I've been afield lots this season both with bow and not as much with firearm.

Opening morning of bow, 1st thing I see is a coyote at first light. A half hour later see a nice doe that wouldn't come to call because she needed to cross the coyote track.

Every night you hear all the coyotes in the hills at dusk.

My dogs go crazy when they're on their leads and smell or hear the coyotes.

I've heard from reputable hunters that they are finding fresh kills all over.

I had a buddy of mine tell me his father's freind shot a coyote that was tagged.

When the man called the # on the tag the gentleman told him he raises coyotes for insurance companies.

They transplant coyotes into the field for the purpose of cutting down the herd in hope of reducing the # of auto to deer colisions.

I've never seen a tagged coyote but this is the 3rd story about it I've heard this season.

Has anyone else encountered any of these stories or 1st hand.

I'll be off after the holidays to harvest my fair share of coyotes!!!!

Auto insurance companys are hireing coyote breeders to cut down on insurance claims from collisions with deers.

Never heard that one before. I wonder if the insurance companys are doing this illegaly?

While anything is possible I'd take this one with a grain of salt... a very small grain. I've never been in NY other than a trip through the city many years ago. I do have close friends who are life-long residents of Sulivan Co. though. Don't know your laws on such things but I'd suspect such things would be illegal. IF it is I can't imagine anyone telling such a story - especially to a stranger - or advertising it by attaching his Ph.# to the critter. I have heard similar stories about insurance companies - bribbing the game dept. to increase bag limits, paying poachers, etc... While deer collisions are a big expense I can't imagine a major corporation engaging in such actions even if it IS legal!

I clearly remember reading magazine articles as far back as the sixties about the encroachment of coyotes eastward. Back then most were about Maine & the Adarondacs. They were typically referred to as brush wolves or coy-dogs due to speculation they were crossed with (either) wolves or domestic dogs as some may have been. Here in MD the first documented case was a close friend who caught one in a fox trap in 1973. At the time deer were scarce enough that collisions were investigated by the game dept. to make sure it wasn't a cover for poaching! Today you can't go anywhere without seeing a deer carcass on the road yet coyotes are still seldom seen except by trappers... but like I said, anything is possible!anything

quote:

Originally posted by GSP7:
Auto insurance companys are hireing coyote breeders to cut down on insurance claims from collisions with deers.

Never heard that one before. I wonder if the insurance companys are doing this illegaly?

God, I LOVE the internet. Without it we just wouldn't have any modern story telling these days.

Brent

Check the NYDEC website they'll tell you the facts about coyotes in NY..There are 30,000 coyotes in NY .They've even found them in NYC !! Coyotes muliply very well on their own thank you, they don't need help from an insurance co !! Once sentenced to extermination they just laughed and extended their range which now covers most of the USA and into Canada.Here in NY they replace a long gone 'brush wolf' [red wolf I assume].

Sounds like a whole lot of to me.

MG

I would hunt coyotes in NY but for some odd reason it's closed most of the time!! ??

Insurance companys are rolling in money and politicians are greety worthless scumbags that like like there pockets filled with the stuff.

Money used to finance realestate if from insurance companys

When I was hunting in East Durham (Greene County) this year an older lady told me the same thing about the insurance companies. I don't know what to make of it. Could be true. Who knows? The locals were complaining of too many deer causing havoc in and around town.

I live and hunt in NY. For the last 5 years I've been hearing of too many coyotes in the woods. A friend of mine lives in Westchester County (for the last 12 years) about 40 minutes from the city. He tells me all the time that year in and year out he sees more and more coyotes in the woods of Westchester. Westchester stretches to less than 10 miles from the city. They found a coyote in in Central Park!

The bottom line is this: for whatever reason there are more coyotes in the woods, that's for sure. But I'm not so convinced that they're a problem.

The problem is that there are too many does and not enough quality bucks in NY. That has been the problem for many years and the cause of the problem is not coyotes.

Thanks for your responses.

As mmaggi said:
When I was hunting in East Durham (Greene County) this year an older lady told me the same thing about the insurance companies. I don't know what to make of it. Could be true. Who knows?

There must be something to it if another NY resident hunter has heard similar stories.

The coyote season in NY runs from Oct. 1 to March 25 anytime day or night and no bag limits.

The overpopulation of does ia really a huge problem in NY.

Another problem is the taking of the spikes and forkhorns.

In DMU's 3C,3H,3J & 3K you must have 3 points on one side for it to be a legal buck. This is a pilot program that was initiated last year in 1 DMU and has been implemented in 3 others this year.

