I'm noticing a few threads about importancy of acurracy. We as a whole (me included) have replied to these threads that accuracy of one MOA or less is very important. I'm addressing this thread to new shooters. The bottom line answer is that 1 MOA is NOT IMPORTANT AT ALL!!!!!

We spend way too much time worrying about getting a rifle that'll shoot 5 shot groups that'll cover with a quarter. In reality, that is useless in the feild. Even 3 shot groups are useless. In my experience in the feild, there's only been once that I was able to shoot at a motionless target more than once. It's safe to say that after that first shot, I was not shooting groups.

The most important thing all new shooters need to consider is this. Does your rifle put one shot from a cold barrel where you aim it? If it does, then you are set for 99.99% of all you will ever encounter in the field.

Example:
I have an old Rem 722 in .243. The old gun shoots damn near 2" groups at the bench. I have a problem with 2" groups. But, I took it on a recent trip as a back up gun. After driving 2500 miles with my rifles in the toolbox of the truck, I rightfully checked zero upon arrival. I sat a gallon milk jug 300 yds. away and fired one shot with it from the door frame of the truck. The water spray from the jug was quite spectacular. After inspecting the jug I found that my shot was within one inch of where I aimed. So my point is,,,I took a 2 MOA bench rifle and was able to make a wonderful feild shot with it. I'm sure if I had shot groups, it would have been 6" or worse. But I have confidence that it'll put the first shot where I want it.

Confidence pretty much controls our performance as human beings.
Example:
We can walk a mile on a 1/4 in crack in the sidewailk. If we step up and a 3" train track, we can walk a pretty far ways, but we tend to wobble more. Now, raise that track 50 ft. in the air and most of us can barely function at all even though we know we can walk in a straight line.

New shooters, just get that first shot confidence and you will be ready.

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In my experience in the feild, there's only been once that I was able to shoot at a motionless target more than once. It's safe to say that after that first shot, I was not shooting groups.

The most important thing all new shooters need to consider is this. Does your rifle put one shot from a cold barrel where you aim it? If it does, then you are set for 99.99% of all you will ever encounter in the field.

Guess you've never had multiple tags...

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After driving 2500 miles with my rifles in the toolbox of the truck, I rightfully checked zero upon arrival. I sat a gallon milk jug 300 yds. away and fired one shot with it from the door frame of the truck.

I respect the game I hunt more than to consider my rifle "ready" after a non-random sample of one re-zeroing shot.

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But I have confidence that it'll put the first shot where I want it.

Confidence pretty much controls our performance as human beings.

No, practice and good equipment controls our performance. Confidence is the result not the cause.

I gotta agree with 9.3x62 here. I never saw a 2" rifle instill as much confidence as a 1/2" gun. I always get multiple tags, just in case something good happens.

The point that is sort of there though is, what will the rifle group with a cold clean barrel for each shot? I had a 284 that was a 2" rifle for 3 shots, but I'll be darned if the thing didn't put the first shots within 3/4" for 5 different range sessions. It was a bite to pull the target each time and put it back up again, but it was revealing. Of course, this was from a thin whippy Micro-medallion that I expected to move shots as it heated up, that's why I tried it.

OK, I'll concede the multiple tag issue. You guys got me on that one.

As far as my confiming zero with one shot,,,,,I do spend many hours at the range shooting, and I can pretty much tell you where each of my rifles will shoot from a cold barrel. And if I take one shot from a rifle that I am very familiar with, and it shoots where I zero'd it, why should I continue shooting it. What's the magic number for you? I suppose I could shoot up a box of shells just to confirm what I already know.

And yes, I feel that I respect the game I'm after as much as anyone.

9.3X62,
Please, I'm waiting to hear how many shots I "should" have fired.

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Originally posted by Jason Doss:
9.3X62,
Please, I'm waiting to hear how many shots I "should" have fired.

