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Aaron, no need to apologize to me as I understand where you and Drummond are coming from. I've had nothing but bad experiences in Nm but in half a dozen meets in Co it's all been good. One of the wardens there helped me a great deal to find a spot I killed two 5X5 bulls in, unguided on my own(except for his help). I had a telling conversation many years ago with a waitress in a place my partner and I used to eat lunch at. We were bantering back and forth and I said I could arrest her for fishing w/o a license. She said she never fished or went near the river. I told her(joking) that if I told the judge she was fishing w/o a license then he would find he guilty. She cried foul. But it was pretty near the truth. My District Court judge married my wife and I, all of my hunting cases went before him. He KNEW for a fact I wouldn't tell even a small lie, and I knew he's be fair in decisions. I did lose a couple of cases before him, but I could see his point. I just didn't do my job well enough. My daddy whupped the lying out of me when I was a small lad and it has stuck to now. I'm 61 now and those early lessons have kept me straight thru life and work. I hate a crooked law officer more than most and one that will lie in court is as low as they come. Sorry ya'll had to go thru that. troy Birmingham, Al | |||
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Troy - That's why I am sorry for painting all GW's with the same brush, but man, personal experiences are what shape one's opinions. And my friend, in the past 20 yrs I have on several occasions seen an outrageous abuse of power by GW's. When our friend can face all that he was, without 1 oz of merit, and those responsible for his attempted prosecution have ZERO accountability - THAT'S A PROBLEM!!! | |||
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AAW - Man, you could NOT be more accurate on this one, and the fact that 99% of defendants CANNOT bring enough resources to bare - is EXACTLY what the LEO's/prosecutors in these cases are counting on!!!! Often times, they know there case is extremely weak or non-existent all-together, but they also know that in most cases the defendant cannot afford to fight it (certainly not for long). Their plan is simply to force the issue, knowing full-well the defendant will NOT likely be able to properly/financially defend himself, thus he will eventually plea bargain to a lesser charge. And guess what, VICTORY for the prosecution, and the defendant is the eventual loser - regardless of the real facts of the case. And as you point out, that's easy for the prosecution to do, when they have UNLIMITED resources, provided by the tax payer. This is exactly what happened with our friend, to a "T". The prosecution continued to offer him lesser and lesser charges, knowing full well they had NO case, if they had, and based on the seriousness of the charges, they would have offered him NOTHING! They hoped like hell the financial burden would be more than he could bare, and he would finally plea to a lesser charge, and they would have their victory. Thankfully for our friend, he had family/friends who were willing to help, and the REAL TRUTH prevailed!!!! But to me and Drummond, despite the fact that the case was baseless, with no facts. The worst thing was the 2-3 specific, full/out-right lies told by the LEO's on the stand. What they didn't know was, our buddy's attorney knew they had lied, and proved it!!!! They should ALL be charged for lying on the stand/wrongful prosecution, and our friend should be paid compensation for his time/money/stress he endured over the past 2 yrs, all for doing NOTHING more than being one of the best hunters I have ever known!!! His high-profile name in this state was nothing more than a target for LE, and they were gonna get him at any cost. If ever you're involved in a criminal case, make sure you have two things - alot of time and alot of money! Otherwise, you're gonna see just how un-just, the "Justice System" really is!!!! | |||
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And if your a Non-Resident, things are compounded that much more. The wrong messages are being spread all across the Law enforcement Community regardless of the agency and from what I have seen and experienced, that message is the Public is the enemy, and I only see it getting worse as time goes along. JM.02. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I have not seen the show the OP refers to. I have, however, watched Alaska State Troopers (I think that's the name) and was totally disgusted with the arrogance and condescension of the troopers/wardens. All contacts were going to be guilty of something, regardless of what they were doing at time of contact. Period. I have never been charged with any type of game violation, nor been ticketed for such, either criminal or civil. However, in hunting several states, I have NEVER met a GW that wasn't a total, arrogant JACKASS, that had no respect for the citizen, and several that tried their best to "suggest" some illegal conduct was occuring, when clearly none was. In each case the fact that I was always legal seemed to make them more angry and rude, or bitter. I'm sure there are good ones out there, and sure hope to meet one someday. He'll probably be riding a unicorn, and offer me money for a tooth! | |||
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As much as I find to support my beliefs about the way GW's and all of our various LEO's are becoming for lack of a better term more miltaristic in their attitude and actions with the Public, I can honestly state that I have only had one experience with a less than friendly GW and that was here in Texas, and that was about 15 or so years back. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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That's because it's a TV show. A show where GW's simply checked someone's license and said "have a nice day" in every encounter wouldn't attract many viewers. So they highlight cases where violations are probable and usually do exist. It's no different than the show "Cops." The purpose is to show what law enforcement folks have to contend with when supposedly doing their job. So they show incidents where crimes usually occur.
