I suppose this Sierra MK bullet worked on deer.

07 December 2004, 08:27

I dont think a sniper for the Marine Core would have trouble shooting a Goat at 250 yards. I know an old Sniper he used to shoot a 30/06 with a 4x weaver scope and made kills out to 800 + yards with that setup. So the guy that told you he was a sniper is full of it. Now to the comment about 4 inch groups at 1000 yards. I have seen lots of people at the range shoot that size of group at 100 yards with factory ammo. Now those same people also shoot past 200 yards so what is the difference? The problem is there are to many old timers that dont realize it isnt 1920 and we are not shooting round balls anymore. 30 years ago a P-dog shot at 500 yards was a really long shot. Now people are shooting them at over 2000 yards. In fact I think the record for a P-dog is 3125 yards with a 338 Lapua and a 300 grain SMK. I have had people try tell me that you can't even see a deer at 500 yards so how can you shoot one? Then I have them look through a 6.5x20 scope and the story changes. The main thing is if it's within the law and somebody else wants to do it and they take the proper steps to do it. Why does it affect you?

08 December 2004, 07:35

duckster

DKing,

I appreciate your well thought-out and worded reply. You are the first to seem to have some sort of grasp of the implications of a miss or wounded animal. I guess I still struggle with the implication that you can tell by observation alone about a hit or miss. Regardless of your optics quality or strength, observing the nuances of the animal at 1000+ yards can be difficult, especially considering factors like mirage and other weather conditions. I have seen in my 30 years of hunting experience, as I am sure you have also, the animal who takes a hit from a bullet and gives no indication of the hit. It does make it better that you say that you physically go to the site of the animal to confirm that a miss wasn't instead a near miss and a wounded animal. I have seen posts by other long range shooters that only go by observation alone. The other issue is that you must only set up in areas where the visability is great in all directions? Around here, if you are hunting over a meadow or grain field, even at a closer range of 200 or 300 yards, when that animal is into the surrounding cover, they are not visible, regardless of your optics. Do you only set up in areas that are open for several hundred yards in all the directions from the target area? Thanks for the insight.

08 December 2004, 15:40

Madgoat

Your fodder will not change my opinion, that long range shooting is only that...I would not call that person a true hunter. Look at the definition in the dictionary if you don't believe me, there is a big difference between "hunt" and "shoot".

Every year I hear folks talk about that "long shot" they took at an antelope, elk or deer. Most of these folks will also tell you that "they practice twice that far, shoot every day, know their gun, are competition shooters, were in the military, load their own rounds, own a cannon, never miss, yada, yada, yada." When it comes right down to it, most of this is total BS and all they end up doing is throwing lead all over the countryside and wounding/losing animals. There are too many enviornmental/human variables to go wrong, and given the conditions of the place I live (Wyoming) you will NEVER find a day when conditions are perfect (as by your definition) to ever attempt any of these shots.

Just my .02

MG

08 December 2004, 16:44

JBabcock

Madgoat,

I don't know what kind of snipers you are watching, but I'll tell you about one I watched the other day.

2 SWAT Team members were out at the range the other day. (Tacoma Sportsmen's Club). They set up at 100 yards. One was fairly new, the other seemed to be more experienced. I had my Spotting scope setup, and was curious to see what would transpire. The less experienced of the 2 shot decently, but the other put on a clinic.

I had my spotting scope focused on the 100 yard range and he shot, dead center of the bullseye. He was shooting a Remington 700, 308. He shot again, hmmn...

he shot again,

, and again,

.

At that point I asked him where he was shooting, (I felt that I already knew though

). He said right there at the 100 yard mark. I have a B&L Elite spotting scope that is very clear, and very powerful. It was one hole, not much bigger than .308. I'm confident he could have done much the same at 200, or 300 yards, or at any other range required. I didn't catch the brand of scope, but it looked $$$. He said the trick is to squeeze after your heart beats...

I wouldn't want him shooting at me...

08 December 2004, 17:33

DKing

I'm not too interested in changing your opinion but you seem insistent at trying to discredit any "long range" shot while hunting.