I peronally let the 1 1/2 year old bucks walk and would rather take a mature doe.

If we in NY never let the young bucks grow we'll never harvest big bucks.

Although there are some good bucks around you just need to scout them and actually hunt them.

Many of the hunters will just take what walks in front of them, not showing any patience or discretion.

Still for whatever reason the coyote population in 2 DMU's (3M & 4F) that I hunt is way out of control and I will hopefully try to even the scales a little immediately after the Deer season is over.

Thanks again for all your responses.

The DEC has really mismanaged things over the years. I'm in 3K and driving this morning I came across a spike.He knew very well he was safe ,He never looked in my direction and walked very slowly across the road !!

I live and hunt in Western New York. I have noticed a couple of interesting trends over the past couple of years. While I didn't used to see or hear very many coyotes for the amount of time I spend afield, the past two years have been dramatically different. In some areas, it seems that every time we put on any kind of a drive, a coyote will be trying to sneak out of it somewhere. The most striking thing I have seen is that last weekend, when hunting with a little snow for the first time this season, I saw probably 3 or 4 times as many coyote tracks as deer tracks. This was the first time I have ever seen anything like this. In an area that used to be loaded with deer, there now seems to be a fraction of the original deer population and loads of coyotes compared to seeing no tracks at all just 5 years ago. I didn't used to think they had much impact on the herd but with hunting pressure decreasing, I have a hard time coming up with any other explanation.

You bet I have! I hunt deer in area 4-o in N.Y., the area had the highest number of deer vehicle accidents in the state, the insurance compaines pressured the D.E.C. into dropping coyotes to thin the herd. Then they had turkeys dropped so the hunters would still have something to hunt. Aren't they considerate? The deer are gone, the turkeys are gone, the coyotes rail the domestic dogs, {better keep rover in sight at night if you want to keep him alive}. If you think this is B.S. hit the DEC website and check out the size of the herd in that area then compare it to the herd size the biologists desire for that area. I'll save you some time, it's 50 % their desired size. Now I'm pissed, again.

Almost forgot, do you know how I know the DEC dropped them???? They where caught dropping them, DUHHHHHHHH. Opps Fred I think we been caught.

I have a place in 3A over in Arkville and yes there are plenty of coyotes and alot less deer then there used to be , but we have noticed that this year there seems to be a slight increase in the deer on our property, along with to many bears.And the coyotes are getting braver they are actually stealing food from the cabin while we are there , so everything now has to be inside. I think they need to go back like they used to and have the coyote season all year long.Not to get off the coyote topic but have any of you guys seen mountain lions or any sign of mountain lions on your property. One of the members of our club says he found lion tracks in the mud this year ( i asked him to try and get pictures) and two other members said they actuallly saw one on there way to town but that was two seasons ago.

The mtn lions kill approx 54 deer per animal per year and untold numbers of fawns and yearlings ,coyotes kill fawns and yearlings also.

I believe the coyotes can kill 30 or more per month when it comes to fawns but still if you think about it for a lion to take 1 deer per week if he decides to stay on your property he can wipe out your deer.I myself untill my knee sergury spend more time in our woods then any other member , and i have seen no sign of a lion in our area thats why i hoped for pictures of those tracks.Eight years ago you could go out and see anywhere from 17-30 does and know your lucky to see five . this year they have seen a couple of spikes two different 6 's and one eight . More bucks then does this year, but what happened to all those does we used to see . No one has taken a doe on our property in about 15 years.

Some very interesting observations from people hunting NY.

Seems there is a coyote problem.

Only thing to do is hunt the coyotes, it's alot of fun I hear.

I'll be trying it the week of Christmas.

Saw 5 doe this morning no bucks.

Might need to take a doe this afternoon for the freezer and hope to muzzleload a buck next week.

Good luck to all.

It's a weird situation at best. There have been two mountain cats previously released in Weiland,seems an elderly woman reported it to the DEC she had spotted them around her garage. The CO'S rebutted it multiple times, "there aren't any Cougar in New York", well she said ok, the next time I see one I'll shoot it for you. DEC's answer....um no don't do that, we released two of them. There is supposedly a program in the works to release more Cougars and a wolf pack into the Bob Marshall wilderness area in the Adirondacks. if anyone thinks we don't have wolves already they're goofy, the numbers are just in control, it appears the lying scum are looking to assault us with the same tactics they've used to sucessfully launch their assault against the folks out west. The show is coming to a head real fast.

Chuck you need to study your geography the BOB IE. The Bob Marshall wilderness is in Montana south of Glacier NP. I been there many times.

