The closer the better

This kind of stuff really gets under my skin. I can honestly say in my time spent hunting and buying the necessary gear, a computer was not in my pack. I really have a hard time seeing this type of situation as fair chase, and furthermore, humane. If this guy wants to shoot at such long ranges, go and shoot prairie dogs or something, where if you don't make a perfect shot, the animal doesn't end up gimped. At a distance of 1000+ yards, I wonder if he could even make a follow up shot on a wounded deer. Do us all a favor "Eddie Bauer", stay home.

Sounds like a great hunt and a great shot. Looks like a very nice buck.

Well, I guess I'd say this, if I had that gun, that confidence in it, and that deer in the sights, I'd probably take the shot too.

But, I'm not him.

Git as close as you can, then git 10 yards closer!

trust me. I do.

I only have true confidence when I'm within 200 yards.

Yes the computer part and humidty, temp. Wow you talk about overkill when I'm hunting that is the last thing on my mind.

To each his own, but frankly I don't see any reason to boast. A friend of mine is a world class long range shooter. And I know that he has banged some deer at ultra long range. Doesn't do much for me though, might as well use a SAM.

Take whatever shot you are comfortable with, at any range that you can.

If you have the gear and the skills to match, then do whatever is ethical and legal.

I don't judge others by thier methods.

I am not sure how to judge this.



Certainly a fine buck. Certainly a better than fine shot.



How far is too far? How do you determine that?



You can with the right equipment, practice at long ranges. This hunter practiced @ 1250 yds. You can determine your correct sighting. You can determine the most accurate load.

You can with practice, dope the wind.



The only thing you cannot test; the only thing you cannot practice on the range; the only thing that kills the game: is the bullet.



The 220 Grain MK killed @ 1000 yds. Would it kill at 1250? or 1450? or 1650. You can only determine that by firing at game and "Failing".



Of course any hunter could confront a "bullet failure" on game at any range. But the information on bullets that work (ie: kill), are legion at any sane ranges, up to 500 yds or so.



Beyond that, it is really trial and error. The MK was chosen not as much for it's killing ability, as for it's accuracy at long ranges. That is the first pre-requsite, to shooting at those ranges, not in it's terminal effects.



If it indeed works, then fine. But at what range is it not fine? 1100 yds. 1200, 1300, et al.



One can only detimine that by shooting and failing to kill. Any follow up on wounded game is absurd at those ranges, short of using a vehicle to run down the wounded animal.



I am not sure how to assess match shooting @ big game animals.



In my mind is not a question of ethics, rather one of judgement.



So "LR match hunters", how far is too far???



No flames, just would like a polite reply.



Thanks,



Bob

AnotherAZWriter

I agree with you completely, that's why I said it isn't anything to boast about, just lucky is all. I wonder how many deer walk away, and then die an agonizing death, because they were gut shot?

Like I said earlier, you might as well use a SAM, a "Surface to Air Missle."

Well, whatever happened, it doesn't look like it was too pretty, or quick. The deer does not appear to be field-dressed, yet it was obviously covered in blood, which was apparently addressed with a cursory washing-down prior to the photo-op. I don't know about y'all, but I have never had to hose off an animal to make it presentable for a picture.

He probably could have left the camo trousers at home, don't you think?

Final question: Do you put a black or a white spotter in the hole when marking a shot on deer???

RSY

I would suspect that with the rolled up sleave and bloody left hand that he may have field dressed the critter and moved it for the picture. Lots of blood on the tail and belly. Some folks can make a real mess of field dressing a deer, others are fairly neat about it.

Looks like a cleaned up and posed picture of a deer shot by a hunter.

Well, I guess I'm kinda old school, I like to hunt I've got a fair amount of heads on the wall, although I do like to shoot, but like to limit that to the range. Range finders are fine, but I do not own one. As far as computers for hunting, thats not my deal either and I sell very high tech process computers and advanced application software, so I can honestly say my technical ability is somewhat above a chicken.

I can't knock anybody's shooting ability with or without all the tech stuff to make a shoot at that range, but I have a lot more respect for a man that makes a stalk and 100 yd off hand shot and a clean kill.