Just how far out does long range begin for you, 100 yards, 200 yards, is it dependent upon conditions or is it an absolute figure?? (You seem to like absolute qualifiers.)

08 December 2004, 18:02

dakor

Dking that is a good point about what is the distance where a shot is to far. Hey Madgot I shot a Buck this year with my bow at 18ft. So if I set my distance to anything over 20ft is just to far and if you shoot something farther then 20ft it is not hunting will that work for you? I suppose I am not a good hunter though in your eyes cause I shoot deer sometimes with my rifle out to 500 or 600 yards. Madgoat Let me ask you this since you seem to think anyone that shoots long range is not a good hunter. I have shot 2 deer under 10 ft with my bow on the ground I might add. How many animals have you taken less then 15ft? Oh by the way I live in North Dakota which is a Windier state then the one you live in and we have lots of days were you can shoot long range.

08 December 2004, 18:51

Madgoat

Dakor, when was the last time you shot at a deer with your bow and killed it at 100 yards or more?? How about 80? How is this not similar to shooting a critter at over 600 yards??

By the way, I have killed many a critter within 10 yards.

Apparently you have never been to a small town called Rock River...has the highest average windspeed in the continental US (27mph average)...just off I-80 NW of Laramie. You have no clue what a constant wind is until you have been here. More two thirds of the state is like this too...

Dking,
All I'm saying, is that most folks who claim that they can take these "long shots" are living a pipe dream when they are actually in the field with changing environmental conditions and not on a bench...which is not hunting at this point, just shooting. From what I have witnessed from these types of hunters while I have been in the field, there is a whole lot of shooting, not much killing, and very little following of the shots taken.

I am not going to change your minds either on this topic...so I'll just leave it at that.

MG

08 December 2004, 22:47

LDHunter

DKing,

All I can say is that I've been shooting and hunting long range for quite a few years and you seem to have a better grasp of what it takes to consistently down game at long range than just about anyone I've ever encountered and you explain it quite well too.

I assume that you know Darryl Cassel and Dan Lilja and probably shoot at Williamsport?

Don't waste your time with the likes of MadGoat. He hasn't heard a word you said. He learned everything he needed to know about long range hunting watching his buddies hail Mary every head of game that came within a thousand yards and refuses to be confused with your well thought out and explained facts, techniques, and methods.

Thank you for your posts on this thread. They were both enlightening and educational.

Please continue your pursuit of long range game hunting and your relating of your experiences to those of us that lack the skill, equipment, and/or time to accomplish your markmanship levels and understand what it takes to hunt at long range.

It seems that there's a small core of disbelievers on this forum that feel that anyone with more skill than them must be a complete liar and a horribly unethical hunter/shooter. For those small minded people, noone can possibly operate outside of their comfortable world where everything is explainable, as it relates their narrow experience.

Once again... My hat is off to you SIR!!!

$bob$

Long Range Rifle Group

Long Range Hunting

09 December 2004, 03:16

DKing

MadGoat

Quote:

"Dking,
All I'm saying, is that most folks who claim that they can take these "long shots" are living a pipe dream when they are actually in the field with changing environmental conditions and not on a bench...which is not hunting at this point, just shooting. From what I have witnessed from these types of hunters while I have been in the field, there is a whole lot of shooting, not much killing, and very little following of the shots taken.

I am not going to change your minds either on this topic...so I'll just leave it at that."

There is truth in your statements that many folks claim to be proficient at long range shooting when if fact they are not when judged by a difficult standard. It brings to mind the saying "In the kingdom of the blind: The one-eyed man is King." I'd like to believe that most folks are truthful and when statements are made as to performance levels they are sincere... But I also feel that some of the performance indicators used to establish these individuals as "experts" are regional/group/acquaintance comparisons. I can easily imagine places in the USA where a 200 yard shot onto a 12" target is considered phenomenal long range accuracy and consequently the person performing this feat is the de facto "expert". BUT, sadly for some, this expert classification does not translate to hitting a 12" target at 400 yards and when asked to put their regional known and practiced expertise on the line in a different environment they often perform below expectations.

