas counties now is that if he branches on both sides and never gets to the minimum width then he will never be legal again.

Of course the number and carrying capacity of the area should play into the final decision of how much culling is done.

Where I hunt we have a terrible buck to doe ratio--way too many does, so the state of Oklahoma has reduced the buck limit to two bucks. For primitive, bow, and rifle seasons combined you can kill only two bucks, so, I'd let the spike walk. I have let a number of bucks walk this year. I've taken one good one during primitive season and keep waiting for another good one. It is possible that I could end the year with only one buck, but I don't really mind because I want us to have more and better bucks to hunt. My point is that it all depends on the situation--where you hunt and the condition of the deer herd--as to whether you shoot the spike.

I didn't see many of you mention late borns. We have a ton of spikes in the areas I hunt and most are late borns with tiny bodies. Even the trophy managed area I hunt has plenty of dink spikes. Just takes them a while to catch up, but they almost always grow into nice bucks. Matter of fact we've never seen one become a spike at 2.5. I will admit I've seen some become large 5 and 6pts at 2.5, but they still keep growing into nice bucks. I personally don't think a deer should be considered a cull until 3.5, many disagree. If they are less than 8pts at 3.5, bust em

I got pics of two spikes last year that turned into a 90s class 8pt and 80s class 6pt at 2.5. The 6pt was a tiny bodied spike the year before with little 1" spikes, I think when he hits 4.5 he will be impressive, but he's definitely behind in progression as a youngster. Most of the spikes seem to turn into descent bucks the following year and nice bucks the 3rd year.

Reloader

Normally I'd pass, but there's a lot to think about:

1. there has been an abundance of browse this year in Texas
2. generally speaking I'd be concerned that he may never get to 13" even when he grew some horns so why pass up the shot- are you a spike/13" horned county? (I am)
3. he passes the $1 bill rule
4. if he gives you a head shot.....

I think you need to look at #1 and #2 and decide from there

I passed on one this past weekend lookin kinda like that little bastard........but I just didn't feel like skinnin a deer.....now my father in law was lookin for one to shoot

I had the opportunity to glass this deer very closely for a while this morning. He definitely needs a pass. I think he's got good potential. This is his first set of antlers, and he's got a pretty good sized body relatively speaking-especially for the area. Thanks again.

LWD

He's juat a baby.

I passed a little 3 point this year. Very odd looking antlers. He had a slight crab claw at the very tip of his left side and a single spike on his right, but I noticed a 'bump' on his right that was either another crab claw broken off or the it just didn't grow. THe most intersting thing about this guy was his palmation. He was really bladed from the crab claw all the way to the base of his horns. I hope I see him again in about 3 years!!!