First off I probably couldnt make a 1000 yd shoot on a bet, but I'll just stay home and watch NASCAR before I start making 1000 yd shoots on game animals. Sniper rifles for target shooting is fine, just not sure sniper rifles and the tech stuff is good for big game hunting as a sport, but I might be wrong, but then again I just can't understand getting futher away to make a shot, just don't fit with my cowboy logic.

DKing:

I know you are a pretty devoted LR shooter,and so am I. And I know you have seen my "1mph bullet drift" comments before, but you never address it.

Why not?

AnotherAZWriter



No offense meant by the non-reply but I was hoping to not get into this thread. I was watching to see where the thread would go and I didn't want to influence it, an opportunity to learn by observation. Turned into a Schrodinger's Cat sort of deal I guess. I'll go back and look at that post and reply...



Thanks... Nice to know someone's looking around for me.

AnotherAZWriter

On the "1 mph bullet drift" issue.


There's not enough posted information in the original "initial" post to get ballistic "facts", I'll make a few guesses so things will fit the numbers he did supply.

21.75MOA of elevation needed to get to 1146 yards at 46 degrees. There are a few other post at LongRangeHunting (LRH) that lead me to believe the Defensive Edge rifle was "zeroed" at 300 yards. Looking at the reloading pages here at AR I see a "hot" load for the 300 RUM (26" barrel) with a 220 SierraMK is about 3100fps so I generously added 150fps to that for the rifle in question (30" custom barrel). I find that Reggear outfitters are homed in Orofino, ID and elevation in that area can support 3,000ft ASL.

If I pump a BC of .624 for the 220 MK, 3,000' ASL, 42 degrees, 0 incline angle, zero range 300 yards I get a required 21.9 MOA requirement for 1150 yards (he states 1146 yards). With this data, 21.9 vs 21.75 I figure I'm close enough to guess at some of your number questions. (Note: I couldn't find what I'd consider a reasonable elevation or projectile speed when using a 100 yard zero and that's what prompted a re-read of threads at LRH and the 300 yard zero figure.)

You stated "Forget about the ethics; just consider these facts. Let's assume our hero is shooting that 220 MK at 3000 fps and he has the range dialed in exactly. Let's assume he can group his shots into 4 inches at that range (very accurate shooting). Because the vital area is 10 inches, that gives him 3 inches on top, and 3 inches on the bottom to play with. It also means 3 inches of error on either side horizontally."

The post were discussing states "He was able to achieve groups 6-8 inches at 1000 yards, but more importantly was able to consistently get first shot hits at 1000 + on vital zone sized targets in good conditions." He states a confirmed fire larger group size than you speculate but makes no statement as to vital area size. However, he does state consistent first shot hits on vital zone sized targets at distances in the range we're discussing. Personally I'd be a little more generous on the vitals size and probably go for 12" vice your 10".


You state: A 1 mph wind blows this guys bullet 7.5 inches, more than twice the horizontal error.

Your 1 mph wind error decreased a bit for me as I used different values than you. The drift for a FULL VALUE 1 mph became 6.7 inches vs your 7.5, hardly enough difference to worry about but it's what I derived. IF the 1 mph wind were at 2,4,8 or 10 o'clock instead of 3 or 9 o'clock the drift is only 5.5 inches, if the wind were from 1,5,7 or 11 o'clock the drift is only 3.1 inches.

You state "A 12 fps deviation in muzzle velocity means he has a good chance of missing vertically. Does he know his MV for various temps?

For my input data a 12 mph projectile speed change equals about 2", at 3238 the theoretical impact will be 2" lower than at 3250 and at 3262 we'll see an impact 2" higher. From 3238 to 3262 (theoretically) we'd see a 4" max vertical spread shift in your estimated 4" groups. The groups would still be the same size, just worst case shift 2" down or up on the critter. (In actuality the real speed deviation is already in the reported, actually verified (as stated by the original poster) group size so we'd see no shift of that 6" to 8" group.) It should be noted that your theorized 4" group with the added 2" up and down possibility seems to coincide with the reported fired group data... a coincidence?? Maybe you're pretty good at this!


