I posted a poll about this last week. The Big Game Hunting Forum is mostly against it and the African forum is mostly for it. Let's devise some rules that seem acceptable.

I'll start with this.

No Native North American Animals Allowed
The reason being I feel that native species are held in common and are not for sale. 'Exotic' or introduced animals are like cows or chickens, private property and can be sold just as readily.

Thus, no Elk Ranches in Colorado or Maine and no Whitetail Deer Farms in Michigan or Texas. If you have a High Fence Operation you must get rid of or not hunt native species.

Not for me thanks. I think it's strictly up to each individual how they want to hunt, shoot, harvest, kill or whatever you want to call it. I've hunted on fenced ranches and will probably continue to in the future. I also hunt wide open spaces, even hunted areas in Virginia on smallish wooded areas where you were required to use shotgun only and had to hunt from a tree stand for safety.

Personally I think the exreme bashing some of the board members give hunters about hunting fenced land is way out of line. If you don't like it, just don't go. If you think that makes you better than someone else, well I'm glad it makes you feel special.

Just remember, everytime you start in on a fellow hunter you are hurting your own opportunities in the future. If you believe the animal rights and environmentalist folks just want to shut down hunting on fenced ranches you need to wake up.

I can think of a couple ranches you could be dropped off in the middle, and you probably wouldn't even be able to FIND the fence for a day or two.

Why not direct your animosity toward the anti-hunting crowd? I don't hunt whitetails behind a high fence because I am fortunate to have frineds with ranches I can hunt. I don't think migratory animals should be fenced. I also don't piss on hunters who hunt deer behind a high fence here. As Forest pointed out in the Africa forum, there are a LOT of ranches in Texas larger than some eastern states. There is no doubt you can have good, ethical, fair chase whitetail hunting behind a high fence on a well managed ranch. Most, not all, of the folks ranting and raving have never seen a good high fenced ranch and don't know what they are talking about. They are just parroting what others say and what they see on TV.....which is pretty bad. I don't think we need to constantly beat this to death. Blanket condemnation of other hunters does no one any good.

Good Hunting,

Bob

All well and good. But, WA, ID, MT, CA, NV, and AZ in the West have banned any type of High Fenc Hunting. OR has banned HF hunting of Native species and is attempteing to close the only operation left that still hunts exotics. CO, IN and NC will have bills voted on this year to ban ALL HF hunting ,regardless of species or size of operation. The log is rolling and picking up speed.

For years HF operations have ignored the objections by AR and Hunters and the Hunting Organizations have been more concerned with the Revenue from HF advertisements and record book entries to take a position.

The Montana coalition of HSUS and RMEF that brought hunters and non hunters together to ban HF hunting in that State and the current SCI Presidents ownership of a HF operation has finally started a serious effort to come up with some guidelines that can be defended by SCI and also supported by the membership.

It is not enough to make general statements about size, each animal has different requirements, opportunity to escape, an animal can only go to the fence, etc etc. Hard and fast rules that cover all captive animals are all that will sell to the vast majority of the non-hunting public. Whether or not people are against hunting it is too easy of a sell to call it canned hunting and impossible to defend without standards that are defensible.

I spent last weekend on a HF Ranch in Oregon. My first experience in NA. 1500 acres on the side of a Mountain with lots of draws and steps, 3/4 timbered. The Goats and Sheep, Buffalo, Yaks, Watusi were for shooters only. The Russian Boar, Fallow Deer and Eland would be fun and challenging. It is what it is and I had a good time with some very nice people and saw a few animals taken. But a tough sell to the non-hunting public.

Just some thoughts and looking for input. Is it possible to set some universal standards that can be supported by most hunters? I don't know, I don't know if most hunters even support the concept of HF Hunting.

Bob

Don't you get it yet? It is not important what you think or what I think. It is only important
what the majority of voters think. If Texas and Michigan are the only two HF states left what makes you think that Congress won't pass a law banning HF hunting for the entire country? They are introduced every year.

I've hunted Nilgai and Blackbuck behind a fence in Texas. There's no place to hunt them that's not behind a fence. That's my personal rule; I'll hunt animals that cannot be taken any other way. I go to Africa for African animals, the wilds of the West for elk, muleys, pronghorn, etc.