At least one, perhaps two, 3-shot groups from a good rest - more if needed. A lot can happen to a rifle during a 2,500 mile trip in a truck or airplane.

I live near sea level and often hunt at 6000+ feet. On numerous occations I have actually had to adjust my scope some when I arrived at a hunt to get it zeroed right where I expected it to be. This cannot, of course, be accomplished with one shot.

I have also, on occasion sighted a load/rifle in relatively warm weather, and then travelled to a very cold area to hunt. This too can cause unexpected point-of-impact issues because of temp/powder burn rates, etc.

In short, here's the way I look at it. If I am going to go through the trouble and expense of travelling 2,500 miles, whether by truck or plane, on a presumably costly out-of-state hunt, the last thing I am going to do is get lax about the zero of my rifle. After all, it is THE tool that will determine the success or failure of the hunt.

I don't think shooting a confirming shot is lax. Altho I usually shoot a three shot group. I have hunted with folks that shot none. And it is an irritation to us anal folks that they brought home the game seemingly just as well as the rest of us.

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Originally posted by iwzbeeman:
I have hunted with folks that shot none. And it is an irritation to us anal folks that they brought home the game seemingly just as well as the rest of us.

Their day will come, I've seen it happen on any number of occasions...

I have been reading the post on accuracy also and I have to get in on this. Jason, you are correct you can very easily kill game with a 2 moa rifle, but I for one feel better about a gun that will shoot sub 1/2 moa groups. that way I know if I miss it was my fault.

I don't usually shoot just one shot at the range but that isn't because I think it takes more than 1 zeroing shot it is because I love the bang and the smell of burnt powder. I really like 10 + shot groups for the same reason.

I took 2 shots this year within 30 seconds of each other(had 2 tags). filled both 1 at 154yds and 1 at 258 yds.

Until a couple of years ago, when my wife got tired of eating deer everyday of the year I might fire 4 or 5 shots at a time. Here in missouri we are blessed with unlimited doe tags and the most I have ever shot at 1 time was 6. 6 shots fired 6 deer killed 6 head shots landed from 10 yds to 186 yds. The head shot thing is a long story, but the lady at the processor told me she would give me a discount on head shot deer so I head shoot all except the bucks.

I don't think one confirming shot is out of line at all.

Jason pointed out his familiarity with his rifle. Knowns where it should be hitting, takes a shot at something similar in size to the vital zone, hits it. He was again confident in his equipment after the traveling.

I have traveled by airline to hunt, and by truck. I handled my gun cases when I drove myself. Baggage handlers had damaged my gun case on the way to my hunt. I shot two shots to confirm zero after the flight. I was confident after two that everything was were I left it. I didn't shoot any when I drove. And this was to the same place for the same kind of hunt two different years.

If I fall or feel for some reason I need to check I do. If there is no reason to doubt, I don't.

I agree that confidence in your ability, and your equipments capability go a long way toward building confidence and ultimately success! I also believe the time to build that confidence is way before leaving on a hunt. Nate

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Originally posted by iwzbeeman:
I have hunted with folks that shot none. And it is an irritation to us anal folks that they brought home the game seemingly just as well as the rest of us.

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Their day will come, I've seen it happen on any number of occasions...

So have I,and you can be sure that I didn't hesitate respond with"I told you so".

All please note that I said that I too had a problem with a two inch gun. You are right, it will not instill as much confidence as a 1/2 inch gun. This thread was aimed towards new shooters. Maybe there's a young teen out there thats got a hand-me-down 340 in 30-30 and reads this forum and begins to feel that he can't take his firearm and make a clean, humane kill because he can't shoot a group less than 4 inches. After reading some of these threads, that young man could lose his confidence and doubt himself when that big boy steps out at 100 yards, even though he knows that the first shot will go exactly where he wants it. That is my point, to encourage others that can't afford a high-dollar tack driver or can only access crappy factory ammo.

