Impressive. Thanks a lot for posting.

That's why we should shoot wolves.

I emailed the link to several friends...consensus was as expected. Shoot the wolves.

Awesome pics. It's sad to see an animal die, but death is part of nature, always has been.

It is so interesting that when there was a video of a black bear hauling off a moose calf still kicking and struggling, everyone cheered while jeering how the bunny huggers must have been wailing about the cruelty of it all.

No one campaigning to rid the world of cougar or bears.

Quite the double standard when it comes to wolves.

Brent

Brent-

your words strike me as those spoken by a man who do not live amongst wolves. Have you ever literally seen them in your yard? I have, with the most recent occurence week before last. Also live amongst bears, and we shoot them. I do not live amongst mountain lions, but those I know who do hunt them. I see absolutley no double standard, except for people who demand we keep the wolves free from sport hunting.

I'll make a deal with you-I won't tell you what it is like to live in an Iowa corn field and you won't tell me what it is like to live in the middle of a wolf haven. Fair?

Don't you think it a little strange that where I am sitting right now, I would LITERALLY be in more trouble for shooting a wolf than another man, but I could drive north for 2 hours and cross an imaginary line where wolves are considered vermin on the other side and they can be shot on sight every day of the year. I have spent a significant amount of time across that imaginary line and can assure you that they get shot when the oppurtunity presents itself and yet the wolf populaion continues to grow, while the moose population drops.

If wolves ate corn plants, Iowa would have a bounty on them.

Mark the answer to your first question is yes. Several times. My yard used to be in Northern MN.

AS for your second question - tough luck.

The rest of your post is the normal hyperbole of irrational thinking and exaggeration.

Brent


Brent

I don't think there is a double standard. Spring bears are very hard on deer fawns and especially elk calves, but predation is virtually nill the rest of the year. Cats kill what need to sustain themselves and do it in a manner that is not disruptive to the rest of the animals in the area. They ambush their prey and for the most part, it's over very quickly. In either case the overall stress to the animals involved prior to becoming prey is minimal. I'd much rather have my neck snapped by a cat then be run down, hamstrug and eaten alive by wolves. Neither bears generally nor cats kill indescriminately or for "sport" as is often the case with wolves where they trap a group of prey in a vulnerable situation, such as deep snow or in a pen. Moreover, both bears and cats are considered big game and can be hunted and their numbers controlled in most areas (Ca being an exception). If bears and cats were the problem the numbers of ungulates in the Rockies would not have been as high as they were prior to wolf introduction. Moreover, if the numbers of ungulates in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming had plummeted like they have over the last 5 years do to the issuance of much greater numbers of hunting permits or the allowance of say night hunting with spotting scopes or whatever, I'm sure the same folks that "love" the fact that the wolves are fat and happy and decimating the herds would be screaming that hunting should be banned. It's just that they (you) choose the canine "weapon" and as such are thrilled with the results, which, in their mind if allowed to continue, should (they will say) result in a tremendous curtailment of hunting, since the predators are "controlling" the game herds. Is there room for wolves in the Western states? Sure, at about 5-10% of the present numbers. The problem is that the "wolf train" has left the station and is heading full steam at what is left of the game herds in many parts of the western states. With their population expanding at 20% a year and with the delaying litigation tactics that the pro wolf folks will employ, I predict that there will be twice the number of wolves in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming before the first one is shot by a hunter with a tag and the numbers of elk and deer will be at virtual all time lows and the moose and sheep populations will be virtually wiped out.

I think Isleroyale is doing fine......without our "assistance"....

Here we go again.....

IV

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:
I think Isleroyale is doing fine......without our "assistance"....

Here we go again.....

IV

For tens of thousands, make that hundreds of thousands, of years, predators and their prey have gotten along just fine w/o our management ala' the 98 Mouser technology. But suddenly now, the game has changed?

I guess if you can't get out of your truck to shoot your elk, you need all the elk you can cram into the woods.

Fasten your seatbelt IV

Brent

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
That's why we should shoot wolves.

But you kill moose, too, don't you?

What about sharing? Half our roe deer and boar are killed by car accidents. Could I choose, I'd prefer wolves and less highways.

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:
I think Isleroyale is doing fine......without our "assistance"....