As I stated previously, my limit for big game animals is 650 yards. To many folks 650 yards is too far for anyone to shoot with any expectation of accuracy AND YET to another group this same 650 yards is not anywhere near the distances considered long range.

So, like everyone else I'm stuck in the position I occupy on the Gaussian distribution curve. I'm judged as a long range shooter by some and as a short range shooter by others, my advocates are the folks most near my current position in the curve. The thing I must stay aware of is that when I change areas/companions (different Gaussian curve) I must be aware of the span and the upper and lower limits of the new curve.

Be aware that not all rifle ranges and competitions use benches, if fact some ranges would not be recognized as ranges if the folks standing in them weren't told it was so. There are many types of competition/practice shooting, some very regimental and distance structured while others are impromptu and random distance(s). Some ranges offer moving target engagement at considerable distances, one that I shoot on has a 12" wide moving target at 300 and 600 yards (and there are folks that can hit these movers every shot on a good day).

I'm not trying to change your opinion, I just trying to make you aware that there are folks on both sides of me, you and everyone else on the marksmanship and hunting capabilities curve(s) (except for those two end guys of course

.

LD Hunter

I had not personally met Darryl Cassel or Dan Lilja but I have had brief conversation with both. I don't shoot benchrest so no Williamsport experience for me. I prefer to shoot more of a field type situation, tactical and F-Class matches are more easily translated to hunting situations for me.

09 December 2004, 07:09

shrike

D-king,
In this writing I do not pass judgement on your character or personal integrity, I have been through this' and want to ask you to seriously think about some of those points.

I have no quarrel with a military sniper taking out an insurgent/terrorist or enemy soldier. A hit in this game is a hit. A gut shot, broken limb, lung or head hit, it is all fine. You try for the kill, but if it results in a wounded enemy, it is regarded one more burden for the enemy.

Small varmints in my view are fair game too,since they die fairly quick from a high power rifle hit.If you want the challenge, fine, go see if you can hit a prairie dog at 800 or 1000+ yards. It is a challenge indeed.

Big game troubles me, for the following reasons.

I have not seen laser range finders on the market that give accurate repeatable readings on deer sized animals much beyond 4oo-500 yards.
After 500 yards trajectories drop so fast that slight miscalculations of the distance are now the cause of excessive vertical drop, meaning broken legs.

On the target range, we know the exact distance to the target board which we dial in, so now we only need to worry about wind drift, and the ups/downs of head/tail winds.
On the game range no such markers with 100 yard intervals.
You have to use your "judgement" to add or subtract to what your laser range finder indicates as the distance to a nearer or farther landmark. You just introduced the by gosh and golly factor.

On the game range there are no windflags for you to give clear clues as to what the wind does way out there, and what the correction really should be.
It is again, the by golly and gosh method, even for very experienced shooters, it is a matter of flawed human judgement. No matter of your" comfort range".

In big game hunting as opposed to military sniping a cripple or gut shot is not an acceptable option.
At long ranges, your wind drift correction or the lack there of without flags to help you, easily can cause a cripple.

After 600-700 yards bullets do not open up sufficiently.
A marginal hit with a "solid" will be a lost animal.
An animal in sudden discomfort or pain even if it does not know where it is coming from will look instinctively for cover. The animal will be for most of the time be very alert and fleet footed would you approach. Most probably a lost animal.

Regardless of your skill level "loooong range" shooting is taking unnecessary chances of wasting good meat and inflicting suffering just to satisfy someone that "he can do it".

I have difficulty agreeing with such a cavalier attitude towards the life of fine big game animals.
They are not enemies/terrs or insurgents or gophers. They do however deserve special consideration from us, by doing all we can in our power to assure a quick, clean death. Yes, accidents do happen, and if they do, we feel bad. We all realise there is an inherent risk for that if you hunt. But that, does not in my view, justify taking cavalier attitudes towards the life of fine big game animals, regardless of your "comfort level" in long range sniping with what amounts to the use of "solids".
Comfort level is not the range of infallability by a long shot( no pun intended).
Remember, military snipers shoot at such long ranges at enemy positions because getting closer is not possible, or just to terrorize the enemy. In other words they "must".
Many of their long range hits are accidental " woundings", but in war that is good too.
None of those reasons apply in hunting big game.
I see the constant use of the word "comfort level", rather then the word " maximum" responsible range.

