He had an interesting "think piece" in the mag this issue (just out) asking the question, "Are there too many hunters?"

He talks about how US hunters actually have less space for hunting per hunter than many European hunters. Meanwhile the industry is fueled (like every other industry) by expanding the customer base and bringing in more hunters. He also talks about how farmers have changed THEIR permissive practices of the past further limiting accessible hunting AND about how habitat loss and management also take away hunting land from the average Joe.

Personally, I've seen a real decline in the available farmland for hunting in my area. But, I've also seen a real decline in the numbers of "regular gun" deer hunters with a corresponding increase in muzzleloading deer hunters and bow hunters.

How say you all?

First I would like to say, I really like "Successful Hunter", it's fast becoming one of my favorite Magaines. I also like John Barnsness really well.
As to the hunting area thing, I have seen a real decline in available private land in my area, but we have gained quite a bit of public ground. A lot of the private ground around my home has been leased to out of state guys. While that doesn't make me happy, my happiness really is not high on the farmers' list of priorities. They have to feed families, and put kids through school like the rest of us, and the reality of it is, farming ain't payin' the bills. So I have been working on learning to hunt public land. I think it's the sign of the times.

DGK

[ 08-29-2003, 20:38: Message edited by: 375hnh ]

I would agree with the increase in "specialty hunters" bow, front-loader, pistol. I know in NE Wis the available land is being eaten up by houses. In MI I have seen 40 acres going for 80k if you have 2 kids that hunt the 40 gets a little small with masive hunting preasure arround you.

Andrew

It's pretty hard to wish that more hunters were in the sport, and yet ask for more elbow room at the same time.

Let's face it, our sport is in the decline. Fewer young people are getting involved, the hunting population is aging, less land will be available in years to come to hunt on, and the price of hunting will be going up and up. In short, I think we're circling the drain.

I don't see a meaningful, long-term solution out there......

AD

It's not all doom and gloom . For instance , whitetail hunting in the Mid-west farm country seems to be gaining by leaps and bounds .

I grew up in Iowa , and it was a big deal to see a deer once a year . Now this year I hear an Iowa hunter might get to take 5 or 6 deer if you work all the seasons right . Quite a change from thirty or forty years ago ........

I always thought it was a cyclical sport, for the last several years it has been on the upswing. However last season & this one I haven't seen as many guys in the mountains. Maybe the economy has alot to do with it.

I'm with sdgunslinger on this issue. When I was a kid on the farm in Missouri, we rarely saw a deer -- and my brother and I spent a lot of time in the puckerbrush. I'm not sure anyone I knew had even heard of a wild turkey, other than as a Thanksgiving legend. Today...well, it's pretty astonishing.

In South Dakota, where I lived before moving to Alaska, you can hold more than 20 deer tags, if you apply for and receive everything available to you. And there are a few million acres of public land available to hunt.

It may well be true that hunting areas are becoming crowded in some locations. Nation-wide, however, I think we are in the greatest "good old days" of hunting that the USA has ever seen. There are more of many species than perhaps ever (whitetail deer, turkey, Rocky Mtn elk), and tremendous numbers of others. Transportation and a strong economy (don't believe what you read in the rags) makes hunting more game more accessible to more people than ever, in North America and Africa.

Just read through the posts on these forums to see just how much hunting we get to do. We are indeed fortunate.

I mentioned a topic similar to this a year ago and took a hammering. Mine was more of how the "normal" guy is squeezed out by non-resident competition. Same kind of idea I guess. I am pissed at how much money is getting involved in hunting. My bitch was the "trespass" fee being driven over the top by non-res hunters. I can swing a few hundred to up my chances and gain access to private land, but the few hundred dollar trespass is only a myth as the non-res/outfitters have moved the "trespass fee" into the thousands of dollar range.

I 'd like to ask why anyone cares about new hunter recuitment???? Why should I care if some Hoodrat gets the experience to to harvest a game animal???? I am certainly not recruiting anyone to my hunting holes! How I choose to raise my son is my buisness, and I will do everything I can to influence him into the outdoors, but to conciously worry about members or recruitment.....forget it.

I sort of thought that this would get more comments than it did. My read on this lack of interest in the topic is that most of the people on these forums just don't care how many hunters there are. Then you have some who wish all the hunters would go away.

In my area, hunting seems to have done a big switch from what it was in my youth. We used to do a lot of bird (quail, dove, grouse, some pheasant) and small-game (squirrel and rabbit) hunting with some varminting (fox, groundhog) spring turkey, deer (one per year regardless of method), and maybe run some bear and/or racoon with dogs. There were a lot of out-of-state hunters coming in to hunt deer.

Now, there's no birds but grouse an some dove and they're not as wide spread. There's fewer rabbits and groundhogs, more coyotes (where there were none). Only 10% of the number of out-of-state hunters and most seem to be black-powder hunters (not necessarily traditional).