Here we go again.....

IV

For tens of thousands, make that hundreds of thousands, of years, predators and their prey have gotten along just fine w/o our management ala' the 98 Mouser technology. But suddenly now, the game has changed?

I guess if you can't get out of your truck to shoot your elk, you need all the elk you can cram into the woods.

Fasten your seatbelt IV

Brent

Yup, could be a pissin' match.

Isle Royal is completely isolated and unique. Not a very fair comparison. None of the wolves/moose can leave and no new wolved/moose can arrive. This is not true to MN, WI, MI and other states where the wolves have been (re)introduced. They migrate and start new packs (and have been found in IA, IL, IN and OH by the way with collars tagged in the aformentioned Northern states).

If wolf populations grow enough I see no reason not to list them as game animals like coyote, bobcat, fox, mtn lion and other predators. Like it or not, outside of an isolated ecosystem like Isle Royal, the wildlife needs to be managed. Hunting allows a state to do just that and generate much needed revenue in the process.

So, what would be the best cartridge and rifle for hunting wolf?

quote:

Originally posted by Clem:
They migrate and start new packs (and have been found in IA, IL, IN and OH by the way with collars tagged in the aformentioned Northern states).

Oh really? I've missed this. Where is the data on IA in particular? I know of one you missed in MO, but IA is news to me.

As for the rest of it, wolves have been coexisting with big game in MN longer than they have been on IR. So, they must get along fine in nonisolated systems too. Not to mention the thousands of years prior to the invention of the great white hunter/manager/rifleman.

You really don't understand much when you compare open systems that are far easier to self-regulate to small, closed systems that are incredibly difficult to maintain a stable coexistence. You need to bone up on island population ecology.

BTW, wolves were never reintroed to MN, they self reintroduced in WI, and MI has had it both ways. The reintroduced wolves were shot out 20 yrs ago or more. But nature finds a way and they are there on their own now. Enjoy them....

Brent

I do agree with Brent on this one. I think there is too much biased against Wolves on this board and among hunter community. I have seen hundreds of pictures of Lions killing buffalo, leopard killing worthogs and cheetahs killing tommy's but noone thinks that all the lions, leopards and cheetahs should be shot.

Wolves are highly evolved predators and can teach us humans a thing or two about survival and teamwork. And as for the fact that wolves and coyotees target the new born calves and fawns, well that's just the reality of the jungle. The weak one gets eaten first.

If we relocated them and Grizzly's to LA and central park we could take care of the homeless problem and illegal imigration all at once.

Alaska and/ or Alaskans seem to be able to maintain a healthy population of ungulate game animals and predators either by or inspite of hunting seasons on both.
To be sure, eradication of lower 48 wolves is extreeme and probably immposible, but a hunting season seems prudent.

quote:

Originally posted by Harris:
I have seen hundreds of pictures of Lions killing buffalo, leopard killing worthogs and cheetahs killing tommy's but noone thinks that all the lions, leopards and cheetahs should be shot.

Excellent point.

quote:

Originally posted by MT Gianni:
If we relocated them and Grizzly's to LA and central park we could take care of the homeless problem and illegal imigration all at once.

On the same note we could relocate the Idaho, Montana and Wyoming rednecks (myself included) to the streets of LA and rid the world of ignorance towards large carnivores......

Touche.....

IV

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:

quote:

Originally posted by Clem:
They migrate and start new packs (and have been found in IA, IL, IN and OH by the way with collars tagged in the aformentioned Northern states).

Oh really? I've missed this. Where is the data on IA in particular? I know of one you missed in MO, but IA is news to me.

Brent

I think he heard it from you unless this quote is BS.

Posted 19 November 2006 05:10 19 November 2006 05:10
quote:
Originally posted by Snapper:
Since we have more than 3 times the population objective of wolves in Yellowstone, I would like to trade the excess to Iowa for pheasants.

If possible, I would like to see Brent spearhead this effort because he would like to see wolves in Iowa and we would like to see him happy.

We could continue this with other states that support our growing wolf population. We have enough to go around and help these states start their own viable populations of wolves.


I would be happy to make the trade but we generally trade turkeys for other species. On the other hand what do you need more turkeys for when you already have kudu? Pheasants are fine by me though.

