Limited to the low pressure factory ammo, what game is reasonable with the .45-70? Deer is obviously ok (within range), but how about elk?

The question came to mind in reading Boddington's Shots at Big Game. He lists the 405 gn factory loads (that's about 1350 fps) as good for elk to 100 yd, and even grizzly (but, please, let's not start another dangerous game thread for this cartridge). Whelen, early in the 1900's, wrote the .45-70 was noticeably more effective than the early smokeless rounds, such as the .30-40 (but 30 caliber bullets have improved since then).

On the other hand, I gather that at least one experienced hunter here (ie. Atkinson) feels the standard .45-70 to be quite lacking all around.

I'd like to solicit more opinions on the effectiveness of factory .45-70 at ranges under 100 yds. Also, any speculation as to why the round was displaced in the hunting fields about 100 years ago is wanted -- was it trajectory or terminal effectiveness?

If your staying within 100 yds it should take anything in North America. I have only hunted whitetail so far with mine but it does make a statement when the deer flips over after being shot.

All will work well on deer.For someting bigger such as elk the Winchester 300 Partition or the 400s.Trajectory was the biggest problem.The 300s drop 5" at150 yds and about 12" at 200 [when sighted in at 100].

If American Bison fell to the 45-70 with black powder loads, the smokeless 405 gr. factory loads of today will do the same. I would use the 45-70 405 gr. factory loads from deer to moose and black bear, as long as shots remain in the 100 to 125 yard range. Now Grizzlies, I don't think a factory round would not have the bunch I wanted to get the job done quickly.

Since you say low pressure rounds,I assume you have an old 45-70.Many people in the last year have shot Bison/Elk and Bear with Winchesters factory- 300 grain Partition Gold.Infact Larry Weishuhn swears by them on Bears and has shot a few.

Last year alone there were several Elk shot with one shot kills with reloads of the 300 grain BarnesXFN and 350 North Forks.Times have changed for the modern 45-70 and 450 Marlin with 300 grain bullets over 2400 fps depending on barrel lengths..

I really don't understand the hate or whatever some on this forum have for the 45-70 unless its back in the old days shootin factory bullets at 1300 fps now the same 400 grain bullet is 2,000 fps or a Barnes "O" kodiak or Swift A-Frame with North Forks and a bunch of excellant bullets that redefine the 45-70 in my opinion.All the Bison and Elk in the last year with the good bullets available and exits on 500+ lbs bears after going through both shoulders breaking bone and exiting(The 300 grain Barnes XFN).

Just my opinion with experience on game like Elk with the 45-70.

Jayco

Practifcallyany factory ammo can be considered low pressur with the exception of a few custom loaded rounds. PMC loads the 350 grain bullet to around 2000 fps andI believe this isloaded to 28000 CUP or is it PSI? Either way it is SAAMI's limit which is low pressure compared to most modern rounds yet provides more reach and energy. I would use this load on anything in North America at reasonable ranges.

PMC 350 grain +p ammo for the 45-70 is 37,000 PSI.

Jayco

It's always about distance & shot placement. I would hunt anything but big bears w/ a std. vel. factory load out to 100yds, which is about as far as I can shoot w/ open sights anyway.

I shot a bison (~1,000 lbs) with a .45-70 with Winchester 300 gr Partition Golds. The key is shot placement: I hit it right behind the ear and it dropped.

Boddington's book that you reference states that elk are tenacious and aren't impressed by anything but shot placement.

So, if you know the anatomy very well, and know where to hold at different ranges, the 45-70 should be ok.

Hunter308

For the most part, I'd hate to see anyone hunt anything much over backlot whitetails with the old 405 gr. factory rounds in 45-70. They are designed for the weaker actions of the Springfield trapdoors and 81 Marlins. The 405 grain bullets I assume from all manufacturers work better at +1650 fps and I believe that is within a pressure regime of 28,000 psi. The 405 factory loads duplicate the old blackpowder velocities quoted as 1320 fps. I think they are more likely at 1100 fps. We're talking tweaking handloads here that are suitable for 86 Winchesters, new 95 Marlins and Ruger #1's. All three of these rifles are capable of much stouter loads, but that's a baseline. On the other shoe are the factory rounds loaded with 300 - 350 gr bullets. I believe they are better designed and with tougher jackets suitable for perforating things that might have a major attitude. Those bullets in the 28000 psi regime fly out of 26" barrels at 1750 to 2000 fps. If you don't reload or know someone who will work up a load for you, stick with the Nosler, Barnes or Hornady 300 grainers and go hunting. I'm an old Elmer Kieth fan, so I'd load up a Ruger #1 or Siamese mauser to as close to .458 as I could handle and go look for a gunfight with a big bull elk here in Montana or any bear on the planet.