A lot of farms have been turned over to subdivisions. Also, farmers in general won't allow me to hunt even though... they know me, I leave gates as found, don't disturb stock, do as I'm told, and share my kills (and they know all this because they've known me for over 30 years). It is their land and I don't have a complaint about what they do with it, this just points up how difficult it is, particularly for a new hunter, to find a place to hunt. I no longer have a bird dog, because there are no opportunities to bird hunt. Indeed, it seems my hunting is going downhill every year.

I think the article was pretty interesting and expalined some things to me. That we're tubing is pretty apparent to me. Hopefully I'll die a natural death before that happens.

Hunting has definately taken a turn. I believe you have several culprits here.

- I see more people on National forest,because they no longer have family ranches to hunt on. Either the ranch was sold,or they can't hunt the ranch because it leased to out of state buttfucks.

- Hunting on national forest is really nothing but a cold weather camping trip for many. Lack of game during gun seasons,turns into a drunk fest and road hunting experience. Kids don't get anything out of it,other then boredom. Those that do continue to hunt as adults,are a bunch of road hunting beer drinking assholes,that usually just burn out and stop hunting all together.

- By far The biggest problem hunting faces,is the current trend to pay any amount of money to hunt. Money and nonresident hunters have done more to fuck up hunting in america then anything else. In my area of the country,you could easily hunt private property for free up until the early 1980's. I had ranches to hunt,that the owners wanted you take more then one deer,elk or antelope per tag. They could care less about game laws. I actually had ranchers call and ask if I would hunt their property,because they wanted the big game thinned.

Change came when nonresidents started offering money to hunt,when in reality if they'd have kept their fuckin' mouths shut they could have hunted for free just like residents. But no, with the typical high roller attitude that the average out of state dipshit has,they just had to throw money around. Ranchers aren't totally stupid they jumped on the money. The dollar figures started at around $50 bucks and has inflated to thousands of dollars now. Its gotten so bad that you now have idiots paying $350 a day to shoot fucking prairie dogs. Last season I witnessed a situation that turned into a friggin auction on a county road. A rancher was fixing fence along a county road and within 500 yards of him,a couple hundred head of cows and calf elk were sunning themselves in the snow. Up pulls a dipshit from minnesota and proceeds to offer a grand for a cow,the rancher says no way,I like the elk on the property,while this idiot is standing there another truck pulls up from wisconsin and offers $3500. The rancher shook his head and said if you sonsabitches are that desperate to kill a cow elk,give me the $3500. The wisconsin dipshit ended up killing a calf elk. This is the future of hunting.

You'll hear all kinds of excuses for the trend to charge for hunting. Financial reasons,which do hold some water. To issues of cutting fences and leaving trash,all of which made some miracle appearance right around the time that nonresident assholes started offering money to hunt.Now ranchers have a guilty conscience for denying,those who they used to damn near beg to hunt their property,before money was to be made.

RMK,

I guess you need to look in a mirror. You're about the most foul-mouthed person I know (and I know some). You'd be a lot more believable if you just cut out the cussin'. As it is you come off as one of those people you're describing.

RMK's rant is just another example of "money talks and bullshit walks". He and Jesse are quite obviously folks that think they have a birthright to hunt on other people's property....for free.
FYI, I've talked to several game wardens in both Colo and WY. According to them, its not the out of staters that break the laws and trash the areas, it the locals.

I've seen numerous cases where it wasn't the locals that were shooting moose because they thought they were elk,but instead it was out of staters doing it. But at least the fuckers put their trash in a dumpster.

Hobie, I've been down on the coast fishing and just got back to find my copy of SH in the mailbox. Barsness makes an interesting case. I'm still digesting his article. You and I hunt the same part of the world and I have noticed the changes over the last 40 years. No doubt land use changes have had a significant affect on the presence of game most particularly small game but we are eaten up with deer. I think that as a society we have become more urban and kids these days have so many more options available. Travel is far more prevalent and everyone is in a hurry. Absentee land ownership is common and most of these new owners either buy the place to hunt or want no trespassers. What I think is happening is hunting is evolving and we just happen to be living in a time of rapid change. What we will look like in 20 years I dont know but I think we will be around. One thing I do know....what has value will be protected...what doesn't disappears. Fees may not appeal to everyone but they will keep the resource alive. One thing we better be prepared to do, however, is keep our act clean and remember we are being watched.

Mike in Lynchburg,

You make some good points. If money is to be made it will be preserved/improved/continued. So, we've got to pay. 40 years ago, it was, "Howdy Sir, can I hunt?" Can't do it that way now, even with folks who know me. They shuffle their feet, look at the dirt, and put me off as politely as they can. Oh well.

If you've got deer that need to be hunted, let me in on it! We don't see deer in the numbers reported elsewhere in the state. IMO, VA needs to use regional limits on deer, rather than the statewide system currently used. Yes, they make allowances for deer killed east of the Blueridge, but I think a little more detail in the management might be a good thing.

Quail were gone after the spring ice storm of 1978 (I think 1978, I was in the ROK). I've not seen 4 quail since coming home in 1981. Rapid habitat loss to subdivisions and industrialization in Rockingham and eastern Augusta, can't have helped.

Grouse and turkey are successes here.

Did you read the article on deer? I found that very interesting.