Gents,

I was wondering, how many hunters here, would travel all the way to Alaska, or Canada, and hunt 'unguided' for black bears?

Just checking the websites, I see that guided hunts in Alaska can range from $3000 to $6000, while unguided hunts may start a $1500 and go up from there. Canada is close to the same, but in some places a hunter can take two bears.

Has anyone here actually taken two bears at one time in Canada? Maybe know someone who did?

The obvious advantage with 'Guided' hunts are numerous. The Guide is usually a good judge of bears, and may help the less experienced hunter avoid 'ground shrinkage.' They also will take care of skinning and fleshing the hide, and removing the skull. Certainly a worthwhile deal for some people.

On an 'un-Guided' hunt, via what some States call 'Transporters or Outfitters', there's not quite as much support. A hunter needs to judge the bears himself, while not easy, an experienced bear hunter might enjoy the challenge. Plus, at least in S.E. Alaska, the hunt is likely to involve cruising around in a small skiff. So the hunter (usually a team of two or three) will have to be able to handle a skiff and navigate some rocky areas. Often times in Alaska, the hunt is based from a larger 'mother ship' which moves from area to area, depending on hunting conditions. Seeing bears is not an issue on these hunts, but success depends solely on the hunters.

In Canada... well, to be honest, I know little of 'un-guided' hunts in Canada. If anyone knows more, I'd like to hear it. The 'Guided' hunts seem to be split between 'bait' hunts, and 'stalk and spot' hunts. Usually land based, perhaps on a lake.

I guess what I was wondering, is which kind of hunt do you guys here prefer? The expensive 'guided' version, with more technical assistance, or the 'un-guided' versions which are much cheaper, but require more hunter input?

I don't think you can hunt without a guide in Canada unless you are a resident of Canada and in some cases I think you need to be a resident of the specific province where the hunt takes place.

Unguided hunts can be a lot of fun for 2 or 4 guys if you have sufficient outdoor experience and have the required equipment. SE Alaska, while it has a lot of quality black bear, has it's own specific set of problems and dangers you may not be aware of or prepared to handle....mostly with respect to weather and how it can turn bad very quickly (and bad can be deadly) and the other has to do with being able to handle a small boat and being very, very careful of tides. You don't need to be very far from shore until your are basically "in the deep water ocean" mode. If you and your friends aren't proficient and 100% comfortable in boats I would not try and hunt "unguided" in SE Alaska.

Float trips down various rivers can however be very productive and with reasonable care, relatively comfortable. I lived in Alaska during the late '60's and it was one of my favorite ways to hunt.

About 1970 a hunting friend and I planned a spring bear hunting trip to Canada in May. We left CT in his like new Jeep Wagoneer loaded down with lots of rifles (including a nice M70 .375 H&H) and camping gear and stayed at my camp in Southern VT. The next day we drove thru Montreal and kept going as far as you can until it gets dark. I have no idea where we were. At dusk we were on a narrow dirt road looking at a river running all over the low land below as it was mud season. I said to Bob. Don't try it. He tried it. We got stuck in the middle of the lowland area and when I opened the door water ran right in!

The story of getting out is not part of bear hunting so I will go on. Late the next day we found a nice looking hardwood area and hunted and camped there. We found a real, set bear trap in the forest there and Bob shot a skunk.

After hunting a couple of areas and not finding any fresh sign we went to a store and asked where one might find a bear to hunt. Nobody would talk to us in English and we could not speak French. In desperation we went to the Royal Mounted Police station. I walked up to the window and asked the Mountie "do you speak English" he said "sometimes".

After some conversation he told us that the bears were in the dumps! We found a dump and sure enough there was an old car there with a guy watching the dump. From the body language we got as guys rode into the dump later in the day after work we knew we were not welcome. Anyways the dump was burning and smelled.

After a week it seemed warm and I think we were homesick so we left Canada. But not after meeting a "French" official with our car full on guns in Mt Trembaunt State Forest.

As far as I know in BC and alberta any non-resident needs to have a guide to hunt anything. In the area of BC that I live in you are allowed to shoot 2 bears a year including a spring bear hunt. I shot one last year but turned down dozens of other opertunities. Personnaly I can't see paying 3000$ for a bear hunt but if its your interest then go for it.