I believe that amounts to perjury. Did anyone suggest the GWs be charged with such? Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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***Tony---You are correct that they should be held accountable if what was stated is correct. However, it couldn't be done by the Prosecutor's Office where it took place, which would mean take it to the State AG. There lies the next problem when all these attorneys are in the same associations and support each other in their election bids. I would submit that it's a vicious circle that't hard to break and they know it and flaunt it! I saw plenty in my 30+ years as an Investigator with the MI Dept. of Agriculture in that it was who you knew and who you blew and many times it made me sick to my stomach that this is called a "justice system"! | |||
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Tony - That's correct, perjury! But, its up to law enforcement to charge others, including fellow law enforcement, with a crime - even perjury. So ya, good luck with that! Especially in what amounts to a very low-profile case, except to our friend/the defendant. As Topgun mentions, LE sticks together. My friend was just happy to get this behind him, and I don't blame him for that. He was vindicated, but at a considerable cost - personally, professionally, and financially! | |||
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I'm not a big conspiracy theory type and perhaps more than a bit naive, but... If "proved" was the reality, both the judge and the jury -- and everyone else at the trial -- would be aware that the perjury had occurred. Thus, it would be somewhat difficult to sweep it under the rug. IF, however, "proved" was an overstatement of what really occurred, and the defense merely cast doubt on the veracity of the witnesses WITHOUT any real proof to prove they lied, then perjury would be a tough charge to make stick. As you are well aware, lying on the witness stand occurs hundreds of times daily regardless of the Bible touching. But without concrete evidence to the contrary, the jury -- or judge -- is left to sort out the truth in their own minds. The Roger Clemens' deal with Congress is the perfect example. Once Andy Pettit, a key witness, changed his original testimony (and likely lied) as to what Clemens had told him, the perjury case against the latter fell apart. But no one but Clemens and Pettit actually knew what was said. In the Casey Anthony trial, it was PROVED beyond a doubt that her mother had perjured herself in regards to using her computer at work when she said she was elsewhere. Both an expert witness -- her boss -- and evidence from the computer nailed her. If I recall, the AG decided to not prosecute her, however, even though it would have been a slam-dunk case. Hypothetical: Murder suspect says he was at home with his wife at the time his supposed victim was killed. His wife gets on the stand and swears to that alibi. Scenario A: Defense tells the jury the wife is lying. They cite her past bouts with alcohol and drugs, and the fact she spent two years in jail for prostitution. They present no PROOF that she wasn't actually with her husband; all they can do is attack her credibilty, as is often done. Scenario B: The defense produces a CC receipt showing the wife used it at the No-Tell motel two states away at the time she claimed she was with husband. The desk clerk also IDs her and says she was there with some guy who isn't her husband. The evidence is enough to charge her with perjury because it PROVED she lied. Anyway, back to the reality... If I was your friend, I would have been contacting anyone, including the media, that MIGHT have been able to pursue the perjury issue. That's my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it!  Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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Think GW's are bad, try putting your life back together if Child Protective Services are ever called on you, or the county Humane Shelters. Don't matter how innocent you are, those folks will continue to harass you every chance they get,plus there is the price to your reputation especially in small communities. Most people just want to get out of the situation and put it behind them. i mean look at all the crap that went on in the ARPF with two former members and the  over shooting a dog.Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Had to chuckle a bit when I first read the above. Here in the Phx metro area, the media has been on CPS like flies on dog crap for years, claiming they don't do enough to protect abused kids. And they are right, for the most part. Because of heavy case loads, CPS often doesn't have the time or personnel to keep up. As a result, kids who had already come under scrutiny by CPS workers are later ignored. Many of them have been winding up in hospitals with severe injuries or dead, proving the adage, "where there's smoke, there's fire." And of course, everyone who is incarcerated in any of the nation's jails are all innocent and were framed.  BTW, I never even venture to the ARPF. There's enough name-calling, insults and derogatory comments here in this section to keep my plate filled.  Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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But you see that attitude right there, causes people to go with the "Guilty Till Proven Innocent" concept. Not every place is like the Phoenix Metro area. Also, it is not a case of how over worked or understaffed any agency is, it is the perception that the party in question is guilty, BEFORE the case is looked at. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems too many of todays LEO's are automatically assuming a person's guilt, BEFORE an investigation starts. It is awfully strange as to the number of cases where individuals have spent years in prison for crimes that DNA evidence proves they did not commit. Tony, do you honestly believe that LEO's are right 100% of the time? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Of course not. But I also don't believe most of them are out to get me either or that black helicopters are circling my house to get the goods on me. That said, I have great respect for any guy who has the guts to face what the cops on the street face everyday. The world has drastically changed over the last 40-50 years, and it has greatly affected how LEOs have to act or perhaps wind up in a body bags themselves. This is especially true in the larger cities where even a traffic stop for a minor infraction could lead to an LEO being assaulted or killed. Just watch how carefully a LEO now approaches a driver during any stop. Geez, in just the last few weeks here, cops have shot and/or killed several dudes during domestic violence calls. In all cases, they cops were attacked by the guy wielding some sort of weapon. Of course, a lot of the change has to do with the drug culture growth in this country and the huge amount of drug smuggling that is occuring, especially here in AZ. This is also what has a lot of GWs on edge in the field where they know nearly every encounter with a hunter will be with someone who has ready access to a firearm. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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Forgot to address this part: If we really think about it, that's the only way LEOs can operate. They aren't going to cite or arrest someone if they don't believe they are guilty of something. Of course, the perp will have "allegely" committed the crime. It's up to the COURTS to make the final decision of guilt or innocence. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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Gee Tony, I'm gonna guess you weren't present in the courtroom for the case, now were ya? But please, don't let that little fact stand in the way of your opinion as to the perjury claim I've made. Maybe Drummond, who was there for the entire trial, can fill us in, and clear up my confusion. | |||
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Right, I wasn't there. Have a good weekend. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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I agree with what you said Tony, and I will add that I have seen a lot of folks bring some of the grief they have experienced when dealing with a GW or other LEO, by getting an attitude when approached by the officer. But I also see LEO's that approach situations with a lot more intensity than is actually needed for the situation. My Dad was a small town cop and this was light years before drugs became a real problem, but he nearly got shot one night over a domestic dispute. Those always have been the most dangerous situation an officer can go into, nothing has changed on that. I also agree that GW's are the only LEO's that knowiongly deal with citizens that have ready access to firearms, but not all of them approach every situation as if they are going into a fire fight. I am talking about stuff like a routine border check a few years back here in Texas. Lora and I had spent the day down in Big Bend N.P. and were on our way back to the ranch where I do my javelina hunts. The check station sets out in the middle of nowhere and people on that road have no place to go except thru the check station. They have officers stationed a few miles from the check station and at night as you pass them headed to the statiion, they pull in behind you and follow you to the station. So here we were, me, Lora and three house cats in an F-250 Ford crew cab pick up with an open long bed with a couple of ice chests in it. The officer that comes up to a very well lighted cab is hispanic and he begins his interview, but everytime I shifted my body or moved my hand along the door frame, his hand dropped to his sidearm just like Bill Hickock. I had reached the point where I was fixing to tell him to either shoot me or keep his damn hand off that pistol. If I had of been a really bad man, he and all the other officers would have been dead before I got to the check station. Tony, I hunted just north of Nogales back in October and had to go thru at least one check station daily and not a single officer acted that damn spooked, and I can pretty well guarantee that kid had not seen any of the activity those guys in Arizona have seen or see. It is fine for an LEO of any kind to go into a situation prepared for trouble, but they do not have to do so aggressively. Conversely, a lot of citizens would be better served if they did not become offensive when approached by an LEO. JMO. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Somebody was damn sure lying! One instance that stands out was when one game warden that didn't have a lot to do with the case testified that they asked my friend where his mount was and he told them that it was in his house. The GW filed a report on this and testified to its accuracy under oath. They then brought in one of the lead investigators and when pressed as to why it took them over a year to execute a search warrant on his house from the time that report had been filed he said it was because "nobody knew where the mount was". This is the same GW that followed my friend from a function where the mount had been displayed to his home a year prior. My friends attorney pulled that out of him on cross examination. So in essence he admitted under oath that he knew where the mount was AFTER he testified that he didn't know where the mount was. He was lying through his teeth. They didn't execute the search warrant because they didn't want to do it yet! They wanted to mentally and financially break my friend to take a plea bargain by holding felony charges over his head. They know that if convicted of a felony he would lose his job and never be able to do what he had done for 19 years ever again. It's a disgusting practice but one that's used quite often. They didn't have a case against him and they knew it but when my friend called their bluff and told him that they'd see him in court their backs were against the wall. It's bullshit The most disgusting part was when they found out that my friend had his house for sale they had an investigator pose as a potential buyer and got the real estate agent to take him and show the house to him. This investigator took all sorts of pictures and basically searched the house without a warrant but I guess it's legal. It's pretty easy to tell whose lying as all of the potential witnesses are sequestered and don't know what each other is saying. You have 2 people testify to one thing and then the other guy tries to throw out a lame excuse you know he's not being honest. Apparently Game Wardens don't operate by the same set of rules that we have to. My friend probably won't ever speak about it just as I have a difficult time talking about my experience. There's always going to be at least one asshole that doesn't have any idea what they're talking about that wants to try to make you look the the bad guy. | |||
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Yup, the way the guy acted with you and Lora is exactly what I meant by how they now approach even routine traffic stops. It's been about 10 years since I have been pulled over for anything. The last time was by an AZ state cop on I-10 just outside Tucson. It was for speeding about 15 mph over. So he pulls in behind me, gets out and walks up to my vehicle. I watched in the sideview mirror as he sidled up close to the side of my truck with his hand near his sidearm. When he got to my window, which was already down, he slowly peeked in it. Seeing how he had approached, I had already put both my hands in plain view on the steering wheel. When he asked for my license, registration and insurance card, I told him they were all in my glove compartment. At that point, he asked if I had any firearms, which I didn't. He told me to get the stuff out, but I could tell he was more than a bit nervous. I couldn't see his hands, but I would bet one was on his gun. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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Sounds like perjury to me? But hey, I'm no writer! | |||
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I hate cops with attitudes as much as the next guy.....but with the scumbags we tolerate and treat with kid gloves in this PC country nowadays can you blame them? This country needs massive chain gang/prison work camps to deal with the legions of scumbags that don't belong in society. For example, can you answer how a POS like this is free? DEDHAM — A Dorchester man suspected in 200 break-ins — including burglaries in Natick, Needham and Boston — was ordered held without bail Tuesday because of charges he already faces in 17 open cases for crimes including aggravated rape and kidnapping. Craig Cromartie is well known to police. He’s been arraigned more than 300 times on similar charges. http://www.metrowestdailynews....e-held#ixzz1yWg6YUd2 | |||
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***And that is exactly why I said that our "justice system" sucks the big one!!! If he's been arraigned that many times, it means the LEOs were doing their job and either the Prosecutors or Judges/juries didn't do theirs! | |||
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I do not blame LEO's in general, but I do find fault with those individual officers that view everyone with the exact same set of criteria. When you are being as co-operative as possible, and in a vehicle that it would be damn near impossible to hide a field mouse in, and the dogs have done gave the all clear, why be as jumpy as hell and keep reaching for your sidearm? I respect LEO's and the job they do, for the most part. I lose that respect when they start abusing their power. Either let me go, or charge me with a crime, but quit dicking around with me just because they can. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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*** I would hope and imagine that most of us feel that way. I know I wouldn't want to be a LEO out on patrol anywhere by myself nowadays with as many drug loonies as there are running around and how quick things can happen even when things look normal. They just never know when they pull someone over even for a simple taillight infraction if that person is a felon with a weapon that will blast them in a heartbeat or what. I'd probably have my hand on my pistola too until I was certain everything was under control and there was no chance of something major occurring. | |||