Unfortunately, for you, wolves are coming here w/o your help, so I suspect we really wouldn't be bothered with trading much for your wolves since we will have them anyway. At least one or two have been here already. One of them perhaps on my land.

Yup, wolves are a good thing.

Brent

Nice!

Gee Snap, I was hoping for confirmation of another one. Keep hoping - oh well.

Brent

Some of this posting is just plain pathetic:

quote:

In either case the overall stress to the animals involved prior to becoming prey is minimal. I'd much rather have my neck snapped by a cat then be run down, hamstrug and eaten alive by wolves. Neither bears generally nor cats kill indescriminately or for "sport" as is often the case with wolves where they trap a group of prey in a vulnerable situation, such as deep snow or in a pen.

That quote is just plain ignorant. There are many examples of bears and lions killing large numbers of animals at once because they were readily available...just ask any sheep rancher who has experienced bear or lion depredation.

Mother nature isn't fair, she is very cruel and cold...not warm and fuzzy like animal planet would lead you to believe.

Instead of pointing fingers at an animal that receives a bunch of flack because it is good at what it does (especially since many here have preconceived notions without ever even picking up a book on wolf ecology), how about pointing the finger at the people who are responsible for placing these animals here despite local outcry, refusal to allow states to manage these animals after false promises, and having spent millions of tax payer's dollars to reintroduce an animal back into a landscape that has changed dramatically since the wolf was extirpated 100 years ago. The wolf is doing what comes natural, it does not kill elk because it has any personal vendetta against any of you. Unfortunately, these animals have been released into an envirnoment that realistically doesn't give them much of a chance, too bad the folks who opened the doors didn't think about this fact.

MG

For the most part I agree with Brent. Wolves have rights too, in my world.

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:

quote:

Originally posted by Clem:
They migrate and start new packs (and have been found in IA, IL, IN and OH by the way with collars tagged in the aformentioned Northern states).

Oh really? I've missed this. Where is the data on IA in particular? I know of one you missed in MO, but IA is news to me.

As for the rest of it, wolves have been coexisting with big game in MN longer than they have been on IR. So, they must get along fine in nonisolated systems too. Not to mention the thousands of years prior to the invention of the great white hunter/manager/rifleman.

You really don't understand much when you compare open systems that are far easier to self-regulate to small, closed systems that are incredibly difficult to maintain a stable coexistence. You need to bone up on island population ecology.

BTW, wolves were never reintroed to MN, they self reintroduced in WI, and MI has had it both ways. The reintroduced wolves were shot out 20 yrs ago or more. But nature finds a way and they are there on their own now. Enjoy them....

Brent

The data comes from the IA dnr.

quote:

Not all species in the order Carnivora are carnivores. Some are omnivores (e.g., fox, coyote, skunk, raccoon). Many will not pass up a free meal and are opportunistic scavengers (eat animals that have died recently). Iowa carnivores include mink, weasel, badger, and otter. Some large carnivores are finding a home in Iowa once more. Sightings of black bear, mountain lion, bobcat, and wolf are more frequent each year. Recent bear, mountain lion, and bobcat sightings have included young of the year, indicating reproduction in the wild.

http://www.iowadnr.com/education/wldresbs.html

Don't get me wrong. I like seeing the wolves. I have seen them on a number of occasions in the UP of Michigan and Northern Wisconsin. I just have a problem with them being coerced on us. They need to be managed like the rest of our wildlife and I see nothing wrong with a limited draw hunt to keep the population in check. I do not see that happening. It is too political and the PETA freeks would have a conniption.

quote:

Originally posted by Clem:

The data comes from the IA dnr.
[QUOTE]Some large carnivores are finding a home in Iowa once more. Sightings of black bear, mountain lion, bobcat, and wolf are more frequent each year. Recent bear, mountain lion, and bobcat sightings have included young of the year, indicating reproduction in the wild.

Thanks Clem, but sightings are just that - UFOs are sighted too. Along with Elvis, The Madonna, and kudu56....

I was hoping for something better verified.

That said, some sightings of bear and mountain lion in the state do become verified. To my knowledge, none of the wolf sightings have been verified and certainly no established pack is acknowledged to exist in Iowa at this time.