Luckily for me, I can afford the search for the perfect gun(s). But that doesn't make me any more lethal than anyone else.

9.3x62
As far as the confirming shot, lets see how righteous you really are. Are you saying that everytime you get in a vehicle to drive to your land (assuming you do some local hunting), you arrive before daylight and fire a couple of 3 shot groups just in case. Have you ever bumped your barrel on the top of the door jam while leaving the house with your gear or bumped a tree while walking through the woods. Did you leave the woods cause something might have happened to your sight alighment. Should anyone who puts their rifles in a case on their four-wheeler and takes off for their stand, shoot a group or three before climbing into said stand. Though slight, each of these example offer a chance of mis-alignment. I know, you're thinking I'm just being ridiculous now. Well you are right! But no more ridiculous than this Holier-than-thou bullshit that you are serving.

Friend,
Maybe I should have added that each of my rifles were in a foam lined case and each case had assorted items stabilizing them to keep them from rocking back and forth and clanging against anything. So I really had no concerns than anything had been knocked out of place. But even though I had no concerns, shit does happen, so I took my one confirming shot and proceeded to take two deer on my trip. And I'll note that they were both one shot kills.

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I know, you're thinking I'm just being ridiculous now. Well you are right! But no more ridiculous than this Holier-than-thou bullshit that you are serving.

I take matters of life and death very seriously when hunting. I simply don't think it is too much trouble to take five minutes to set up a good rest and fire off an extra $3 worth of ammo after travelling across the country. If this makes me pretentious, I can live with that...

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And I'll note that they were both one shot kills.

I am glad things worked out for you, and I sincerely hope that every time you do a one-shot, poor rested zero check that it is in fact a reliable indiactor that nothing meaningful has happened to the rifle. But, as I said before, I've seen it happen. In fact, wtinessing such experiences were what inspired my more careful attention to zero checking, especially when 300-400 yd shots are expected...

Peace Brother, I hope it works out for all of us!!!

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Originally posted by Jason Doss:
Peace Brother, I hope it works out for all of us!!!

I'll second that. And maybe even third it, just for good measure...

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I have an old Rem 722 in .243.

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I sat a gallon milk jug 300 yds.

Compare that to....

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Maybe there's a young teen out there thats got a hand-me-down 340 in 30-30

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that big boy steps out at 100 yards

Like we are saying, if you completely change the variables (crawfish from your initial premise) I guess things might change a little, hmmm. Comparing a 243 with a 30/30? Yes I would certainly check the 300 yard zero of a 30/30. I would still check the 30/30 at 100 yards, with more than one shot, if I traveled any real distance. What is that distance...don't know until I got there. 15 miles, no...1500 certainly.

I have seen some very confident people miss some easy shots for very silly reasons.Confidence oftens becomes overconfidence.

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Originally posted by stubblejumper:
I have seen some very confident people miss some easy shots for very silly reasons.Confidence oftens becomes overconfidence.

This is so true, and a good point to make. Each person is going to decide at some point when enough is enough. Then they live with that choice.

Good judgment comes from experience, and that comes from bad judgment. Nate

I don't think I would take a shot at 300 yards with a .243 OR a .30-30.

A 100-grain 6MM bullet exiting the muzzle at the magic 3K fps number only has 1150 fps of energy at 300 yards. It is also going to be blown roughly 8" off course in only a 10 mph wind. Add shake to that, an unsteady rest, a deer that takes a step, or maybe misaligned stars, and a whitetail shot in the guts with a marginal bullet is a real possibility.

And a 150-grain .30-30 bullet, launched at 2200 fps, is only packing 558 ft-lbs at 300 yards, and is deflected almost 23" in the same 10 mph crosswind. Worse yet...

Nope, I'll get closer and/or pack something bigger.

And last of all, I used to head shoot too; never again. If you ever miscalculate and shoot the bottom jaw off a deer as I did, I suspect you too will stop head shooting. The few extra dollars spent at the packing house are not enough to justify that kind of "iffy" shot for me. The deer deserve better.