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I started out as a Idaho Conservation Officer in 1967. At that time we were unarmed and as one of our asst. Directors said "Our Conservation Officers are friendly outdoor referees." In the late 1970's,two of our CO's were shot and killed by a Nevada resident illegally trapping in Idaho near the Nevada border. After that, we were armed and given biannual firearms training and we were required to attend the Idaho POST Academy. That changed Idaho game enforcement forever. Now Idaho officers approach hunters with the same amount of caution and attitude as any city or state policeman. Stops are taken more seriously and are more business like than they were before. Unfortunately, it is just a sign of the times. I have known two of our officers that followed the book and number of citations were their goals. Neither lasted long with our department. For the most part our officers look at what is the best approach to assure that the violator doesn't repeat. In some cases, a warning will do that job. In other cases the severity of the violation or the violators attitude require a much more severe outcome. GMs are no different that any other LE types, some are very good and others not so. Don't paint all of them with the same brush. If you have a complaint about one of them, report it to their department. 465H&H | |||
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that is exactly how I looked at the job. My job was to protect the resource and prevent it from being abused. Education of the young and SOME adults will work in some cases. If a verbal warning for a minor violation would work then do it that way. Gotta write a ticket to get their attention, do it. Need a heavy fine or possible jail time, talk to the DA and judge and get it done. A warden cannot catch any significant % of the violations that occur. My partner once figured we caught less than 5% of the violations that occured in our county. The answer is to be seen, and to catch and prosecute those habitual violators who left the house with the intent to commit a violation. Word gets around that ole Bob, the master poacher , was caught red handed by the warden. Makes those lesser violators think. I've always said that if the major violators don't think about the warden when committing violations the he isn't doing his job. You want them looking over their shoulder. troy Birmingham, Al | |||
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465H&Hm short story for you. Due to a shortage of officers I had two counties by myself for two years. I finally got an officer for Shelby Co, but he was YOUNG...and worse, looked REAL YOUNG. I knew he'd have trouble with some of the rednecks there. Before season I drove him around and introduce him to all the known violators, telling them that we had their names on a list and IF they violated in the upcoming season we'd arrest them. They really didn't like that at all. Several, all with multiple convictions, complained to the home office!!!! We had 20 names on the list and arrested 19 of them for various serious violations, night hunting, out of season, illegal deer, over bait, during the following season. We caught the 20th over bait in turkey season(march/april). Most of the time a warden is too tied up with regular patrols, answering complaints, etc to concentrate on individual habitual violators. We made a point to check them regular and it paid off, and sent a message to the habitual violators that they wern't as bulletproof as they thought. ALL habitual violators think they are smarter than the GW....they aren't, we just don't usually have the time to concentrate on them. troy Birmingham, Al | |||
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I get the sense that (as someone mentioned above) they overreact because since they catch so few serious violators they hammer you for nonsense.....and that pisses me the **** off. Forgetting your license in the truck or forgetting to sign across your duck stamp isn't the same as having illegal deer hanging in your shed or spotlighting/shooting deer....is it? | |||
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You are correct that they are not the same in seriousness of offense. In my case, unless there were extenuating circumstances the two less serious violations you mentioned would be warning offenses. On the not having a license in possession they would be issued a citation but if they took a valid license into the court, the charge would be dismissed. If a deer hunter left his tag in the vehicle, a citation would be issued as he could not place the tag on the animal immediately after the kill as required. On the duck stamp violation, I would make them sign it and issue a warning. troy, Excellent work on those 20 poachers. You two have every right to brag about that one.  465H&H | |||
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Well, there you have it.....warnings and citations for nonsense. The deer tag with a dead deer is one thing, but how about "let's go to your truck so you can show it to me" on the license.....again, BS harassment for nonsense. In a world where you can find out every intimate detail about an individual in a millisecond on state and federal computer systems there is no need for that crap. | |||
