Lead poisoning in condors, venison prompts Idaho conference
By JOHN MILLER
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

BOISE, Idaho -- The potential risk of lead poisoning from high-velocity bullets, whether to carrion-eating condors in the Grand Canyon or to food bank patrons in the Midwest, is the subject of a scientific conference next week.

The issue has been heightened since North Dakota and Minnesota officials instructed food bank operators to clear their shelves of venison donated by hunters this year.

The move raised complaints from Safari Club International of Somerset, N.J., whose members gave about 316,000 pounds of venison to the needy last year under the group's Sportsmen Against Hunger program, and Farmers and Hunters Feeding the Hungry of Williamsport, Md., which donates more than 282,000 pounds of venison in 27 states annually.

The four-day gathering that begins Monday at Boise State University includes more than 50 presentations on issues ranging from lead poisoning among subsistence hunting Inuits in Alaska and Russia, lead levels in ravens in southern Yellowstone National Park, lead found in swans in Western Washington state and the politics of nontoxic ammunition.

"You're collecting a huge weight of evidence to infer or perhaps even prove there's a serious health risk, certainly to wildlife, but perhaps even to humans," said Rick Watson, vice president of The Peregrine Fund in Boise, a raptor recovery center that is sponsoring the conference.

"That should promote if not actual remediation of the problem, then further research on where there are gaps in that knowledge," Watson said Friday.

Lead poisoning has been linked to learning disabilities, behavioral problems and, at very high levels, seizures, coma, and death.

Watson said his group realized there might be a connection between lead poisoning, bullets, venison and humans after 1996, the year it began reintroducing rare California condors in northern Arizona. As many as 60 now soar over the Grand Canyon and southern Utah, but researchers and the Arizona Game and Fish Department found the scavengers were ailing from lead poisoning after eating hunter-killed deer and leftover gut piles.

In 2006, five condors died of lead poisoning and 90 percent of the rest had signs of exposure.

To learn more, Peregrine Fund researchers killed two deer with high-velocity lead ammunition and found that the bullets fragmented on impact, leaving the animals' flesh riddled with hundreds of microscopic lead particles.

"In the process of doing that study, we didn't want to waste the deer meat we had shot, so we had it processed," Watson said. "We thought, 'For interest's sake, let's take a look at some of these package to see if there was any lead' - and there was."

Skeptical, Dr. William Cornatzer of Bismarck, N.D., a physician, hunter and Peregrine Fund board member, used a CT scan to examine about 100 packets of venison from local food giveaway programs and found 60 percent had multiple lead fragments.

"There isn't much to argue," Cornatzer said. "It shows there is this toxic metal in our ground venison that we hunters have been eating for the last 50 years."

While no cases of lead poisoning from venison had been reported, his research helped lead to the warning to food banks in North Dakota in March. Days later, Minnesota followed suit after separate tests in that state.

Safari Club officials have contend there is no scientific basis for abandoning thousands of pounds of meat that otherwise would go to poor families at a time of rapidly escalating food costs.

Gene Rurka, chairman of the group's humanitarian efforts, said dumping venison on the basis of a few anecdotal studies was premature.

"I just can't imagine there's that kind of lead intrusion in the meat," Rurka said. "If it's a health issue, certainly, it's a concern, but to go out and say there's one guy who took a sampling of meat, and to use that across the entire program, it is totally unfair."

Watson said such skepticism is a key reason for the conference.

Among other reports, his group plans to release preliminary findings of a continuing study of packaged venison from 30 deer killed by researchers with high-velocity ammo and processed by 30 butchers in Wyoming. Watson, one of the authors, said the findings so far mirror the conclusions in North Dakota and Minnesota.

"We've effectively demonstrated that lead does get into venison, both hamburger and steaks," he said. "It's at levels sufficently high enough to be a concern to people who get those packets. We don't know what risk, but we know they are at some risk."

It has begun

How can this be???? Isn't this Ray's back yard???

I've read all over hunting and shooting boards that this could ONLY happen in CA. When I called for support I was insulted and laughed at for being in CA (my relatives have ranched in this area since the 1880's).

The first meeting I went to where a lead ban was proposed was around 1992. Let's see how long you folks can hold it off.

By the way don't think you're immune because you don't have condors. I've been in the field enough to see 3 times more mountain lions than anyone I know, I've done three degrees in ecology with all the associated field work, guided for a living for over 20 years and I've NEVER seen a a condor in this area. Nor do I know anyone around here who's seen one. For all practical purposes they are a mythical creature in our area (obviously there are a few around but our ban on lead bullets in this specific region will make NO difference to their populations). That didn't stop the ban here.