I don't know where you got the idea game ranch hunting is banned in Montana. I sure never heard of it. There is restrictions on new game ranches, and transfer of ranches. And these were brought on by HSUS, definitely anti-hunter, RMEF, more and more anti, and loosing much support in it's home area, and the Montana Bowhunters association, a bunch of short dick little boys afraid some animals head may find it's way into the record book that they didn't kill. The legislature is working on changing or eliminating these regulations brought about by initiative process.

Mickey,

Yes, I get it. This is what happens when uneducated city folks who have been bombarded with the distorted information by the VERY well financed anti-hunting crowd go to the ballet box. It is what happens when self-righteous, uninformed hunters start pissing on each other. This debate has been hashed and rehashed. Go on with your little bash fest if you must.

Adios,

Bob

I can say what happens in California because I live here, and I was raised as a hunter.

Land owners can and do run native game operations with the blessing of the California Department of Fish and Game. Landowners can be allocated the ability to sell hunt opportunities, and also can crop the herds to improve the local numbers of shootable bucks.

jim dodd

The new regulations weren't put in place by any organization--rather, the people of MT (definately not "uneducated city-folk") voted for the rules. We, as a population, do not want game farms. It is well documented that game farms are a very likely way to introduce CWD to our state. This hurts some industry for the state, but it also protects one of our most important resources. Now some in the legislature are (or were) trying to do away with the vote of the people in a sleazy attempt to appease special interest groups.

Whether or not HF hunting is ethical is beside the point to me. We in MT need to protect our natural resource.

With the current, unchecked, run away, population of wolves in Wy, Mt,and Id, fenced hunting in the near future, will be the only place that is safe for game and the only place you can find an animal to harvest. The RMEF supports the wolf program as well as other neo-enviromental groups through out the west. Wy. does not allow any fenced hunting or introduction of any game animal. Yet the state allowed the wolves to be introduced. If you can introduce an eating machine that will decimate wildlife populations, as they have, then HF hunting should be allowed. I have hunted for 34 years, several countries, dozens of different species! I have no problem at all for HF hunting. In some cases it is just shooting, small acreges, 100 acres or so, but some have better habitat as the remote places I hunt in Wy.

browningguy and Bob in TX: you're right. all these people who want to set up so many rules remind me of the left wing liberals. this "holier than thou" attitude just irritates the hell out of me. the land i hunt on in SE Oklahoma is fenced with a 4' tall fence. now someone is gonna tell me that if that fence was taller, that they are gonna tell me by what "rules" i may hunt. what a stupid premise.

[ 05-04-2003, 21:37: Message edited by: bill smith ]

Mickey1,
Who died and left you emperor of the world. I would be very surprised if the law change passes in NC. There are to many of us just plain farmers that have had to fence in their land to keep out the critters (2 and 4 legged) that can't/won't read "No Trespass" signs. I don't sell access to my farm in fact I don't give access any more either, to many problems with this sue crazy population.
I OWN 5300 acres and all but the 5 acres that the main house is on is high fenced. Just to give you an idea of size that is about 8 1/2 square miles (a block 2 miles wide X 4 miles long) I'll keep taking care of the native animals on my farm with food plots, land that I leave fallow, fence and ditch rows that I don't clear, field edges that aren't extended into the tree line, the game biologist who comes out to advise me one what they need and how to get it to them that I pay for. I'll let them have free access to the crop fields and cattle feed bins and won't take out any damage permits. For all that I'll kill the 6 deer that the state says I can and won't submit a bill for one hour of my time or one pound of feed or one bushel of crops they eat.
I would suspect from the way you write you are not a landowner, you may not even believe in private ownership of land. I suspect you don�t like the idea of trespass laws or lease rights either. We all take paths in life my path has always been to be a farmer/landowner. My family and I worked (and still do work) very hard and sacrificed to be where we are today. I just burns me up when people who really don�t have a dog it the fight stand on the sideline and throws rocks at my dog.
If the worst should happen and the state makes it unbearable to do things the way I want to I�ll sell the place take my 10s� of millions and lease a big block in your state and hunt to my hearts content.

uuhh Mickey, have you thought about golf?