Also I would turn down any dump bear I ever saw, they say you are what you eat and I couldn't see a dump bear being very tasty.

Mark

For $400 I can join the local hunting club here and shoot a blackie probably twice the size of a bear up there if I work at it and put in the stand time. I wouldn't consider going anyway to pay for black bear hunting outside of Eastern NC unless it was one of those Alaskan fishing boat trips.

Best,
QD

I think unguided for black bear in Alaska would be a very doable thing.

I took one on a guided hunt last year. The outfitter also offered unguided drop camps which had a pretty high success rate. A bit more than $1500 however.

Very true quickdraw I think there is a big misconception in the size of black bear in BC. I have heard some stories of big blacks taken on Vancouver Island and I believe Jim shockey has a territory out there with excellent bears that may go up to 500 lbs from what I heard but they are salmon fed. I have read though in several hunting books and magazines that the southernly bears are the bigger ones than you can find in the Canadian mainland. The average bear I see in this area of BC is around 250-350 lbs nothing special for sure.

Thanks guys for the sharing your experiences.

I wasn't aware that a Guide was required in Canada. But I guess it makes sense, as any non-resident alien is required to hire a Guide for all hunting in Alaska.

I've seen some of the very impressive black bears that come from North Carolina, Pennsylvania, etc. Huge body size, but I'm not sure their skulls match up to the trophy skulls from Alaska. Of course, a big bodied bear is certainly a trophy in it's own right.

Quickdraw,

The un-guided black bear hunt in Alaska I was referring to, is the 'fishing boat' style hunt. There's certainly a lot more fun involved with hunting bears in that sort of enviroment, than just the actual hunting. I think the challenge of hunting in some of Alaska's beautiful and remote country, is just as fun as the final stalk. Well, almost as fun!

Thanks

I wouldn't pay $3000 to go black bear hunting either, but that's because BC folks have many opportunities for black bear.

Some guys would think it's nuts to pay ANYTHING for hog hunting, but I would, simply because there are no hogs in BC!

Anyways... you can't hunt in BC without a guide unless you are a resident of BC or a resident of Canada, and hunting with a BC resident under special license. If you are a foreigner, a BC resident can use a special license to hunt with you if you are a direct relative.

There are LOTS of big black bears in BC. On the coast they can get very large, but one of the biggest I have ever seen was just up the road from me. (Lots of berries in that area, and a salmon spawnig area that connects to the Fraser river)

It was HUGE, and scared the shit out of my girlfriend and I, as it crunched along parralell to the trail from us. (I was armed with that legendary bear stopping weapon, the 20 guage with #6 shot )

The nice thing about 2 bear areas is that you can shoot the first bear you see if it looks good to you. Then if it "shrinks," you can still have an opportunity for another!

DB Bill,

You mentioned a very good point, that being the fact that boating in S.E. Alaska is not for the faint of heart.

Funny that you should mention rafting as a safer alternative. I've always been a bit leary about rafting down big glacier fed rivers!

Since it wasn't obvious in my first post, I should point out that I live in S.E. Alaska. Perhaps my familiarity makes me less conscious about the hazards involved in the boating around here?

My whole point of starting this thread, was to find out just how much interest there is in 'non-guided' Alaska black bear hunts. I'm retiring in a couple years, and thought it might be nice to start an 'outfitting' service geared toward the more experienced bear hunter. Like I mentioned above, these would be large boat based, with the hunters, by themselves, cruising the nearby waters in small skiffs. Not usually within eye-sight, but certainly within VHF range.

Thanks for your help.

BW......I'm sure you're aware of this but Alaska draws some fine distinctions between being a guide and accepting money for "helping out" by severly limiting what non-guides can do in the assistance of others. A friend of mine got caught up in this helping moose hunters along the Yukon River...not pleasant.

The rafting I was referring to was done in the Interior of Alaska and the 4 of us did it right as we actually used 4 rafts....2 in each raft but each pair had a raft for gear and trophies. If I were ever to do it over again I would hire a helper to assist in setting up camp, cooking and packing as we spend a lot of time doing chores when we could have been hunting....still great trips and we saw a lot of country.