What then should qualify as maximum responsible range?

In my view: the combination of the following parameters are reasonable.

That distance that you can hold your sights rock steady on a kill zone, a range where a slight mis-calculation of the distance will not result in a broken leg.

A range where even with a fickle wind the bullet will not "accidentally" impact in a non-lethal body part.

That distance where your impact velocity is not marginal, but still more then enough to make the bullet expand properly.

That distance where your laser range finder can still get a reading on the animal proper.

In November when the weather is bitter cold with snow on the ground and you are sitting on a piece of foamie to keep your but from freezing, when the low temperature affects the ballistics of your ammo, and your fingers are a tad numb, the responsible range shrinks due to being slightly impaired in the hold steady department.

09 December 2004, 08:42

Jon A

Quote:

I have not seen laser range finders on the market that give accurate repeatable readings on deer sized animals much beyond 4oo-500 yards.

You need a better rangefinder. People like Dave don't "guess" 600 yd ranges. So this:

Quote:

On the game range no such markers with 100 yard intervals.

You have to use your "judgement" to add or subtract to what your laser range finder indicates as the distance to a nearer or farther landmark. You just introduced the by gosh and golly factor.

Is meaningless. You either know the range or you don't shoot.

Quote:

600-700 yards bullets do not open up sufficiently.

And your evidence for this? There's a reason bullets like Swift A-Frames aren't popular for this application. They're tough to open up and the low BC makes them drop velocity fast giving you a double-whammy. A high BC bullet from an Ultra-mag type round can impact with more velocity at 6-700 yards than a blunt bullet from a standard round at 300 yds. And people tend to use bullets that open up very easily.

Tell me, at exactly what velocity will a Ballistic Tip, SST, V-Max, AccuBond fail to open on an animal? This is where you provide the evidence to back up your statement.

09 December 2004, 10:09

DKing

Quote:

D-king,
In this writing I do not pass judgement on your character or personal integrity, I have been through this' and want to ask you to seriously think about some of those points.

It's good to be able to discuss techniques and tactics in a civil manner, I appreciate the opportunity to do so.

Quote:

I have no quarrel with a military sniper taking out an insurgent/terrorist or enemy soldier. A hit in this game is a hit. A gut shot, broken limb, lung or head hit, it is all fine. You try for the kill, but if it results in a wounded enemy, it is regarded one more burden for the enemy.

I believe "burden for the enemy" this is more of a historical concept and with the current enemies this belief is outdated and perhaps a deadly mistake. Just my opinion and really not the meat of this discussion.

Quote:

Small varmints in my view are fair game too,since they die fairly quick from a high power rifle hit.If you want the challenge, fine, go see if you can hit a prairie dog at 800 or 1000+ yards. It is a challenge indeed.

I agree that sometimes varmints can be a bit of a challenge and are often "used" as recipients for honing one's marksmanship skills.

Quote:

Big game troubles me, for the following reasons.

I have not seen laser range finders on the market that give accurate repeatable readings on deer sized animals much beyond 4oo-500 yards.
After 500 yards trajectories drop so fast that slight miscalculations of the distance are now the cause of excessive vertical drop, meaning broken legs.

Several issues here: Ranging the areas I hunt is often not a one step event although is can be one in the majority of cases. Many times I hunt the same areas and these areas are well known to me, pre-ranged and in some instances mapped. If there is a discrepancy in the range comparisons there is a concerted effort to find the problem and correct it. You are correct in that as the distance to the intended target increases the need for accurate range determination also increases and as you state it is often more difficult to get verifibly correct ranges at the greater distances. These considerations are known and understood and there are checks in the way ranging is performed and verified.

Your excessive drop speculations at ranges beyond 500 yards are dependent upon a number of issues and considerations, they are not a given.

I typically shoot a 308 Win and at my location 600' ASL, and using the standard temp of 59f I have a yardage buffer window at least 30 yard wide in which my round will still be within 3" vertical shift of my intended point-of-aim (energy of ~1400 ft/lbs, 1900 fps). However, if I take that rifle out to where I hunt in Colorado this buffer window will open up to nearer 40 yards (energy increases to ~1850ft/lbs, ~2175fps).