What will the poster child be in your area?

I'll miss the rimfires the most.

I am puzzled? In my own game meat, the areas that are blood shot are not used. I don't see how a cut of meat from a hind quarter can be contaminated when the animal was shot in the front shoulder. Even if the entire animal was used, the vast majority of the meat should be free of contamination. Sure there will be microscopic lead in the immediate area of the shot but that should only be a very small part of the whole animal. Am I missing something here? It seems that the samples must be "salted" in order to produce the desired results. DW

quote:

Originally posted by Skinner.:
Lead poisoning in condors, venison prompts Idaho conference
By JOHN MILLER
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER



BOISE, Idaho -- The potential risk of lead poisoning from high-velocity bullets, whether to carrion-eating condors in the Grand Canyon or to food bank patrons in the Midwest, is the subject of a scientific conference next week. more like junk science conference

The issue has been heightened since North Dakota and Minnesota officials instructed food bank operators to clear their shelves of venison donated by hunters this year.

The move raised complaints from Safari Club International of Somerset, N.J., whose members gave about 316,000 pounds of venison to the needy last year under the group's Sportsmen Against Hunger program, and Farmers and Hunters Feeding the Hungry of Williamsport, Md., which donates more than 282,000 pounds of venison in 27 states annually.

The four-day gathering that begins Monday at Boise State University includes more than 50 presentations on issues ranging from lead poisoning among subsistence hunting Inuits in Alaska and Russia, lead levels in ravens in southern Yellowstone National Park, lead found in swans in Western Washington state and the politics of nontoxic ammunition.

"You're collecting a huge weight of evidence to infer or perhaps even prove there's a serious health risk, certainly to wildlife, but perhaps even to humans," said Rick Watson, vice president of The Peregrine Fund in Boise, a raptor recovery center that is sponsoring the conference. I am sure they dont have a bias going into the study!

"That should promote if not actual remediation of the problem, then further research on where there are gaps in that knowledge," Watson said Friday.

Lead poisoning has been linked to learning disabilities, behavioral problems and, at very high levels, seizures, coma, and death.

Watson said his group realized there might be a connection between lead poisoning, bullets, venison and humans after 1996, the year it began reintroducing rare California condors in northern Arizona. As many as 60 now soar over the Grand Canyon and southern Utah, but researchers and the Arizona Game and Fish Department found the scavengers were ailing from lead poisoning after eating hunter-killed deer and leftover gut piles.

In 2006, five condors died of lead poisoning and 90 percent of the rest had signs of exposure.

[/To learn more, Peregrine Fund researchers killed two deer with high-velocity lead ammunition and found that the bullets fragmented on impact, leaving the animals' flesh riddled with hundreds of microscopic lead particles.

"In the process of doing that study, we didn't want to waste the deer meat we had shot, so we had it processed," Watson said. " We thought, 'For interest's sake, let's take a look at some of these package to see if there was any lead' - and there was." golly gee whiz, we were lucky we looked at the last minute

Skeptical, Dr. William Cornatzer of Bismarck, N.D., a physician, hunter and Peregrine Fund board member ,ah there he is, the token "hunter" used a CT scan to examine about 100 packets of venison from local food giveaway programs and found 60 percent had multiple lead fragments.

"There isn't much to argue," Cornatzer said. "It shows there is this toxic metal in our ground venison that we hunters have been eating for the last 50 years."

While no cases of lead poisoning from venison had been reported, dont let a little inconvenient fact like that slow you down his research helped lead to the warning to food banks in North Dakota in March. Days later, Minnesota followed suit after separate tests in that state.

Safari Club officials have contend there is no scientific basis for abandoning thousands of pounds of meat that otherwise would go to poor families at a time of rapidly escalating food costs.

Gene Rurka, chairman of the group's humanitarian efforts, said dumping venison on the basis of a few anecdotal studies was premature.

"I just can't imagine there's that kind of lead intrusion in the meat," Rurka said. "If it's a health issue, certainly, it's a concern, but to go out and say there's one guy who took a sampling of meat, and to use that across the entire program, it is totally unfair."

Watson said such skepticism is a key reason for the conference.

Among other reports, his group plans to release preliminary findings of a continuing study of packaged venison from 30 deer killed by researchers with high-velocity ammo and processed by 30 butchers in Wyoming. Watson, one of the authors, said the findings so far mirror the conclusions in North Dakota and Minnesota.

"We've effectively demonstrated that lead does get into venison, both hamburger and steaks," he said. "It's at levels sufficently high enough to be a concern to people who get those packets. We don't know what risk, but we know they are at some risk."