West central Tx - there are very few if any free roming deer!! If its private land it's Fenced!!
That's why I love ID, millilions acres to hunt, of free range deer, elk, moose , bear and no $1500- to $10000 fees to hunt!!! HF hunting sucks period!!! Closest thing to Alaska I've found in the lower 48.

[ 05-07-2003, 00:37: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

Mickey 1,

You have no business deciding the ethics of others. This is a very personal issue that should not be legislated. I believe the following to be true about high-fence hunting and every other aspect of our lives: As long as the activities in questions are not illegal, don't harm anyone, and don't infringe upon the rights of another, it is your right to pursue that activity. You do what you think is right, and I'll do the same. I don't have to agree with you, but we should respect each other's opinions enough to live and let live. I don't trust you or anyone else to tell me how to live my life, and I would not presume to tell you how to live yours (within the parameters described above).

Hey, why doesn't he have the right to decide the ethics of others? If something is wrong, should it be legal? I don't think so. Montana voters did ban "hunting" on game farms. No, they didn't make game farms illegal, but they can no longer sell "hunts" on those game farms. And as was already mentioned, no more new game farms will be allowed. The people of Montana did the right thing by voting to get rid of hunting on game farms. Wyoming is one of the smartest states and outlawed them long ago, before they even had a chance to get started. Hopefully, eventually there will be a federal law against game farms, at least the farming of animals that are native to this country. It's wrong, and I guarantee if it is put to a vote, 90% of the people will vote against game farms.

Greg R
Yes they are infringing my rights!! They are not allowing free range of wild game -that they don't own - we all do!!! If I pay for a license to hunt and there are no aminals to hunt becuase they are locked up behind your fence!! That's the infingment.

A bit melodramatic don't you think? Most of the Western states are blessed with lots of public land. I sincerely doubt that you will ever see the day that high fences interfere with your hunting. In some instances, however, they are necessary.

Imagine that you managed the Whitetail on your ranch (15,000 acre, low fence) for 20 years. You have managed to get your buck:doe ration to almost 1:1, you had very few cull bucks, and your management bucks were 8-10 pointers in the 130+ class. Now imagine that some idiot buys the ranch next door, brings out all his friends and shoots all their game, then proceeds to put up a bunch of stands and feeders along your common fence line. Within 2 seasons, your next helicopter survery reveals no deer in a an area over 2 square miles along that fence line. Well, that happened on the ranch where I run my Whitetail hunts, and we were finally forced to high fence most of the back fence line and all of the highway frontage (at a huge cost) because of the poachers on the highway and bad neighbors.

We didn't want to high fence the ranch. We were proud of the bucks coming off this place (biggest was 186+ gross, netted 182 1/8 typical B&C) and don't want to complete the high fence. If we lose the good neighbors on the other 2 sides, we'll have to.

My point is, conditions and circumstances differ across the country. You will determine to some degree (by the people you elect to manage your resources) what is right in your state. In Texas, most hunting land is private. Whether the fences are high or low is irrelevant. You still have to pay to hunt (unless you plan to take advantage of low fenced properties and poach). Otherwise, you must hunt some of our public hunting areas and risk being shot by an idiot, or hunt public areas out west. Either way, high fences are not infringing on your right to do anything.

Greg R
So what your telling me is your upset becuase your neigbor shot all those big fat bucks that you spent your money on feeding? Instead of putting aside habitat to feed the deer themselves.
Obiviously you have enough property to hunt on - I on the other hand wasn't a member of the TX incrowd so I was stuck useing the very little "PUBLIC land there is in TX to hunt. I've paid the price the hunt "High fense" once while I lived there- closet thing to a CANNED hunt I've seen. In them four hours that I hunted I saw no less than 200 dear about 75% bucks with no less then 6 pionts a majority were tens! But I hadn't paid the $50 apiont fee to shoot one just the $100 fee to take a doe. Now on the "public land" I hunted the rest of my time in TX I saw maybe 10 deer-no bucks!!! Now sit there and tell me High fense doesn't limit or remove the deer population from the public lands. Cause you know if you didn't feed the deer they wouldn't stay on you ranch with out that fense !!!