Change to a 300 Win Mag and the 500 yard 3" vertical shift window at 600' ASL, 59f becomes 45 yards wide.

Sorry...gotta run for an hour or so. I'll finish this a little later this evening.

09 December 2004, 12:56

DKing

continued...

Quote:

On the target range, we know the exact distance to the target board which we dial in, so now we only need to worry about wind drift, and the ups/downs of head/tail winds.
On the game range no such markers with 100 yard intervals.
You have to use your "judgement" to add or subtract to what your laser range finder indicates as the distance to a nearer or farther landmark. You just introduced the by gosh and golly factor.

As I previously mentioned, there are ranges other than those marked at convenient intervals, the UnKnown Distance (UKD) ranges. These are the ranges I spend the majority of my time on, they're quite similar to hunting and great for data verification. I'll link to a picture of one such range:

There are methods to verify or considerably reduce errors associated with laser rangefinders. There is initially a simple collimation test to check/find the "hot spot" on the laser rangefinder, the area where the laser beam actual lands. This is fairly simple as it's simply a bracket test. Stand in a area where there is a distance large object to range, a barn works well. Ensure you have a vertical and horizontal obstruction at a fair distance from you but between you and the barn. Range the barn and wait for the "scan" mode to engage (if there is no "scan" mode then simple repeatedly press the range button) and move the laser toward the vertical (or horizontal) obstruction until the laser changes reading... this is the point where the edge of the laser is on the nearer object. Repeat this test but approach the vertical obstruction from the other side, also repeat this for horizontal. Within a short while you will know if the "crosshairs" in the laser match the actual laser beam collimation and if not you'll have a very good idea just where the real "hot spot" is located.

Another in the field verification is to range the desired critter or object and then range to each side of the object. If you know the distance between the object and the "background" are different and yet you get the same distance reading on both you have a problem.

The introduction and limits of "fuzzy" data is the option of the shooter... there is always the option to not shoot. This seems to be a point completely ignored by many folks that object to long range hunting. We shoot when we expect to hit the intended mark, there is often considerable experience in the area of long range shooting and the introduction of unknowns isn't something lightly dismissed. WE MUST KNOW THE RANGE to the intended target to within an acceptable value, if the range is not known the possibility of a hit gets pretty skinny at long range.

Quote:

On the game range there are no windflags for you to give clear clues as to what the wind does way out there, and what the correction really should be.
It is again, the by golly and gosh method, even for very experienced shooters, it is a matter of flawed human judgement. No matter of your" comfort range".

Even with wind flags there is often no clear quantitative clues. Ranges often use non-standard wind flags and support poles of differing widths where the backdraft/eddy interfere with the flag's freedom of movement. Flags are a clue but are quite often different from range to range.
There are indicators other than range flags, trees, grass, bushes, hair, birds, weeds, debris, etc, etc. If you think in this manner it might become easier... we are trying to find a way to make the shot as called... other folks continue to point out reasons why it can't be done.

We very often know when it can't be done and we don't shoot if we're going to miss.

Perhaps an analogy (poor as it may be).

I know that I can open the door on my truck and step out at any time I desire. I personally choose to step out when it's stopped just like nearly everyone, and yet folks continually remind me that I could be confused and just as easily step out while it's still moving. (Okay, so I'm not too good at analogies but I tried. )

Quote:

In big game hunting as opposed to military sniping a cripple or gut shot is not an acceptable option.
At long ranges, your wind drift correction or the lack there of without flags to help you, easily can cause a cripple.

Only if we choose to shoot in conditions outside our comfort/experience range. At 600'ASL, 59f & 500 yards a full-value 3mph wind will move my 308 Win bullet about 5". If I completely disregard this 3mph wind or I'm off on a wind call by this 3mph amount I'll be 5" in error. If this same wind is a half-value wind we're only talking about a 2.5" deviation IF I'm completely wrong about the wind. Take this to where I hunt in Colorado and the full-value 3 mph wind drift is only 3.5".