Life is risky. nearly 100% fatal last time I checked.

quote:

I've read all over hunting and shooting boards that this could ONLY happen in CA.

Sir, IMO the nonsense begins in California.

I agree... my point for the statement is so people won't sit back and assume it won't affect them in other states.

My hunting clients in CA regularly tell me how they're going to run and hide in other states because the politics are so messed up in CA. When will we realize as sportsmen that we need to work together? Just becuase you're not in CA (or planning to leave soon) doesn't mean you can ignore (or hide from) what's going on.

Too often I see people on these boards expending more energy making fun of CA than defending their rights in their own backyard. (This lead bullet saga is the perfect example.) Who does this disorganization serve?... the enemy. Those having no regards for your rights or heritage.

I'm commenting much more than I usually do specifically on these lead issues because I want to get people fired up. While we kick at each other the opposition wins. What is it going to take to get hunters and shooters to drop their minor differences and band together for our common good?

The liberals have overtaken Boise and the Wood River Valley. It certainly isn't the same place it was 20 years ago. The other day some chick told me I shouldn't hunt deer because they have brown eyes. I guess if they had green or blue eyes it would be ok to hunt them. You can't reason with a Disney influenced tree hugger. There are still lots of real people here though. Pay your dues to SCI and the NRA and we will keep up the fight! (Well, at least Ray and I will).

Those of you that get the NRA American Hunter can turn to page 25 of the June 2008 issue to see a short paragraph about this Apparently the alleged Test was done by a critic of Lead Bullets - William Cornatzer(supposed to have a Doctorate, but who knows). Seems this fool is a member of the Peregrine Fund which supports Califoney's Lead Bullet Ban.

Apparently the Iowa DNR did a "Scientific Study" and concluded that donated Venison poses NO Healt Risks

In the July 2008 NRA American Hunter there will be:

quote:

...an in-depth article, that gets to the bottom of this fiasco.

-----

Back when Skinner posted the first thread about this ridiculous debacle, I raised the old . Looks like I was right on Target.

Darn nice of Skinner to keep us aware of what the current crop of Loonies is trying to do to our excellent "Lead Bullets".

This is more about control than about safety!!!
They want to make thing as hard as possible for hunters and shooters to pursue their hobbies and as a back door gun control fight than any other itrem on the agenda. With out ammo your guns are useless, and this will move things in that direction!!!

quote:

Seems this fool is a member of the Peregrine Fund which supports Califoney's Lead Bullet Ban.

That was stated in the first article posted on that issue and in every article posted since then.

quote:

Apparently the Iowa DNR did a "Scientific Study" and concluded that donated Venison poses NO Healt Risks

They subjected processed frozen venison donated to food banks to testing and found few lead fragments. And stated that was due to IA's use of shotguns with slugs which do not fragment like lead core bullets from centerfire rifles apparently do.

So to say it poses no health risks is true for IA where the results showed few or no lead fragments. But they did not study, much less establish that lead fragments in venison poses no health risks.

But ND and MN tested venison too and found lead fragments, MN found them in steaks and roasts as well as ground venison. Both states allow centerfire rifles in the taking of deer.

quote:

Looks like I was right on Target.

Darn nice of Skinner to keep us aware of what the current crop of Loonies is trying to do to our excellent "Lead Bullets".

Actually it looks like you're still off target.

On this issue there is a need for full disclosure, not selective reading, reporting or creatively interpreting the information available.

In the case of lead fragments in donated venison, if they are present how can that product possibly comply with Federal, state and local food safety laws and be distributed to the public ?

I knew this was coming, just didn't expect it in Idaho. The lead ban here covers roughly 1/3 of the state. They've still got 2/3rds to go and you can bet your sweet ass the bastards will be going for it.

There is more bull shit per pound in the "scientists" than there could ever be lead in the meat. And how about left poisoning in California, far more dangerous to our society than a bit of lead.

This is what's goin' on out here, and it's just the tip of the iceburg, I'm sure.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
...In the July 2008 NRA American Hunter there will be:

quote:

...an in-depth article, that gets to the bottom of this fiasco.

...

Hey Skinner, You left out where all of this will be shown to be pure

And as usual, I was RIGHT AGAIN!!!

quote:

And as usual, I was RIGHT AGAIN!!!

So the NRA has secret information that disproves the finding of lead fragments in frozen processed venison by the MN and ND health depts. ?

And will negate Federal, state and local laws regarding lead fragments in a product distributed to the public ?

The NRA used the same tactic in the CA legislature, denying there was a problem, attacking a specific bit of the science but ignoring the body of science and making this a partisan issue.