You state "The time of flight for the bullet is 1.5 seconds." I of course shortened that just a tiny bit with the 3250fps guess.

You state, "So forget about the ethics and everything else, this guy was pretty damn lucky."


I guess it pretty much all boils down to practice and knowing what's possible at the moment in the given conditions. I personally don't shoot big game beyond 650 yards (but that's not always been the case). The fella states the hunter was practiced and I'd guess the conditions were favorable and within the shooter's capabilities (Favorable conditions and practiced distances are two of the greatest consideration for responsible long range hunting.)

There are certainly many ways to make the situation fail, wind being one of the largest contributors.

Your 1MPH situation is not unknown or dismissed, it's just another variable that is considered and actually in place during periods of marksmanship practice at long range. If it were easy everyone could do it first try (and all subsequent trys), it takes experience and practice to be good at long range precision shooting.


"Where the practice goes the performance follows!"


(Did I answer the question or skirt it??)

I think some forget the big picture so I will spell it out. It is more of a challenge to shoot (XYZ) Game at Long Range then it is to stalk to 200 yards. Anyone with half a brain can stalk to 200 yards of an animal. I have stalked many whitetails to 20 and 30 yards with my bow. The challenge of making the shot is what they want because it is just that more of a challenge. Now for carring a pocket pc around that is not my cup of tea but if the guy pulling the trigger wants to use one that is his choice. I use a range finder and spend hours Memorizing charts and practicing.

RSY

Quote:

---

"Just how did he KNOW what the conditions were downrange without having flags out??? ANSWER: He didn't know, thus making any and every shot at that range in the field a "Hail Mary."

---

My guess is that unlike you he probably has some experience in the area of this discussion. He apparently did know the downrange conditions, and he apparently practiced with his rifle and ammo. He has a deer as a result of his hunt and it's possibly left you with high blood pressure.



Why is it that many folks think accurate fire can only be done in the presence of range flags and on a Known Distance (KD) range??? Range flags are a fine indicator but what's wrong with using natural items: trees, weeds, bushes, smoke, birds, insects, the fur on the critter(s), etc, etc?? UKD shooting is not so much different than KD range, a little practice with a rangefinder and a LOT more initial trajectory verification and all those UKD shots are KD field shots.

Bullets have little difficulty traveling thousands of yards and they do so in short order (relatively). It it too much of a leap for folks to extend the range at which a marksman can hit a target with a bullet. Folks have little trouble hitting the mark at 100 yards (lots of ranges offer this distance so there's probably lots of these shooters), 200 yards (fewer ranges for this distance and probably fewer practiced shooters), 300 yards (you've caught on by now), 500, 600, 1000, 1500... Do folks believe that at some random point the bullet decides that it doesn't want to follow a predictible path and just wanders about aimlessly then falls to the ground exhausted?? It may very well be that they do this but it's a whole lot further downrange than most will ever intentionally shoot. If a marksman can practice at a given range for a while it becomes possible to direct fire at that range with significant precision...

(It's rather remarkable to see the expression on a fellas face the first time he hits a 6 foot x 6 foot target at a 1000 yard range... they're overjoyed as a rule... "I can't believe I did it!!"... Give them a year after they've caught "the 1000 yard bug" and they're often a little upset when they don't keep 20 rounds within 5 inches of where they aim and damn upset if any are further than 10 inches from point of aim. (KD range of course!!!) )

Yes Dave when I first started shooting at longer range I was amazed at hitting gallon jugs at 300. Now that I have been shooting at a lot longer ranges pop cans on first shot at 400 and 500 yards are done on a regular basics p dogs too.

What I find is most people hardly shoot most of them hardly shoot past a 100 a few take a few shots at 300. So when a person trains equips him self to make shots 3 times that far. the avg hunter/shooter finds it hard to belive.

But when I take a normal shooter out with one on my accurate rifles give them some coaching and let them shoot at 500 yards and They see a fist size group the first time. They are amazed.

Add a few more thousand rounds down range at those distances they are shooting groups less the half the size of that. Just takes training and good equipment to do it.

Weather I am hunting deer with my bow (30yard) limit or my heavy barrel real accurate rifle (700 yard)self impose limit or something in between. I find the hunting not much differant. IT IS ALL FUN.

