I just read an article on Leica's Duovid 8+12x42, this sounds like an excellent piece of glass, with the low power seting to locate game, and the 12x to evaluate it. Although at 34 ounces it is not particularly light, I might just have to get one.

What are your thoughts on this binocular? Also what glass (Spotting scope, Rifle scope, Binocular, Range finder) Do you use in the mountains. Why do you use it?

John Barsness says that glass is the real thing - it really works. Where I hunt, hunters are required to carry at least a 15X spotting scope for sheep. Even with a 15X, it can be tough to count annual rings at any distance. I'm looking at the nice 10-20X40 Leupold Compact. Another great item.
I use a Leica 800 LRF. The 1200 model is suppose to be better.
I use simple 4X and 6X42 rifle scopes for the most part. Most sheep shots are not long range affairs in the desert ranges I'm familar with.

Thomas, As far as a good mountain scope goes, you can't beat the Burris 4-12x compact, or the 3-9x like I've got on my Anschutz 54 sporter, light weight, crystal clear lens, up to 5" of eye relief and a super tough scope, check em' out on Burrisoptics.com Jay

Iam unqualified to tell you what scope to use on sheep, as I have not ever hunted them.
I always felt, the Shepperd scope, with it's ranging ability, might be an asset on a sheep hunt.
Less to pack and worry about as far as a range finder is concerned.
Quickly assesing your range and shooting in one fell swoope, might be a good idea.
I wish you well on your hunt.......sakofan..
Binos...10x42 Nikon Venturers are the ticket for me..

I use 10x40 ziess classics and a 12x40 leupold spotting scope.Glass is much more importantfor sheep hunting than for most other species in my opinion.I haven't used the variable power leicas so I won't comment on them.

Leica 8X42 binos.$$$$
Leica 40X 62mm spotter.$$$$
Leupold 6X42 scope.$
270 Caliber pre 64.$$$
1 42" NWT Dall ram (2005)priceless

Since you will be spending a lot of time glassing you will need the best quality you can afford. Otherwise, after a few hours behind your binocs or spotting scope it will feel like your eyes are being sucked right out of their sockets. It isn't any fun to hunt sheep with a raging migraine.

Speaking only about binoculars or spotting scopes, the best (and the most correct) advice I ever had about sheep hunting was to buy the highest quality of glass I could afford and then some if I could get away with it.

I just remembered that Leica just announced a 10&15X bino. You might want to consider one.
I use an 8X42 Leica. I find it much more user friendly for a wider range of conditions than any 10X40. The extra low light perofrmance of an 8X42 and it's ability to be used for long periods while standing, such as looking through cover, really aren't an issue when sheep hunting. For many years, all the serious sheep hunters I know used the 10X40 Zeiss. I've never talked to any sheep hunter, and I used to do alot of conservation work with dozens of them, that were unhappy in any way with that glass. I can argue that an 8X40 is just a smidge sharper a glass - thanks to it's larger exit pupil - but it takes a while comparing the two to really see this difference. Again, not much of any issue. At really long distance, like in the miles of mountainous terrain, a 10X has an edge. Anything over 10X really needs to be used off of a tripod. BTW, the standard spotting scope was usually a 20X.
Sheep really tend to be easy to see, even at ranges measured in miles. Even the rare desert variety are far easier to see than any of the deer that live in our desert ranges. I mean a typical desert mulie hides in cover and blends in really well. (Particularly O.h.eremicus !) But desert sheep, for instance, have a very large, distinct rump patch. The only time they are tough to see is when they are lying in the shade. And they never bed in cover like deer do. At least I've never seen them do it.
What I do is look over spots where they might be, then check out the suspicious looking things. It is truly amazing how far off you can see one. And see them first is the key. If they see you first, it's over for the day. You'll know. They can spot you very readily at 4-5 miles sometimes. When they do, they get on their feet and watch you. If they loose sight of you, they move out. E

Lovely binos, I have been coveting these ever since they came out - except for the price, which is steep!
For my money, the 8-12x42s are way too heavy for mountain hunting, though. Even though they offer you 12x for sizing up details, and even though a binocular will always have better resolution than a monocular (e.g. spotting scope), the 12x magnification is not going to be able to compete with the 40x you get from a decent spotting scope, say. My choice is a pair of first rate 8x30/8x32 binos for general glassing - Swarovski springs to mind, less weight than the Leicas - plus a light weight spotting scope for the detail work.
If you really must have your binos work as a spotting scope (serious compromise), think about a Swarovski or Zeiss plus their 2x magnification boosters. Just be aware, that there is a limit to what light you can get out of a 30-40mm objective lens!
I personally don't care too much for higher magnifications for general glassing - in particular in terrain where you glass over wide and widely varying distances. The higher the magnification, the bigger the chance you have to refocus the binos when you glass objects at different distances. Although a 10x, say, may offer more detail, you run the risk of eyestrain more easily - plus it is harder to hold still.
My $.02 - mike

Thomas,

I used duovids last season and they are very nice(not mine). I've used the 10x Zeiss classics(mine) and like them a lot. I've gotten new 8x50 Leicas, and although they are heavier and larger, they are very easy on the eyes, when glassing for long periods of time. I would only offer the opinion of others: buy the best you can. You won't be sorry.