Funny thing is that the same bill had been stalled in the previous few sessions of the legislature and was looking like it would be stalled again. Until the NRA started in.......

I hope SOMEONE does some actual scientific study on this subject using meat intended for use by THE HUNTER as opposed to the donated stuff.

You see, (normally) the donation programs use all ground meat. The processors get paid by the carcas. The expectation (locally) by the sponsors is 50lb./deer and frequently a LOT of deer need to be processed in short order. You can bet they are not as particular about what goes into the grinder as they would where the guy eating it is paying the bill. Hence there is likely a lot more bloodshot meat ending up in this "donated" meat. Bloodshot meat is found closer to the wound and more likely to be contaminated by the bullet(s). THAT is why I'd like to see the same testing done on meat destined for the actual hunter / person paying the bill, who the processor seeks to please. You can bet the greenies in the Perigrine organization aren't going to fund such a study that could disprove their theory! SCI or NRA could though. Hasn't anyone wondered why if this is such a big problem why all hunters aren't blundering around with lead induced mental disorders? Then again, the humaniacs think we are!

IIRC this is from either the San Diego zoo's website or the nature conservancy.

Trash removed from Condor's stomachs...

Gee, I wonder if they are ingesting led from other sources?

The following published 2002:

In addition, a number of wild condor nests were known to be littered with trash. We know that condors mistakenly eat trash, but it remains to be seen whether this will ultimately be a major problem for the California Condor Recovery Program. It is definitely not an issue of quality birds.

The problem is a human one, not a condor one. In the past, almost everything that wildlife may have mistaken for being edible was readily biodegradable. Now it can be lethal. An article that educates the public on how pollution and environmental toxins, such as plastic and lead, can harm wildlife would be more beneficial.

Bronwyn Davey

Information Specialist

California Condor Recovery

Program, U.S. Fish and

Wildlife Service, Ventura

quote:

Posted 01 June 2008 19:43 Hide Post
I hope SOMEONE does some actual scientific study on this subject using meat intended for use by THE HUNTER as opposed to the donated stuff.

You see, (normally) the donation programs use all ground meat. The processors get paid by the carcas. The expectation (locally) by the sponsors is 50lb./deer and frequently a LOT of deer need to be processed in short order. You can bet they are not as particular about what goes into the grinder as they would where the guy eating it is paying the bill. Hence there is likely a lot more bloodshot meat ending up in this "donated" meat. Bloodshot meat is found closer to the wound and more likely to be contaminated by the bullet(s). THAT is why I'd like to see the same testing done on meat destined for the actual hunter / person paying the bill, who the processor seeks to please. You can bet the greenies in the Perigrine organization aren't going to fund such a study that could disprove their theory! SCI or NRA could though. Hasn't anyone wondered why if this is such a big problem why all hunters aren't blundering around with lead induced mental disorders? Then again, the humaniacs think we are!

The study has been done.

The Minnesota DNR after a year suspension of the donation program trained processors how to trim and they still found lead in whole cuts, as well as grind meat.

Good Lord.I cant even begin to count the amount of Ducks,Goose(Yes boys and Girls at one time you could use lead shot)Pheasants,Rabbits,Quail I have killed and eaten,using lead shot.We lived on wild game when I was a kid.My kids ate venison as the main meat staple untill they left home.I have no three headed Grand kids and my whole family are healthy.What a crock of shit!!!!

We all know those birds could never eat enough lead to kill them. The "tests" are baited & phony as hell. But, with enough media bs they'll make every anti believe it's true.

That ground meat deal in the beginning was fairly well proven that: the processors tossed all parts into the grinders without hardly cleaning it up. Regardless of where the bullets were in the meat. When it's all ground in one huge batch of course there will be bullet fragments in much of it. They get ground into little pcs too and spread around/ mixed in.

When there's hundreds of bullet killed dear ground up this way. Theres bound to be a number of bullets stirred in. I read the article about this. Seems like it may have been in the NRA mags.

We're vastly outnumbered by the anti's anyway. We need to group together no matter what field of hunting we're in. This is much like the NRA only have 4-5million members when there's 80 million gun owners in the country. Us members are carrying the rest.

My wife doesn't like venison and I cannot eat several deers a year so I give a lot of the butchered meat to my son (in NYC and he freaks out his colleagues by hosting "game dinners" with meat shot by his Vermont father! They love it!!!) or to fellow hunters and neighbors who will eat it and enjoy it.

I gave some meat this year to my local food bank and they were insulting as hell so screw them forever more.

The guy who does my yard work has an appreciative family and he gets a lot of my meat.

We should all tell the food banks that pull this shit exactly what we're doing, and let the public know.