I do not 2nd guess others fun as long as it is legal.
I can really apperciate the long shot knowing what it takes. I also apperciate the close stalk and shot knowing what it takes.

So to all of you who don't like shooting deer way out don't.

BUT GET A LIFE ABOUT TELLING OTHERS WHAT TO DO.

P DOG

Yeah What P Dog said!!!

If he would have shot that deer with a laser that was mounted on a satelite from space, would that make it any more sporting??
If he would have crippled the deer...then what??

He probably would have shot an another, and another, and another until finally (as luck would have it) one fell down.

MG

And the hunter who wounds one at 50,100,200 ect do they stop hunting for Ever.

I sure you are the perfect hunter and shot and never wounded a game animal.

There are plenty of those out there I have found many dead deer in the woods over the last 40 some years of hunting that were never recoved by the shooter. This is in a area the avg shot is most likey 50 yards.

Your is just a old agrument.

GET A LIFE.

Dave:

Your commments about the wind angle are right on target, something I didn't think about should have. But I think you missed my point about temperature.

If the guy shoots a group of 4 inches at that range, and the vital area is 10 inches, then you only have 3 inches of vertical "play" or "slop" before you risk missing. Of course, the odds of any one bullet being at the top of the group are small, but on a warm day, those "top" bullets are going to hit even higher, and you don't have 5 inches or even 6 - only 3-4, assuming you can shoot 4 inch groups. Make those groups 8 inches and you only have an inch or two.

At least you approach the dialog with rational arguments and I enjoy your comments. I will be out shooting tomorrow...

There is a big difference between being able to see the critter you shot at with the naked eye and losing it, and the one you could only see through optics...and watch it run off with no idea.

I'm sure, many of those deer that you found in the woods, the hunter never even tried to look for because he was so damn far away he couldn't tell that he had hit it or not and just "assumed" that he had missed.

Long range shooting is just that...

MG

The big differants of losing a deer you shot up close and one you shot far way is what. A lost animial still a lost animial.

Madgoat



Pessimistic speculation(s) based on little actual experience is of no consequence, it's just another opinion that counts for little or nothing.

I have watched enough poor sportsman shoot at antelope and elk at long ranges...often then never knew they blew a leg off, or even hit the animal for that matter!!

Then they rarely ever go and check for sign after a shot...not too far to shoot, but too far to walk??

That is the problem with most folks who shoot...they believe their skills are better than they actually are.

Some hunters eh??

MG

You'd think so, although I've seen some situations where the setup was pretty good for a longish shot, and not nearly as good for the shorter shots in between. Other places where there was simply no cover to be had ( and frequently walk away from those shots if I don't like the conditions ).

My role model is a backhoe operator, since gone to his reward, who could spot game from very long distances and then shorten it up to get the shot he wanted. Things seem to work out best for me when the distance can be made with the reticle in my scope, and doesn't need a laser rangefinder.

Tom

I don't give a rat's how much time you spend at the range, shooting steel off a bench with your laser rangefinder. When you get in the woods, Murphy's Law prevails. Long range shots (in my own opinion) are just that...proves nothing about an individuals ability to actually hunt.

Just this year while helping a rancher buddy of mine put up hay, I watched one of his hunters who is a Marine Corp. sniper shoot 5 times at an antelope...blew two legs off, then finally put it down. He was proned out and the range was 250 yards. I'm sure with this guy's training, he was better equipped and trained at long range shooting than the average joe. Heck, at this range he still couldn't tell if it was a buck or a doe that he was shooting at!!

All I'm saying, is that when you are taking something's life, you owe it to that game animal to do it as quickly and humanely as possible. Blowing limbs off and chasing animals to kingdom come because you're taking long shots is anything but responsible. Margin of error at these distances are too large for 90% of hunters...and even Marine snipers!!

MG

I think he must still hunt with a open sited 30-30 carbine if 250 yards is long range. Or is own skill level is so poor he can not understand how any body could hit THAT FAR OUT LOL.

Your hear real life story of miltary snipers hitting the bad guys way out and this one can't kill a animal at 250 yards right.