I just bought a brand new Ruger #1 in 45-70.The stock split on the 3rd shot .Its at the factory being repaired now .After reading all i can about the 45-70 here on AR.Iam going to shoot nothing but nosler 300gr,supremes and pmc 350gr. for factory ammo and reloads as hot as i can stand with swifts,noslers,woodleighs,etc.
I want to try everything in the little rifle.
One thing i have gathered so far,the 45-70 is gonna be one fun gun !I cant wait to get mine back....
I thought about all the shots on game thru the years and hunting on hardwood ridges and river bottoms,most of my average shots have been 50yards !Perfect for the 45-70!

quote:

Originally posted by blackbearhunter:
reloads as hot as i can stand with swifts,noslers,woodleighs,etc.
:

You need the depleted uranium 700 grain hard cast bullets loaded to 900 fps so you can shoot through two elephants end to end.

Grizzly Cartridges sells a 350 grain Hawk with a .040 jacket at 2200 fps..Think about old Elmer Kieth and his recipe for big game.A bullet of atleast .33 caliber going 2200 fps.The modern 45-70 does that plus some.

Jayco

jaycocreek, I've read that Keith became fond of the 33's in his later years, even going so far as to design his own wildcat in that caliber, but I'm curious as to the date of that .33 @ 2200 recipe you mentioned. Writing in the 1930's: "for my own use for all species in timber hunting, I will use nothing smaller than a .35 caliber rifle firing a bullet of not less 250 gn weight, at not less than 2000." His favorite cartridge was the .35 Whelen. I wonder at what date he made the switch to "small" bores, like the .33, and I wonder what prompted the change -- presumably improvements in bullet construction.

Thanks for the opinions everyone. As for my .45-70 query, it was meant to be restricted to the low pressure, BP level loads offered by the big factories. There's a big difference of opinion between writers of 100 years ago and those of today. I've never used the .45, and I'm curious about this change of opinion.

quote:

Thanks for the opinions everyone. As for my .45-70 query, it was meant to be restricted to the low pressure, BP level loads offered by the big factories. There's a big difference of opinion between writers of 100 years ago and those of today. I've never used the .45, and I'm curious about this change of opinion.

the writers of today have to hype the equipment and supplies of today - and the .45-70 is definitely not of today.

Personally, I hunt elk with a .45-100 that uses bullets as light as 450 grs and as slow as 1150 fps. They kill things just find and dandy at any range that you can hit them with.

This forum has a .45-70 hangup that borders on innane. Use it and it will work just fine on elk, moose, whatever.

Brent

Good evening to Melbourne,
In the mid 1870's when the 45-70 showed up it was the 30-06 of its day. Gov't surplus ammo was great and still is. Along with other black powder cartridges in 40, 45 and 50 calibers they were the best there was at the time. The lever gun rimfires and 44-40's were the M16's of their day, good for killing people but lacking in power for buffalo, elk and grizz. I would suggest a couple of things. First, a half inch hole in any critter in the right spot is going to kill 'em but not too many modern folks are good at tracking anymore. Secondly, modern shooters panic if the one shot stop doesn't immediately put down the animal. I thing we sometimes take it as a personal affront to our manhood if they don't expire immediately on the spot. You mentioned factory loads and that's where the discussion evolved. However, if we're talking black powder handloads I have had great success with 45-70 and 45-120 using 60 grs of 2FFG for one and 110 grs of FFG for the other with a 530 soft lead bullet. It will drive through most anything and do it at ranges further than modern hunters can estimate. However, those long bullets must be used in single shot fast twist barrels of about 1:18". We have advanced in ballistics technology to the 338-378 class of "kill 'em in the next county and don't worry about blood shots of good meat" syndrome. Just get closer if you're using a 45-70 or stretch your effective kill zone by using the new 300 - 350 grain jacketed configurations. I've shot through buffalo, lengthwise through a mountain lion and quartering on a bull elk with that lead bullet. They were all dead but it took just a leetle while for them to realize something wasn't right and tip on over. There are stories ad naseum about old grizz shot full of 45-70 holes and still having enough life in them to knock the snot out of their antagonist. We all like to read those stories and I think a lot of that drives our desire to buy big rifles and the arms makers are in business to make a profit, so they built and we all come, so to speak.

The 350 grain North Fork is another great bullet for the 45-70.With the right powder it can safely be driven over 2200 fps out of a 22 inch barrel.Mike at North Fork has done alot of pressure testing on the 45-70 North Fork bullet and it performs excellantly on Elk.One fella I know,shot a nice 6X6 at 213 lazered yards for a quick one shot kill with his 45-70.Bullets like the North Fork/Woodleigh and Swift A-Frame and others have improved the lethality of the Modern 45-70 immensly on larger game with a jacketed bullet.It's nothing like it used to be with the addition of proper constructed bullets for the velocities it is capable of rather than the ones meant for sub-1800 fps(300 grains) impact.Now 300 grain bullets can achieve safely close to 2500 fps depending on barrel length.

Jayco