Brian - a group (4) have been going to Prince William Sound with a guy that runs a fishing charter during the summer - we usually go the week after Memorial Day - he drops us off about 2/3 of the way between Whittier and Valdez in the area we choose - we can rent his inflatable for the time we stay (one week) - he supplies only the transportation to and from the drop off area, the inflatable with outboard and fuel, plus an emergency kit to stay in the boat which includes repair items plus radio plus an emergency beacon - he charges $450 per person, the hunters can stay any length of time and he will come by about every 3-4 days to check on the group - the group must be self sufficient in numerous areas to include watercraft, camping in sometimes crappy weather, first aid plus the normal skills needed to hunt black bear - the PWS black bears are not large, max size is approximately six and a half to seven feet, about 350 lbs. - have heard Sitka has a good population, sounds like a fun retirement - good luck - KMule

KMuleinAK.

Thanks for that bit of info. I have been looking at lot's of websites lately, of folks who provide this sort of service.

My plan is somewhat different. The hunters would return each evening, after their hunt, to the main boat, where they'd have staterooms (fancy word for a small room with 1-3 bunks ), heads with showers, meals, and a warm place to dry their gear. Rather than being limited to one area, if the group choses too, we would pull anchor (say the next morning) and head to another agreed upon location.

There are limits, as DB Bill mentioned, that I would have to follow carefully. I could not accompany the hunters in the skiffs while cruising the beaches, and certainly not while on-shore. If the clients tell me that they would like to be dropped off at 'such and such' a location, and be picked up later that day, then I could do that, as that is the technical definition of 'transporting', and the State say's that's okay.

In my mind, that's sounds like a better hunt than the one you described. But it would cost more.

As an Alaskan resident, would you consider doing a hunt like I described for Brown bear? I know that S.E. Brownies don't quite compare to the slightly larger Kodiak and Alaska Penn. bears, but then again the cost would be much lower.

One last question, for KMule, but anyone can feel free to anwser. Did you like the inflatable, or would a simple aluminum skiff have worked better? I'm personally leaning towards skiffs myself (welded variety) over the rafts. I own a couple older rafts (good ones, not the pool toys ) and I'm always fixing leaks in them. Not monster holes, but just leaks that tend to make me pump them up after a night on the beach.

Thanks

As quickdraw said eastern NC is the home of giant sized black bears. A locally produced outdoor/hunting show has made some great tapes/shows of these swamp monsters and are in the process of setting up an outfitting service for these hunts.

I know that 400-600lb bears are regularly taken and one went over 800lbs.

A few years ago Craig Boddington did an article about the NC bears in Petersen's Hunting. He thought their size matched that of an inland grizzly.

From what I have seen on the tapes their disposition is also quite grizzly like.

Here is a link to their website:

http://bropinc.com/

Brian - your idea sounds great; one of my neighbors / once in a while hunting buddies does a similar hunt from a boat off Cordova for sitka deer - the thought of a warm, dry boat sounds very appealing - as far as inflatable versus skiff, I agree that the skiff is a much better choice and much less maintenance would be needed - also, as far as a hunt for brownies - yes, I would definetely be interested - I will also say that our group really enjoys the quiet and solitude of coastal hunting, the late day meal and a nice fire to stare into - boat based hunts will do well, I have not yet done this as the cost has been quite high (i.e. I'm a cheapskate) - your plan does sound like a winner - I will talk with hunting buddies (one other posts here at AR) and have them respond to this post for more feedback - please keep us informed - KMule

Brian, I think alaskans would go for your plan, especially for the brownies. I know I would. I guess I spent to many nights in a tent and a dry place would be nice. It basically depends on the price. I realize you cant do this for free.

As for skiffs vs inflatables. I'm more of an inflatable kind of kind. Skiffs are nice, I've thought hard about getting a 20ft'er for up here. Considering the people that might be using them, I'd go for an inflatable, IMO. You get someone who doesnt know what they are doing and they run it into the rocks and pop a tube, it wont sink (with quality rafts) because of the check valves between compartments. I know it takes alot to sink a skiff but I know alot of people that can break ball bearings with rubber hammers. Sometimes people are idiots. Plus I may be wrong since I never owned a skiff but wouldnt an inflatable be more stable during big swells (storms, etc)? If I'm wrong, please let me know.