Joe

For sheep hunting (and other) I've been well served and pleased with my 8x40 Ziess binocs for locating, then more intense evaluation with my 30x Leupold scope (no longer made). The scope is a bit of compromise from max desirable power and no variable aspect, but on the other hand, it is light weight.

There is only one set of binoculars that I even consider. [I am always looking for something better but so far for me these are the best] They are the Swaroski 8x30's. They are small enough to wear around your neck all the time. I have them on a short strap [just barely goes over my head], so they are out of the way, yet always available.
If I have to crawl or shoot prone I just tuck them inside my coat or shirt. I have heavier bino's [Swarovski 7x42's EXCELLENT GLASSES just too heavy and big to wear all the time] For a spotting scope I use a 25x Leupold with mil dots on the internal cross hair. This scope is light weight and weatherproof....but When I was in Alaska the Guide had what I consider the best spotting scope. It was the Leupold 12 power by 40 power variable. This is the best spotting scope for hunting I have seen. It is very clear even on 40x [when weather conditions permitthat high a bower], It is small, compact light weight and WEATHERPROOF. Give it a serious look.
Remember you "spot" game with the bino's, and "judge" it with the scope. Be sure to get a lightweight tripod that is at least tall enough to sit behind.

I have to agree with NE 450 No. 2 on the 8x30 Swarovskis and the Leupold spotting scope. Having done some sheep hunts on my own I will tell you that you want light weight in everything but the quality has to be superb. The glass that NE mentioned fits the bill.

As far as your rifle and scope go don't get sucked in by the super whiz bang 10 pound magmuns. A light 260,270,280 or something similiar is all you will need. The comment the other poster made about the 6x42 Leopold for the rifle scope might just be the ticket. There is no need for a monster variable.

Good Luck,

Mark

I'm in agreement with Jay about the Burris Compact scopes. I was lucky enuf to take a 3/4X 7/8's curl ram last season in the Sangre de Cristo's of Southern CO. via backpacking. I was set up nicely for lightweight gear. I used a custom XP-100 pistol in 6.5-284 Win. with the 3-12X Burris Ballistic Plex reticle, that was zeroed as far as the reticle would go (the lower post was about 6 or 700 yds.-- i can't recall now since i'm at work) but i'd set a limit of about 300 yds. for sheep. I use an 8X30 Zeiss binoc. I've had for years. I had a Leica 1200 rangefinder, and a 15-45X Bausch and Lomb Spotter (but it's probably going to be retired since i just got a 10-20X Leupold Compact). For backpack hunting i'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the Leupold is going to be the standard by which everything else is measured as soon as we get some info. on how they work afield-- i'll be comparing mine to the B+L in late summer for rockchucks. Check out my bighorn if you want at www.perry-systems.com-- hunter testimonial.

Yes Swarovski binokulars are realy good(at the moment better than zeiss!) for sheep the 10x42 slc would be fine.

I have hunted sheep quite a bit in southern alberta for the last 4 or 5 years. What I have been using is a pair of Pentax 10X42 Binoculars, which I am only marginaly happy with. I have had to send them in twice to re aligh the two tubes. They are relatively light, and carried on a PSE bino harness that goes on behind the shoulders I have no problem carrying them for a full day, or week whatever the case may be.
The spotter I am using is a fixed Zeiss 30X60. This is a very short piece of glass that I am very happy with, However i do see the value in having a variable power spotter to ajust to the wether conditions. A point that NE 450 No 2 brought up is having a cross hair or a mil dot in the spotter. It is somthing I have wished for when trying to Judge the curl of a ram. It seems that this referance point would make the job much easier. What scopes can be had that have crosshairs in them?
Currently my mountain hunting gun is a Ruger chambered in 7x57,(Might grow into a 280AI this summer) on top sits a leupold fixed 8X with ajustable objective. This combination has worked well for me, even on mulies at 20m. I think something lighter might be in order like a fixed 6X.
And finally and least importantly, I am using a Bushnell 800 yard range finder. Although I am quite surprised how well this unit works, I am looking hard at the Leica glass.

thanks for all of your replys, it gives me food for thought in upgrading my optics.