Brent

PS. I think you are wrong on the limited draw issue. I do think it will happen, but not until the 3S folk shut their collective trap.

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:

quote:

Originally posted by Clem:

The data comes from the IA dnr.
[QUOTE]Some large carnivores are finding a home in Iowa once more. Sightings of black bear, mountain lion, bobcat, and wolf are more frequent each year. Recent bear, mountain lion, and bobcat sightings have included young of the year, indicating reproduction in the wild.

Thanks Clem, but sightings are just that - UFOs are sighted too. Along with Elvis, The Madonna, and kudu56....

I was hoping for something better verified.

That said, some sightings of bear and mountain lion in the state do become verified. To my knowledge, none of the wolf sightings have been verified and certainly no established pack is acknowledged to exist in Iowa at this time.

Brent

PS. I think you are wrong on the limited draw issue. I do think it will happen, but not until the 3S folk shut their collective trap.

Didn't you say a wolf was found in MO? If it came from Minnesota what route did it take?

It is possible it went via Wisconsin/Illinois.

I don't believe they have a radio tracking of the animal. It went off air and then was found wearing a collar in MO. At least, that is what I have heard.

Individual animals wandering around are hardly interesting, Mt. Lion, Moose and mule deer do this in Iowa regularly. There are no populations of these species. Their impacts as part of the community of wildlife are trivial.

I'm waiting to hear that a pack or pair at least are trying to set up shop in Iowa. I am expecting that to happen if it has not already. I had hoped you might have some info to that effect.

Brent

Talking about this topic is like an AntiHunter and a ProHunter trying to change on another's mind.

It is pathetic rhetoric that people spout which muddies the waters. Wolves in the lower 48 are NOT HUNTED. Mtn Lions, black bears, coyotes ARE HUNTED. Grizzly Bears are not as prolific as wolves and thus are not YET huntable. Stop comparing Cougars and Bears to wolves.

In my neck of the woods, our Wildlife Agency has management objectives for both predators and prey. If a predator population is above objective then they issue more tags. They understand that there can only be a certain number of predators before they negativly impact the prey species. Wolves have met their objectives, based on ALL science. Yet they are not allowed to be hunted.

You guys know NOTHING of what is truely happening in the back country of the West. Moose hunts have been closed due to excessive wolf predation and the moose population in certain areas is crashing. For those few who have visited the Thorofare of Wyoming know exactly that.

ProWolf fools keep claiming the wolf coexisted here of 10,000s years with their prey species. Not with interstates, towns, high powered rifles, ski slopes, developement of winter ranges (yes elk, moose and mule deer do migrate more than Iowa whitetails), etc... they didn't. The pery species must put up with much more than wolves and you can't ignore the other factors in the science basing how many wolves we can have.

I don't care if there are a managed group of wolves, but it is idiotic to claim that unmanaged wolves are a good thing for anyone but wolf lovers and wolves. In the West, if you get wolves, you loose hunting. That is a fact.

Scott King, you might reside in Alaska but you must not get out of the house too much.

Every Alaskan outfitter I spoke to at the Eastern Sportsman Show here in Pa (its a large show) about Moose and Caribou hunts stated to me that the Wolves were decimating the Moose and Caribou populations. Many now do not even try to take what they could because they don't want to make the matter worse than it already is. Two stopped Moose hunts all-together because they hardly had any to speak of left. Most stated that the rise in the cost of moose hunts (most over $10,000 now)in particular is because they have to hunt harder and longer to get a hunter onto a legal moose, getting more difficult each year. There were only two Alaskan outfitters that had a good huntable amount of moose in their area. Now, many of them, and get this...advised me to hunt in either BC or the Yukon if I wanted a decent moose hunt. They did not want me to waste my time and money, a trait I must say that I admire. When asked why, they simply stated....they have a wolf predation program that works, we don't. This is absolutely no bullshit either. Scott, you need to get out of the house more!