In Alberta you require a guide (if you are a non-resident alien) except if you are going with an Alberta resident who has a host hunting permit. You get these from the fish & wildlife people, and they don't cost anything. They've changed the rules somewhat in the last couple of years, it used to be that you could take anyone you like, but now you're allowed two hunters on the permit (not including the Albertan), and at least one of them is supposed to be some kind of relative, brother -in-law, cousin etc. You have to get the forms from here, and then fill them out where you live and get them notarised. There is no cost for this (at least from the Alberta side), just time involved. I just did this for a couple of friends of mine from Nebraska, it's not that difficult. Once you are in, the regular game rules apply, as does the alien non-resident cost of licences (which is comparatively cheap, the low CDN dollar see's to that). As to the size of bears, a good one will run 250-400 pounds. every year someone takes a monster, but it's kind of like winning the lotto, there's not a lot of 600 pound black bears out there. Up in the Peace River area, you can find a lot of 6 ft. bears, in various color phases; ie cinnamon, blonde, reddish, etc. There are spring and fall hunts for bear, and most bear hunting is done over bait. Hunting at the dump was true 20 years ago, but not today. I don't know what it costs to hunt bear in NC, but I priced out elk hunting in Wyoming, and even for US citizens (of other states), Alberta was still way cheaper. On the other hand, you don't have those advantages of a professional guide, so "some days you get the bear, and some days the bear gets you". - Dan

It is quite comon to take two bears on an alberta bear hunt.Hunters usually kill the first decent bear then look for a big one.The average bear where I live in north eastern alberta will be in the 200lb to 300lb range but I have seen several in the 500lb to 600lb range over the years with a couple of real monsters that were even bigger.You will see many bears and if you can pass up the smaller ones you can easily get a nice one or two.

Brian,

I don't know about SE Alaska, but there are a few companies providing just the service you describe for black bear, brown bear, and deer hunters in PWS and Kodiak, as well as the AK Peninsula.

It's a great way to hunt. I just got back from a Kodiak deer hunt with a company set up the same way. They also down brown and black bear hunts. I would think it would be a great semi-retirement plan.

BW,

I was raised in Eastern N.C. on the sounds and tidal rivers and always had a skiff. Since coming to Alaska, I have had the opportunity to use quality, and I emphasize "quality", inflatables and I only use those now. Nothing better when it gets rough out there, takes less motor therefore less fuel, and as previously stated, they're just about idiot proof. My wife bought me a sixteen foot Zodiac while I was in camp this Fall. It has a solid metal floor and hard bottom, convertible canvas top w/window that keeps you dry, self-bailing, and I'm 6'3", 260# and I can stand on one side and it is incredibly stable. It's used but is in great condition. Can't wait to bear hunt with it this Spring. IMHO, an inflatable is a hard rig to beat.

Joe

To All,

Thanks again Gents, for relating all your experiences. It's the kind of info that probably use to take weeks to gather, if at all.

Not trying to end this thread! Just wanted to let everyone know I was still reading and paying attention.

So if anyone else has anything to add, please keep it coming.

[ 01-02-2003, 01:45: Message edited by: BW ]

ovis,

You have a point, in that most large inflatables are very nice. The largest I've been in, was a 14 footer, with a 25hp kicker. That was a nice stable platform.

I'll continue to keep them in mind, and compare them with skiffs. I guess the things I need to look at, are initial cost, maintenance cost, ability to take a beating , and how well they tow (behind a larger boat.) I towed an 11ft Zodiak once behind a 24ft cabin cruiser, and it made it's presence know! I could barely stay on step at 19mph, when the boat normally cruises at 25mgph. To be fair, there were a couple more people inside the boat too.

From what I've seen, all the bear guides around here tow skiffs behind their big boats, rather than rafts.

Your boat sounds very nice though! Is it a center console, or tiller?

[ 01-02-2003, 01:45: Message edited by: BW ]

BW,

Tiller steer. I missed the towing part of the post. Most of the larger boats carry the inflatable on top of the wheel house up here. I trailer mine and ramp or beach launch. I really like being able to beach this thing where I would never take a skiff. Good luck in your endeavor.

Joe

ovis,

Yep, most folks here store their rafts the same way. I used to keep mine up on my flybridge, but then it was hard to get down, and I couldn't use the flybridge for cruising.