Just my honest opinion...

OK, you guys run with it and have fun.

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Originally posted by The Cat Doctor:
I have been reading the post on accuracy also and I have to get in on this. Jason, you are correct you can very easily kill game with a 2 moa rifle, but I for one feel better about a gun that will shoot sub 1/2 moa groups. that way I know if I miss it was my fault.

I don't usually shoot just one shot at the range but that isn't because I think it takes more than 1 zeroing shot it is because I love the bang and the smell of burnt powder. I really like 10 + shot groups for the same reason.

I took 2 shots this year within 30 seconds of each other(had 2 tags). filled both 1 at 154yds and 1 at 258 yds.

Until a couple of years ago, when my wife got tired of eating deer everyday of the year I might fire 4 or 5 shots at a time. Here in missouri we are blessed with unlimited doe tags and the most I have ever shot at 1 time was 6. 6 shots fired 6 deer killed 6 head shots landed from 10 yds to 186 yds. The head shot thing is a long story, but the lady at the processor told me she would give me a discount on head shot deer so I head shoot all except the bucks.

At those ranges a 2" rifle would have served you just as well.

Mr. Doss, perhaps I'm wrong but I perceive you as someone who might be a little bit on the stubborn side. I apologize if I'm wrong. While reading your initial post, and then I think the second one that addresses some "new shooters" or a "teen" I actually began leaning the opposite direction from your position on accuracy overall. I do not want this to come across as a verbal ass whipping but let me just say I repectfully disagree with your position. And I do respect how you drew your conclusions about accuracy and confidence, but in a nut shell it simply tells me that you are willing to settle for mediocrity.

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When small men attempt great enterprises, they always end by reducing them to the level of their own mediocrity.
* Napoleon I

Please allow me to spin this in another direction.

Do you think for a moment that the great Michael Jordon would ever go to his coach and tell him, "Coach, I don't think I need to keep practicing my free throws, every time I throw the first ball, I always sink it." ??

After all, if he sinks it from the free throw line with every first throw, this could imply that he can do the same from any distance according to what your statements say----especially if a teen read your post, as my nephew did.

How about a baseball pitcher? No need to fire a ball to the catcher more than once?

I think it would be a good idea if you actually establish exactly what shooting a group is. I, for one, do shoot groups of 3-4-5 and the bbl. is allowed to be cold before each firing. That is why I'm the guy at the range with 6 or more rifles at a time. I'm guessing you think a group is fired in rapid succession, and for some it is, but I think you may have assumed too much.

If your rifle hits zero from a cold bbl. each time, say at 1 hour intervals or even day to day, then it is not really a 2" rifle, it is indeed a tack driver.

Your confidence was built on tagging game, and for the most part, a 2" rifle will serve most hunters well, but given the choice between a tack driver and a rifle that prints 2" groups, I can assure you where most shooters/hunters will place their bets on a confidence builder.

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The bottom line answer is that 1 MOA is NOT IMPORTANT AT ALL!!!!!

This statement alone is completely subjective. What you should have said is that it is not important to YOU, and then describe why. In fact, I think MOA is CRITICAL for my style of hunting, my investments in hunting. Your message to new shooters or teens is nothing more than a free ticket to mediocrity, and to bring others that may strive for excellence to your level and line of thinking. And I think that is wrong.

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We spend way too much time worrying about getting a rifle that'll shoot 5 shot groups that'll cover with a quarter. In reality, that is useless in the feild.

Again that is your opinion, and not a fact and it is based on your accounts, and it teaches once again that strivng for excellence is a waste of time. I disagree, and I applaud those that wish to accel. Moreover, your blanket statements make no room for those who have the upmost confidence in shooting at longer distances, which I have and that confidence was built on hours upon hours at the reloading bench and range shooting tiny bughole groups.