They have lions, Grizzys bears, wolves, yotes ect

PDS, I know about the one in Montana, there's also an area in the Adirondacks referred to by the same name. I thought it was funky when I first heard that name applied here. On a map it was in the middle of the Adirondack park as best as I recall, but I've been wrong before.

I seem to see more coyotes each year, but I don't think it's a problem because I hunt them! Think what you want about them, but you must respect them for their adaptability. Unfortunately, I do think that in addition to the impact on the deer, they have also displaced fox in many places.

I have several good friends that work for the DEC and thus have heard every rumor and internet story you can imagine, from insurance companies stocking coyotes, to cougars being released by the DEC, and, most recently, that 15 breeding wolf pairs were released by the DEC into the Brookfield State Forest in Central NY. Just like stories about Bigfoot, the "believers" aren't interested in facts, just in repeating and embellishing these stories. I have yet to see any verified picture, road kill, trailcam picture, track, track casting, scat, hair, confirmed livestock kill, hunter kill or any other proof of any cougar or wolf in NY that could not be attributed to a released "pet". Lots of conspiracy theories, no proof.

Someone who wanted to do the work could file a Freedom of Information Law Request (F.O.I.L.) with the DEC to get any information they had on such allegations. This requires them to disclose any and all documentation based on the request. I'm sure someone will say that they'll just lie or that they'll keep things secret, but you can never please everyone.

(Chuck - I'd be very interested in hearing any FACTS about these "mountain cats" released in Weiland(do you mean Wayland?), the elderly woman's name, the DEC official who allegedly said that they were released, etc.)

That info came from a man I worked with who moved to Wayland. He raised "show rabbits" checkers I think, and had the cats around his pens. He is now an over the road trucker, so it will take some time to contact him. He's split from his wife and working for a different company, but he does come in once in a while, I'll try to catch him or make it known I'm looking for him, when contact is made I'll get the info for you, but I have no idea on a timeframe. I've read but I don't know where on the wolf reintro plan, it wasn't word of mouth, there's also plans for wolves in New Hampshire and Vermont and I'm not sure but I thought Maine also. Huntig the coyotes isn't a bad idea but given their abilities you do realize you'll have no significant impact on them, with all of the cover around here it's almost like hunting ghosts. As far as finding evidence of any sort of cats in the wild arouns here, given population numbers, area, folage/cover, without dogs I'd have to say you're chances are zero to minus 100, maybe slightly less. You are right on "Wayland" in my defense I"ve only been there once.

What the NY dec has actualy states is that there are no wild Mountain lions living in NY that any spotted are probibly illegal pets that got loose. They will also state that they have never released any Mountain lions . They cant or they would be liable if someone got killed by one.As far as shooting them if you do, dont tell the authorities as the eastern cougar is on the endandered list and it can bring a fine of over $1,000.00 and the loss of your NY state hunting licence for life, and probibly about 8 other states.They haven't released wolfs but there are quite a few in the Adirondacks, and i wouldn't be surprised if there were a few in the Catskills, hell its already been proven through DNA that there are many coyotes with red wolf DNA this is why sometimes you will find some very big coyotes.And this is a fact not a rumor, if you want more info you could contact NYS dec and speak with a wildlife biologist on the subject.It reminds me of when DEC said there were no wild boar in the Indian Lake area so the locals went out and shot seven to prove to the DEC. I beleive many get loose from game farms and are able to breed in the wild.Some just got loose recently when a storm caused a tree to bring down some fences upstate somewhere.

Myself I wouldn't fire at a cat unless it was stalking me, not a poacher/no desires for a feline, but I'm sure I wouldn't like one hanging out around the house.

The red wolf DNA, that's interesting and would define how I thought I had a wolf running across an open field three years ago, it was huge, all of the vehicles using the road stopped to watch, just huge. Over the course of the preceeding winter I had come across tracks in the park far too big for coyote, one year later there was a pair using the facility, the tracks where bigger than my Malamutes, as was the dog running across the field, fuzzball weight over 100 lbs.

Probably thirty years ago a friend of my father's had shot a Canadian Timber wolf in the town of Greece, when they dressed her she was loaded with little ones. Looked like a German Shepard to about everyone but he had spent some time in Canada and knew what he was looking at as it walked down a farm lane. Wonder what their status was back then?

Wild boar in N.Y.....first time I ever heard of that, Indian lake no less, wonder what the chances are of them ever estabilishing a large enough presence for a season??? That would be way cool.