I started keeping it across the back of my boat, like in these picture...




Those are actually two different rafts, and while the first one hangs over the sides a good bit (it's an 11ft model) there's still plenty of room on the cockpit for doing other stuff. (like crabbing )

Any bigger than those rafts though, and it's strictly a towing proposition. I put together a nice towing rope, with floating polypro line, and several small floats, to keep the line out of my duo-prop outdrive.

I know this guy and he can put you on a good bear. His outstanding reputation is wellknown in these parts.

http://www.homestead.com/conmans/

BW, the problem we have here in Alaska is too many people outfitting out-of-state hunters. Can hardly find a river to float for moose without some transporter dropping in several other groups. Not saying that I would hold it against you because I wouldn't. Just like to gripe about how much more commercial things have become in recent years - not so much with guides, but with transporters.

I will say that anyone comparing a hunt in North Carolina to bear hunting from a boat in Alaska is focusing way too much on the bear and not enough on the hunting. The scenery, the wildness of it all, the fishing, the number of bears you are likely to see will all put NC to shame. I saw 45 bears in three days last year from my boat (though 20-30% of these were probably ones I had counted on another day). Now I doubt any of them were 500#s, but size is only a part of what makes a trophy - the experience the trophy symbolizes is a much larger part.

Good luck to you. Guiding or transporting is no great way to make a living. I guide fisherman part time, and I have about cured myself of my fishing addiction. Think I fished two days last year, when I used to fish 30 or 40 days each summer. Watch out you don't ruin a good avocation by making it a vocation.

Brian:

Please check your PMs.

Russ

Rob,

I grew up in Eastern N.C. and I couldn't agree with you more about things up here compared to there. Yeah, there are some big bear in N.C. but for every one that is over 450lbs there are a lot more taken that are much smaller. There just aren't enough wild places to support the range needed for a big bear to, well, get big.

I had been gone from Eastern N.C. when I went back for a visit this past summer. I enjoyed seeing my family, but visiting the old hunting and fishing haunts was depressing. It really re-enforced why living in Alaska is so important to me at this point of my life.

Joe

You can repair those old rafts, and maintain them for cheap if you are proactive. Use a neoprene coating (that's probably what they are made of, depending on their age) and it will seal up the little cracks that have likely formed from sunrot and age. It will make them like new. http://www.nrscatalog.com/product.asp?pfid=1932
If you are not sure of the material (it might be hypalon, and you would need the appropriate coating) run the boat by a river supply shop. Expect to spend around $50-75 as well as a couple of hours cleaning and painting the boat (for an 11' boat). NRS has pretty good prices, as well as everything you will need. To maintain the boat, use 303 protectant on it (good dousing at begining/end of season, and a light wipe-down occasionally). It will keep the sun from rotting the new coating and make it last indefinately. 303 seems a little pricy for what it is, but there is no substitute (absolutely NOT armor-all!). A quart should last for a while after the new hypalon/neoprene coating. You should not have to pump up the rafts at all if you re-coat them (of course temp changes will affect this).

I'll bet if you keep the front up out of the water (weight in the back) it will tow fine. If it is a self bailer, it will likely tow better upside down or not at all! Or just inflate it at your drop-off site. You will obviously have to send a hand pump and repair kit (duck tape) with the boat anyway.

Sounds like a fun plan, even if you don't get rich doing it!

Good luck!

Ovis, most of my fishing for last 20 years has been done in your neighborhood.

Rob,

Sure is a great place but has really changed since the floods in October & November. Doesn't look anything like it used to look.

Coffee pot's always on.

Joe

BW,
All of the above sounds good. I realize that it's relativly easy and less expensive for me to just stay put if I want a bear; however, dropping down to S.E. in the obvious comfort you described should be well recieved by residents, particularly those of my age. As stated by others, this is a method of hunting that I've seen gain popularity by fellows in my area wether to Kodiak for deer or P.W.S. for goats or bear. I could think of nothing better than to forgo the old spike camp tent for at least one hunt a season.

Ovis ,
Is it safe to venture down to the Anchor yet? I'm scared that if I do, I might get wet! There is still the matter of a certain cup-o-coffee between us I believe!

best,
bhtr

Gents,

Been a few posts made since I last spoke up. Thought I better make some comments and give some answers.