[ 05-10-2003, 00:43: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

We were upset, and I would say justifiably so, that the idiots next door to us were blatantly violating Texas game laws by overshooting everyone in the groups license. They literally shot their place out in no time and resorted to baiting in deer that lived near the fence line.

The South Texas habitat we have is first rate. We manage it well and have a huge resident deer population. We are still not completely high fenced. We have all property adjoining the highway fenced because of wetbacks and poachers, and all the fence line that adjoins the neighbors plus a buffer on each side. We hope not to high fence the whole thing, but we will. Your damn right it makes you mad when you work hard to manage a place, follow a plan, work with biologists, and occasionally put out feed (we only feed in droughts because the brush is so good there), and then have someone else shoot several times their limit of deer and wipe out the deer population on 2 whole sections of your land.

Please note, as I said above, we don't feed all year. The ranch manages the habitat exclusively for the deer. There is no cattle on the ranch, and you won't find better deer habitat anywhere. We only provide a little suplemental feed when it's very dry.

High fences don't limit or remove deer from public land. Poachers, overhunting, and a lack of management are the main culprits, along with the fact that a lot of this land is not prime deer habitat to begin with.

I understand your frustration with not having a decent place to hunt. It's sad, but hunting in Texas is fast becoming a rich man's sport (as it is in most places). That's just the way it is, and slamming other people's hunting style or methods just because they may have deeper pockets doesn't accomplish anything but divide us for the benefit of our common foes. That is also a good reason that "hunters" shouldn't be so careless in throwing out words like "canned hunt". If I completely high fenced that thick, brushy 15,000 acres, the hunting wouldn't be any different than it is now. Regardless, the rest of the world is not going to change for you. You either have to find a way to pay for a good lease, make friends with someone who has some hunting land, or move out west. As you said, ID has plenty of public land. Also, your profile says military. Do you hunt any of the bases? They are a great resource. I know several guys that are Marines here in Texas that do pretty well hunting on one of the bases here in Texas (Maybe it was Camp Bullis?). Anyway, now is the time to be looking for a place to hunt next season.

Well said Greg

When you get right down to it,fish and game departments go after high fence operations because they're a bunch of greedy cocksuckers. They're pissed off that they can't in some way make more money themselves off of these operations. They get just as pissed off when you bring up outfitters paying 5 figures for ranch leases on conventional fenced ranches. They just want a kick back. If they could pass some legislation that gave them a percentage of these leases or a percentage of the revenue that a high fenced operation generates,they'd be telling you all about the benefits of these operations.

When you look into the history of Game departments,they've had some royal fuck ups over the years that make any problems associated with HF operations look small. Wyoming game and fish has killed as many black footed ferrets as they've released with parvo and distemper,yet you never hear about that. Sybille canyon near laramie wyoming is nothing but a high fence operation that doesn't get hunted,but because the GF operate it under the pretense of "research" its ok. The elk and buffalo herds in yellowstone and jackson are nothing but an abortion funded by the state,but its ok for them to do it. Thousands of animals couped in a small area who's population is 5 times over what actual carrying capacity is,is ok as long as the goverment does it. They call it a national park or winter reserve,however when the private sector does it,its called an atrocity and a high fenced mess that must be torn down.

In wyoming you have one high fenced operation in the entire state. Its called the NX bar ranch and you never hear a fuckin' thing about it,because the founder was a Game and Fish commissioner that allocated himself a single permit for the operation. With CWD present in wyoming and the lack of high fence operations in the state. You're left with the disease entering the state from another state or more likely you're getting the disease from yellowstone and a vaiety of other areas in the state that have overpopulation of deer and elk as the result of being artificially supported by man.

I don't support HF operations,hell I don't support paying to hunt period,but these operations aren't nearly as guilty as the operations run by the states.

Not to sound like a dumbass but I read a couple posts that gave reference to high fenced land in the west as vastas some eastern states. How could someone ever make enough money off of that land to compensate for the price of the fence?

heavy varmint
Think about it-they have folk come in from out of state-or rich folk from the big cities they put them up for a week or two for a $1500-2000.
A trophy hunt in west Tx will cost you anywhere from $2000-$5000 multiply that by 200-300 hunters and you make a good some of money.