Your position on accuracy for future shooters would allow for an increase in the risk of missing a shot at game and certainly not hitting it ideally. A 2" rifle at 100 does NOT mean a 4" rifle at 200, and so on. You didn't take into consideration wind drift, humidity, baro pressure, elevation, traveling state to state, etc.

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The most important thing all new shooters need to consider is this. Does your rifle put one shot from a cold barrel where you aim it? If it does, then you are set for 99.99% of all you will ever encounter in the field.

If that is the case with your rifle then it is not a 2" rifle. If it hits where you aim, it is a tack driver.

Ultimately I can see that you and I do not see eye to eye, and for the new shooters and teens out there, I hope, for their sake, they do not listen to you and settle for mediocrity. Most of us actually enjoy shooting, so plugging a few rounds down range isn't a bother.

Your argument is valid in some instances for sure, say shooting out to 100, maybe 200 yards. I said it before, most rifles that group as you say yours does, will serve them well. They'll kill their quarry. But I like to reduce my risk and likelihood of a bullet going astray into the gut by practice, as I have plenty of confidence to shoot beyond 300+ yards.

Doc,
I believe I can honestly say I've never had Napolean quoted to me.

Somewhere in my post, you read that I'm promoting not practicing and not trying to better ones self. Try as I may, I can't find that in my comments at all. Maybe I was looking for it with a "stubborn" eye?

And once again we have a Holier Than Thou statement.You say " That's why you're the guy with 6 or more guns at the range". That's nice, I hope there's also enough room on the rack for the 6 or more guns that I bring regularly. And I do let the barrel cool "enough" between shots, but usually I can't spend all day at the range waiting "1 hour" for a cold barrel before I shoot again. THAT'S WHY I'M THE GUY WITH A CARSEAT IN HIS TRUCK. If you are a guy that can spend all day at the range, I'm jeolous. Does that mean that you shoot better than me, I doubt it. Stubborn,,,,,,,,,,,,,maybe.

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Originally posted by Jason Doss:
Doc,

Somewhere in my post, you read that I'm promoting not practicing and not trying to better ones self. Try as I may, I can't find that in my comments at all. Maybe I was looking for it with a "stubborn" eye?

Then you need to learn to read between the lines. I did just as you wished. I showed your posts to 3 teens, ages 15, 17, and 18, and 2 shooter/hunters that are getting into reloading, all of whom like shooting and hunting. The reactions were unanimous. Your audience came up with a good percentage of my reply. I'm just letting you know where the chips fell.

Yes, I take several rifles to the range because I like for each to have it's own intermission. And I like to use my time wisely, and allow bbls to cool. And I only occupy one table so there's plenty of room.

As to whether or not I shoot better than you, well, I didn't say that, and didn't imply it, but you say that you doubt it. Who's Holier Than Thou now? You came up with this "challenge" not me.

Oh yes, I have 2 carseats.

Thanks Doc,
I believe you made my point beautifully. Your execution was way better than mine.

I think that 90% of the hunters out there do shoot 3 and 5 shot groups in a rather quick manner. I guess this comes from timed benchrest events. But as you said much better than I, a 2" gun is a tack driver if that first shot from a "cold barrel" goes exactly where aimed.

Not a challenge to you personally Doc, just a general statement that your time at the bench does not specifically make you (or I) a better shot than anyone else.

I got an idea from your post. I'm gonna start a thread titled "Whats a group, to you?" just to see what the general concensus is.

That would be a good topic, and I have found that a very well built rifle is overall less likely to throw a flyer whether the bbl is cold or warm.

My Broughton-Richards 270 from Richards Rifle Co. surprised the heck out of me. I had a few break in loads for that rifle. I was shooting some btips, ABs, and a few others. It didn't matter if the bbl was cold, warm, or even "warmer," (I don't like to let them get hot), it never printed bigger than 3/4" even with cleaning b/w shots.