Rob,

I'd agree, that in many parts of the State, there are probably too many hunters. But the area I'm looking at hunting, has little pressure. I know that's hard to believe! But it's somewhat isolated from any of the towns down here, so it's not heavily used by transporters or guides.

The reason that things "have not got more commercial with guides" is that the whole darn program is locked up by a select few, and the State makes rules which keep it that way. I'm not knocking guides, they deserve their share, and provide valuable services to the non-resident. I just wonder why all game animals, and not just the three which require guides, are locked up in the 'Guide System?' It doesn't make since to me, and I'd like to get more active in the legislative proccess.

Anyhow, as a 'transporter' or what most folks call an 'outfitter' I will be able to provide everything an experienced hunter will need to successfully hunt black bears in S.E. Alaska. That's also true for the Alaskan resident, and Brown bears. Heck, I live in Brown bear country, and have to leave it just to reach the black bears. 'Outfitting' resident brown bear hunters would be even easier than non-res. black bear hunters.

Rafts or Skiffs?...

I'm still leaning towards skiffs. The require a lot less maintenance, have more room inside for the same size boat, and tow better than rafts. I'm looking hard at those 'porta-botes.' Those are the ones that fold up for transport. The folding part doesn't make that much difference to me. But, the are made out of very thick poly-plastic stuff that is very tough. They're next to impossible to punch a hole in, float even when swamped, don't rust, don't dent, don't get leaks, and make pretty good speed even with a 6hp kicker. The 12ft model hold 3-4 hunters, or about 650 pounds. Also, they're lightweight, so they can be dragged back down to the water with little effort.

Thanks for the advice and opinions though!

To all, I really appreciate the positive comments!!! It's nice to hear, that if I get this thing going, that there is a market for the service, and people will want to do this sort of hunt.

Brian, I was just in a bitchy mood, but I imagine like the rest of Alaska, it is just a matter of time before that area you hunt has a lot of hunters, whether it is you or someone else. Maybe I should try and come down there this spring (before it is too late, heh, heh).

To be honest with you, I have an assistant guide license (that I have never used), and was thinking of working a deal with a guide I know to take non-residents moose hunting with the stipulation that I get the meat - I could pay for my trip and equipment and do everything I normally do but pull the trigger. Only other person hunting this area is a guide, but the thing is I would be starting a range war. The guide called the state troopers on me and I was visited by them three times this year (though I was completely above board - I was supposedly same day airborne hunting (didn't kill a moose), guiding without a license (this is the third trip my resident hunting partner has made with me down there) and landing on his "private" airstrip (a gravel bar in the river)). Matter of fact, I think he may have already started the range war, except I am not interested in a bunch of BS while I am on vacation hunting. That might just be why I am so touchy about all this - non-residents ran me off the river I used to float, so now I am competing with an a**hole guide.

Ovis, about the same thing happened in 1986. Used to be good fishing right out the back of the Silver King tackle shop before that flood rerouted the river. My property on the beach up by Starisky Creek has just about eroded away completely, and we had big mud slides coming down the bluff where there hasn't been any in recent times. Global warming, el nino or something.

Rob,

I was just thinking more about 'transporting' residents for Brown bear, and realized that I'll have to wait until the USFS lifts their current moritorium on new permits for the ABC Islands. But, that will probably happen before I'm ready to start my business.

I've been lucky I guess, in that all the Guides I've run into have been quite nice. It may have something to do with the fact we're all out there on boats, and you just never know when you might need some assistance. The Coast Guard is fast, but usually another boat is faster.

It is my hope, that by purposely hunting areas that are sort of 'off the beaten path', that I can maintain a good relationship with all the local guides and outfitters. It's just a matter of working a little harder, and making a place for my operation. The upside is, that the place is absolutely black bear heaven!

As far as having too many hunters? Maybe the GMU as a whole is heavily hunted, but not where I'll be stopping my boat.

I agree with what has been stated on Ak vs. NC bear hunting regarding the scenery and the number of bears seen on a hunt.

However, I must disagree on the fishing! Now we all know AK fishing is unbelievably good....maybe it's a good thing that NC fishing is so underated. All I will say is the rockfish are back and there's plenty of them.

As far as bear hunting goes, it just takes one big one. We have 'em.

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