I prefer wolf/dog hybreds. Might be best for the wilds of iowa! Maybe we can encourage some one to release a few of them for brent. Fake wolves for a fake outdoorsman!

quote:

Every Alaskan outfitter I spoke to at the Eastern Sportsman Show here in Pa (its a large show) about Moose and Caribou hunts stated to me that the Wolves were decimating the Moose and Caribou populations

Woodrow, woodrow, woodrow, has not the likes of brent and iv convinced you that wolves do not harm big game populations??? Even though G&F bilogists, game wardens, our Govenor, scientists, outfitters, and even the us fish and wolf service have now stated that the wolves are dramatically reduceing elk numbers in the west! GEEESH, for shits sakes, wolves are vegitarians and aliens are getting the elk!

And never mind that the two above mentioned dipshits are full of shit!

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:

For tens of thousands, make that hundreds of thousands, of years, predators and their prey have gotten along just fine w/o our management ...

Brent

I remember this was the original reason those of us living around Yellowstone didn't want wolves released. They were already they coming down from Glacier National Park and one had been harvested just South of the Park in 1992. see the picture below.

Woodrow,

It might be possible to do a search and see in color my moose hunting results on this forum over the last couple of years.

Rather than reply in kind to your condesention, I'll post facts that you are free to verify with phone calls or e-mails to our various Alaskan based game managers.

Fact: Dall sheep numbers on the north slope of the Brooks Range are exceeding recorded historical counts.

Fact: Caribou in the North West Arctic herd are at or near record levels.

Fact: Moose numbers in Game management Unit 17 are doing so well that currently Board of Game allows 5 different hunts at two different times and the Board of Game is considering even more.

Also fact, due in no small part to predator control the moose herd around McGrath is rebuilding, so yes, predators do play a part in herd health. I never claimed different.

Now Woodrow, could it be that the average American "Sportsman" has grown more lethargic than ever (they do make and sell remote controls for CAR STEREOS,)and that lethargy is the real reason game seems harder and harder to come by?

I went and looked just to make sure I wasn't going to make a goof of myself, (yeah right like I could prevent that,) and some pictures of healthy moose in wolf country are posted under "Good moose grunting" in the Alaska Forum.

Alaska game regs allow for any bull to be taken with the registration permit in my neck of the woods, and I think ten wolves per day if you have a hunting/ fishing/ trapping license.

Seems like pretty liberal limits for both don't you think?

More pictures provided upon request.

I should have said in my neck of the woods the reg's allow,........

Unless your shooting the wolves from an airplane, you are not going to shoot 10 per day. Thats the problem...there is no real good wolf management program in Alaska. Yes, there are moose...in certain areas, which I believe I made clear in my original post. Remember, the people I spoke with are in the business of moose and caribou hunting. They certainly know more about what the heck is going on than ANY game official or most residents. Yes, we had people who THINK they know what is going on too, which is why we have such poor deer hunting here over the past 5 years. The reasons for the much harder moose hunting was not because people are in poor hunting condition, but rather the good wolf condition. BTW, some parts of Alaska are going to require a person who wants a moose tag be present to pick it up, with the intention of making it too much trouble for non-residents to hunt moose. This would allow the moose population time to regenerate...what a crock of bullshit if I ever heard any. Its not the non-resident hunting that is the problem...its the wolves. The way I look at it...if they want to cut their nose off to spite their face...so be it. Non- residents pay a big dollar for the moose they take...its free to the wolves. I wonder how long this program will go on before the light bulb lights up?

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
... Remember, the people I spoke with are in the business of moose and caribou hunting

And I suppose they are objective, unbiased and w/o any hint of conflict of interest right?

Given your use of "we" what part of Alaska is Pa. in anyway?

Brent, you crack me up.

Woodrow,
I generally agree with most of what you said last with the exception of the guides and outfitters knowing more about what goes on with game herds than the state game officials.
All of our game biologists live in the game management units they supervise, and all are out observing regularly. No, not most, all are out regularly. I know, I live here, I see them. Apparently the guides are down in Pennsylvania with you. There certainly has been an ebb and flow of herd numbers, (the Mulchatna Caribou herd is in the toilet,)but in this case, nobody could prove a link to over predation. Postulate sure, prove, no.

The non resident hunter issue is kinda sticky. You are right, non residents pay big bucks, and any Fish and Game manager will tell you a large part of their budget comes from license and tag fees. Tourism in general is a very valuable industry in this state. That being said, many residents get their feathers ruffled when tourists hunt "their" game. It's a long process to convince folks that "outsiders" are good.