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Norton, A couple of things you might consider. First of all, GW's do not make laws. The state legislatures do that. The GW's also do not hammer people. The judges do that. Also the local prosecutors will have their say on when to cite or warn. I have been warned by a judge that he decides quilt and not me. We are limited by all of these officals on whether to cite or warn. If you do not like the law, get your legislature to change it and don't blame the GW. If the vehicle is close, no problem. If it is a two hour horse back ride away, I will cite. I don't want to lose four hours of valuable patrol time because he screwed up. Cell phone and internet access is mostly not available in the back country. 465H&H | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Norton: I loved the one where they hid in the bushes off some logging road in northern Maine to catch grouse hunters that loaded their shotguns before getting out of the truck. Great work guys. In the 80's there was a warden in the Rangeley Area in Western Maine who would put his new blaze orange hat in the middle of a dirt road to get hunters to stop, intent on picking up the hat. He'd leap from the bushes to check to see if guns were loaded. It was great fun to run over the hat!!! | |||
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Nah. If that's all there is and despite the likely biased reporting, it doesn't amount to perjury. Just like slander/libel, certain criteria need to exist for a "lie" to legally be considered perjury. I'd bet a lot of people aren't aware that legal perjury can also occur outside of a court room. In some cases, all it requires is a person's signature or attestment on a form or document. For example, if a person INTENTIONALLY provides false information to the IRS on a 1040, when he signs and mails it, he is guilty of false swearing -- i.e. perjury. Same goes for loan applications, forms filing for unemplyment, etc. Of course, when there is financial gain, they can also nail someone for fraud. I often see guys who hunt in AZ say they lie when completing the game survey cards AZG&F sends out. I'm not positive, but I don't think AZ enforces false reporting because filling out the cards is voluntary. But in some states, such as NM where certain harvest reports are mandatory, they take it a bit more seriously and will nail a person if he/she falsifies a hunt harvest report. I'm aware of at least one person who lost his privileges to hunt/fish for three years as a result. So it's a pretty severe penalty considering the Interstate Wildlife Violator Compact; the same revocation goes into effect in each of the member states. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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  The person who thinks he knows everything, shows just how little he really knows!!! | |||
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"Despite the biased reporting" says a guy that wasnt even there. Hello Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Kettle | |||
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When I lived in New England, I never hunted in Maine. After hunting in CA, TX, AK, TN, and AR, Maine hunting regs looked like a mine field. Isn't it a violation to even lean your rifle against the truck? Their regs are full of nanny state baloney. And, yet, you read the papers in the fall and maybe they NEED those regs. Remember that jerk that shot the woman in her back yard while she was hanging laundry - he saw a flash of white and figured it was a whitetail? Dave | |||
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It would have been genuinely funny and maybe even a little classy for said game warden to run and rescue his hat upon hearing the pickup accelerate to hit the hat and then wave or doff the headgear in greeting as the motorist passes. An advantage that I can see in living in a small remote town is that the law enforcement personell all knows everyone and everyone knows them. Game wardens and municipal cops aren't allowed to miss behave because they are literally held accountable by their neighbors. | |||
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A7Dave.....yes, it's against the law to lean a loaded rifle against a vehicle and the assholes enforce it. I hunt a lot in both MA and NH, sometimes in the same day.....you need to be a lawyer to differentiate the laws. For example, your shotgun can be loaded while under power in your boat while duck hunting in MA but the same gets you a ticket in NH 1 mile away, and so on. They'll ticket you for CARRYING another person's duck back to the truck! Steadfast rule: be polite but NEVER trust a game warden and NEVER offer information. Scott.....you hit the nail on the head about cops having no connection to the community they work in nowadays. Most cops are from different towns and there are no repercussions for treating the people you supposedly serve like shit. I sympathize with cops having to deal with scumbags all day and night.....but I don't expect to be treated like some asswipe smoking a cig and his hat on sideways when I accidentally roll through a stop sign once every ten years. | |||
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***It's even against the law in MI to lean an unloaded gun against a vehicle. I learned that in talking with a friend one day who told me a friend of his got a ticket from a GW who was notorious for not using any common sense in his enforcement. It would seem as if a verbal warning would be sufficient for that type of infraction that isn't even in the G&F website of rules & regulations! | |||
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