I've heard rumblings in the past of re estabilishing Elk, it was done in PA, I've heard I think V. or N.H. but can't ever say I've heard N.Y. mentioned, has anyone heard anything, anything at all.

There is no Elk reintroduction plan for NY. They tried a reintroduction plan proposal with moose, but the locals in the Adirondacks were too concerned with the possibility of increased car-moose collisions, which both sides usually lose. For now, the natural expansion of moose into NY from surrounding states/provinces will be the way the moose populatino increases. Elk can be had at some of the high-fenced places.

There is no confirmed proof or facts to support the idea that there are any wild wolves, cougars/mountain lions or Bigfoot in NY. The search for "Champ", our version of "Nessie" continues, but I wouldn't count on that one either. After this hunting season, I wonder if there are any bucks left in NY.

There is no current provision in the law for the loss of a NY hunting license for life, no matter what you shoot. The maximum in the law is 10 years for certain situations. I checked with DEC on this.

In my searches about cougar I found that VT has found them by doing DNA studies on scat.I.ve talked to a number of people who have say they have personally seen cougar , up close so I suppose the question will always remain. ...As far as Boar, there was someone here in Sullivan Co who was raising them but they escaped .A friend in the area said .there are some people with porkchops in their freezers !!

I have heard that they are thinking about introducing the wolf sometime in the future but wouldn't this be bad for the moose population that they are trying to build up? Doesn't make any sence to me.

The eastern cougar or mountain lions have been regularly seen in NW CT and SW Mass for a while now. I had seen one long ago near Bennington, VT.

Someone commented that if any DEP admitted that there are cougars then some protectionist might get your spot made into a no hunting zone to 'save' them.

A mountain lion was spotted on the farm I hunt on in NW CT this October. Right after that all the deer vanished and in fact the coyotes are gone also.

That's kinda funny, we've had a fair amount of coyotes in the past. There where some hunter's coming from Albany on the weekends running dogs with the collars, maybe four to five years ago, but the last year we've had what appears a coyote reduction, the Red Fox are literally all over the place. I read when coyotes move into an area the fox are about the first to go. Using that as an indicator I can't see how we could have many now, but once every couple of months I'll hear one howl at night, that's about it and then gone again, weird. Had a lot of rabbits this summer too, they're also missing???

Down in southern Columbia county we have more than enough coyotes. Howling in the summer evenings is erie to say the least. Very few fawns seen this deer season as well. Maybe, just maybe DEC is aware that the deer population is coming under control without the aid of human hunters!

Why do I think this may have been the plan from day one?

quote:

The problem is that there are too many does and not enough quality bucks in NY. That has been the problem for many years and the cause of the problem is not coyotes.

Shoot does, let small/young bucks walk. Impose a minimum point/spread restriction to let the young bucks age into trophy class.

Oh yes, shoot every coyote you see. I have been trying to do that for the 5 years I've been hunting the present ranch. We've got lots of does (landowner doesn't understand quality deer/game management as opposed to cattleman's mentality of keeping breeders to have more calves to sell). Haven't made a big dent in the coyote population but since the cottontail population cratered 2 years ago, there's been a noticeable decline in coyote numbers. Lots of game management studies that clearly link coyote numbers to cottontail 7-year (I think) population cycles.

Last year I was educated about how efficient a fox is as a preditor. A red fox took up residence on my property ,in fact he sometimes took his afternoon nap on my lawn. He cleaned out everything !! That includes all mice, chipmumks, squirrels, woodchucks and I guess many birds !!

That is probably what's happened here. There were so many rabbits walking fuzzy was no fun at all for me. In a clearing {any clearing} approx. 30 yards in dia. there would be 3-4 rabbits almost any time of any day, today...I MIGHT see one during a two hour walk, if I do I won't see it tomorrow.

It's funny that the mention of the disappearing rabbit phenemenon cropped up.

Three years ago when my dogs were pups there were rabbits everywhere.

Last year saw a few rabbits.

This year no rabbits.

And the coyotes howl on, every evening.

I hunt 2 locations DMU 3M and 4F which are only about 2 hours apart and I can tell you the cototes are plentiful.

I haven't seen a fox in about 10 years and I spend lots of time in the field.

I will begin my assault on the coyote this weekend.

I would like to wish all of you a happy and healthy Holiday Season.

just found this thread.i also hunt 4f and the adirondacks. in 4f years ago no turkey in my area acouple coyotes then lots of turkeys and then lots of coytes and few turkeys this year saw 6 red fox in one day and two coyotes. now fewer deer. imhop two many coyotes will do my best to help thin them out this year