Quote:

After 600-700 yards bullets do not open up sufficiently.
A marginal hit with a "solid" will be a lost animal.

Here's a picture of a recovered Nosler Ballistic Tip, it struck the critter at 905 yards. (This was a few years back and I have since agreed to limit my shots to 650 yards to appease other "hunters".)

Quote:

An animal in sudden discomfort or pain even if it does not know where it is coming from will look instinctively for cover. The animal will be for most of the time be very alert and fleet footed would you approach. Most probably a lost animal.

This has not been my experience.

I have many times seen animals simple stand still and die in a few second without moving away from the spot where they were first hit. I have seen them stop grazing when struck then go straight away back to grazing only to fall dead a short while later. I have seen deer turn and lick the bleeding wound and I've seen other deer come to the injured deer and lick it's wound. I'm sure you have been wounded/injured animals stand and lick their wounds... why haven't these instinctively sought cover?
The elk I shot many years back stood still and began urinating after the bullet struck it...it didn't run.

Quote:

Regardless of your skill level "loooong range" shooting is taking unnecessary chances of wasting good meat and inflicting suffering just to satisfy someone that "he can do it".

The "chances" are minimal and it's not about "he can do it". It's about using skills attained to accomplish a goal. My marksmanship training/practice is no different than someone that practices at 200 yards. We each have a set of skills, each have a set of boundary conditions, each accept some degree of risk, each feel we are capable of making the shots we take... that's why we practice and learn.

Quote:

I have difficulty agreeing with such a cavalier attitude towards the life of fine big game animals.

When you shoot them do they die??? The same thing happens when I shoot them. Your's is not a cavalier attitude, why is mine. I believe mine is suspect because you don't understand, you may believe my shot to kill ratio is poor and this belief is probably based only on your misconceptions. (We're working on fixing that right now.)

Quote:

They are not enemies/terrs or insurgents or gophers. They do however deserve special consideration from us, by doing all we can in our power to assure a quick, clean death.

Some folks believe that a big game animal struck stone-cold dead completely unaware of danger has suffered far less than one that's been startled or chased and then shot. I believe that shock is a merciful thing and that when a living being is confronted with something outside it's realm of experience there is a brief period of "nothingness", if this unrecognizable event is a mortal wound this living being goes into shock and often dies a completely painless death.

Quote:

Yes, accidents do happen, and if they do, we feel bad. We all realise there is an inherent risk for that if you hunt. But that, does not in my view, justify taking cavalier attitudes towards the life of fine big game animals, regardless of your "comfort level" in long range sniping with what amounts to the use of "solids".
Comfort level is not the range of infallability by a long shot( no pun intended).
Remember, military snipers shoot at such long ranges at enemy positions because getting closer is not possible, or just to terrorize the enemy. In other words they "must".
Many of their long range hits are accidental " woundings", but in war that is good too.
None of those reasons apply in hunting big game.

Quote:

I see the constant use of the word "comfort level", rather then the word " maximum" responsible range.

What then should qualify as maximum responsible range?

In my view: the combination of the following parameters are reasonable.

That distance that you can hold your sights rock steady on a kill zone, a range where a slight mis-calculation of the distance will not result in a broken leg.

A range where even with a fickle wind the bullet will not "accidentally" impact in a non-lethal body part.

That distance where your impact velocity is not marginal, but still more then enough to make the bullet expand properly.

That distance where your laser range finder can still get a reading on the animal proper.

In November when the weather is bitter cold with snow on the ground and you are sitting on a piece of foamie to keep your but from freezing, when the low temperature affects the ballistics of your ammo, and your fingers are a tad numb, the responsible range shrinks due to being slightly impaired in the hold steady department.

Damn... I should have just jumped down here and saved my self some trouble but I'm sure there are valuable tidbits and necessary info in what I've already written.

What you just defined as "maximum" responsible range is exactly what I've been discussing.

Check and test the laser, know the limitation of the kill zone size in comparison to wind and range variations. Shoot only when there's a good solid rest, use bullets that are proven to work.

Can you see that we're in agreement? I just shoot a little further than you are accustomed to accepting as normal.