[ 05-23-2003, 16:46: Message edited by: Thomas ]

Totally agree with N E 450 No2, my setup exactly - after having tried getting it right over the years, this is where it seems to stay for me: 1st class 8x30 binocs and a Leupold spotting scope (mine is a 12-40) plus a lightweight tripod large enough to sit behind. A lot of weight, but it saves days and hours on your legs if you don't have to try to get closer to a sheep you don't want after all...
- mike

Thomas, you can get the mil-dots in the Leupold from Premier Reticle.

I have Bushnell 800 and the Leica rangefinder [not the bino/rangefinder combo, just too heavy you use the binos a LOT the rangefinder very little]. I have found the Bushnell to be superior to the Leica. I can get readings the first time with the Bushnell that take several attempts with the Leica, and sometimes you get nothing with the Leica. Also the Bushnel had a "rain" feature and a "brush" feature that enables you to cancel out signals out to about 160yds if I remember correctly, so you can screen out close up tree branches when taking a reading at a distance. I have found this feature to be very useful as you can take a reading from behind cover without "popping" your head up.
As to scopes... Several of my rifles have worn a fixed 6x. For weight, ruggedness, and overall performance it is hard to beat. However I think the best scopes for a rifle that might be used for long range shooting should have a Ballistic Cam. That way you "dial" in the range that you are shooting and hold "dead on". This makes it easier if after the first shot the animal is moving on the follow up shots. Many of the so called "Sniper" scopes have this feature. The Leupold 3.5x10 long range M3 is a good one as are the Eurppean ones. The Swarovski ZF84 6x is very good. Only draw back is that these scopes are heavy. Another solution, and a good one, is to have a Ballistic reticle like Burris offers, learn to use mil-dots, or get a custom reticle from Premier Reticle. Then after you laser the range, you just "hold" on the correct point on your reticle and hope your skinning knife is sharp.

Thomas,

Never hunted sheep, but as a stalker in the UK we use, and rely on bino's extensively...Currently I have a pair of Swarovski 7x42SLC and i am very happy with them. When the Leicas Duovids came out i took along hard look at them. Although the gerneral build and optical quality are typically Leica (ie superb!) I just don't feel an increase from 8 to 12 power is the worth the penalty in terms of weight increase, cost and reliability issues. If I were buying new glass now I would seriously look at either 8.5x42 or 10x42 Swarovski EL's and then go for a decent spotting scope. You might want to browse the bird watching magazines or web sites for review as those guys are really serious about optics and have similar requirements to us hunters. Also think about your tripod. Without a stable rest most of the benifits of a decent spotting scope are lost...

As to rangefinders, I have a Leica 1600 and I am very pleased with it. Works borely well and has held up to the worst of the British weather ok! Leica apparently did have some reliability issues with their very first rangefinders, but that now seems to be resolved as you would expect from a company like Leica.

Regards,

Peter

Take a look at Bob Jourdan's writeup on the Leica LRF's in the last edition of The Accurate Rifle mag. He put some effort into finding out the facts on these rangefinders. Turns out the Leica's have considerably less beam dispersion than the lower priced models, and they also have the "pass through" mode as was mentioned above. You should experience better results with the Leica's.

One of my hunters had a set of those varible Lieca glasses in Africa this year and another on my elk hunts...I was not at all impressed, they didn't clear up quite right on the higher settings but worked great on the lower settings, they are too heavy for a hunter....

My choice is now and allways has been 8x42s, My present pair is a set of Kahles, now made by Swaroski, in fact the only difference is one has a SS body and the other a aluminum body, and the color is different the optics are the same..That tidbit of information is from the horses mouth btw...They are made in different factories also for what its worth...

I like them better than my Ziess, which I sold last week...

A hunting glass should be managable from an off hand position, the 8's work better for me than the 10's by a long shot...

Quite right, Ray, not to mention the weight. I have the Swarovski 10x42 SLC or something like that. I've been googling my dads 8x30 (32??) of the same brand ever since brought that home from his summer trip to Austria.

I remember a test I once did with a 8x and a 10x glass, the 10x not giving an advantage because of the fact that one could not hold it still enough. Without having ever touched the glass I would say that 8x vs 12x wouldn't make a heck of a lot of difference.

I used to own a 7-21x glass, that brought the target a lot closer on higher setting, but didn't really reveal much more detail, because of optic quality and motion...

Nah, given the choice and money, I'd opt for a 8x30 something for glassing and decent scope (with a serious magnification) for "evaluation".

All that without having seen or used the glass you mentioned.

Frans