Greg R
If you knew your neigbor was breaking the law why did you turn him in? I know TX judges love to screw poachers. And the Game wardens love to catch them. I seen more wardens in TX then any other state I've hunted in!! I know all the wardens by first name where I lived cause I'd see them at least every other day while hunting.

We do turn them in and the game wardens are on the them all the time, but they stil keep it up. There are several groups from Louisiana that come in and lease a good ranch, shoot it out, then move on. These guys are effective poachers and have no regard for laws or wildlife management. They see everything as meat or gumbo. Most people know better than to lease to them, but attorneys who manage ranches that are part of estates don't know any better or care. They are just looking for revenue.

This entire argument is silly to me. The entire western US is an Elk, Mule Deer, and Antelope Ranch! The only reason that the wolf reintroduction is so hotly contested in the Rocky Mountain states is it's "negative" impact on Elk, Mule Deer, and possibly Antelope populations! It has nothing, I repeat nothing to do with wolves eating children! If this was a real concern then the much larger wolf populations of the Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan would have eaten all the children by now. The reduction in antlered game species populations results in reduced hunter turn out with an associated reduction in revenue for the States involved, namely Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming. These same states are also against "game ranches" for the same reason. That being a reduction is revenue generated by out of state hunters ! Gentlemen, it is allabout money!

If these states were intelligent they would pass legislation inacting a tax on game taken from private ranches and use this revenue to offset the lost revenue from hunting licenses. This tax could also be used to help end/minimize game ranching by making it too expensive.

I wish that the "outfitters" from Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming would just be honest about their opposition and stop all this bullshit about what is ethical or not! I do not mean to sound as if I am singling out these three states. There are others that are just as guilty! Alaska comes to mind, as do several Canadian provinces. Game has lost habitat this is due to human "overpopulation". Humans reduce game populations much more than any other predator. Should we exterminate the excess people so that we have more elk?

The thing I find most humorous about modern trophy hunting is that it revolves around horns! The ancients were not impressed so much by horned grass eaters. All the trophies of honor to the ancient hunters had to do with tooth and claws of the big predators. I guess these animals must have been too scary for modern hunters since they have largely been exterminated and replaced by the far more docile horned game!

Just my opinion, or asshole whichever you prefer.

Lucs

Rules for canned hunting? hmmm.

I think it should be manditory that any guy in the fenced area with a weapon should be dressed in leotards and a too-too, both pink in color. Depending on the size of the enclosure, you are either required to wear high heeled glass slippers or tap-dancing shoes. The weapon must only be a wand.. you know like the one the good witch had in Wizard of Oz.

Go get em.. but remember: Canned hunts are for fairies.

Gunnut,

I have lived in Idaho for 20 years, but I was raised on a 200,000 acre ranch in the Big Bend of Texas..All those ranches are in access of 50,000 with 3 or 4 strand barb wire fences...

Some of the So.Texas ranches I have hunted are 30,000 to 40,000 acres with wild deer. some of these So. Texas ranches are fenced and some are not...I hunted both types last year and shot my deer on the no HF ranch, not the High fenced ranch..I couldn't see any difference in them as to the hunting or the quality of the hunts..I saw some nice bucks on the HF ranch but never got a shot and on the last day I went to the other ranch and killed a nice big 10 point whitetail as he exploded out of a brushy canyon...

Texas has better Mule Deer hunting than Idaho does and that is a fact...the winter of 92-93 just about did our southern herds in and they just keep shooting them and getting the license money...I am concerned about the deer herds here.

I book Mule Deer hunts on 5 different 100,000 to 300,000 acre ranches near Kermit, Texas and last year we got 3 bucks over 200 B%C points and one that went 233.5 on just one of those ranches. No HF and few are tough enough to hunt these deer, but those diehard mule deer hunters that are willing to put in some very hard days walking in soft sand on a deer track and sleepint on the ground when it gets dark and taking up the track the next day always seem to be rewarded with a monster buck. I have posted these deer on this forum a couple of times.

Texas can give you anykind of hunt you want. All you have to do is choose. the down side is it is all private land, belongs to the people and they care and manage it and sell the deer...It works very well for them and keeps them in the cattle business or off the Government tit.