Try ordering a simple gun from their Custom Shop, nothing engraved or unusual. You will wait and wait and wait far beyond the date you are given for delivery.

Has anyone seen a .300 WSM rifle from them? This cartridge was announced last year and I've yet to hear of a major distributor that has some in any quantity. The Brownings have been out for awhile.

Examined a recently made Model 70 lately? The trigger guard looks as if it was worked over with a ballpeen hammer and then anodized. Some rifles have bluing salts all over them. The barrel bedding is atrocious almost without exception: neither free-floated nor pressure bedded, the barrel lies unevenly in the channel, alternately binding and floating. Accuracy is ho-hum and fouling is heavy.

They "redid" the Model 70 and had the potential to have a really good rifle. Instead, it appears they are trying to compete with Savage and now the quality has gone down the tubes.

Here's what I'm going to do about it: I'm going to hit various gunshows and used gunracks at at gunstores. I'm going to hand-pick another dozen or so Model 70's with good, basic actions that haven't been butchered or altered by amatures. These I'll strip for the actions, then I'll sell the barrels and stocks for whatever the market will bear. I'll then grease and store the actions for future custom projects.

In recent years, I've had D'Arcy Echols build custom rifles on Model 70 "Classic" actions, and the results have been fantastic. He knows (just possibly) more about the Model 70 than the people that designed it, and by the time he gets through reworking one of these actions, it's a different critter altogether. His prices are just slightly higher than Winchester's Custom Shop (for his fiberglass-stocked version) and his product is ten times as good.

I'm not going to wait for Winchester to reinvent its act yet again- I'm going to employ gunsmiths, especially Echols, who do the job right from the ground up right now, here in the present. I can't think of a better solution, quite honestly......

AD

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'Trapper'

Funny thing is all the years that I shunned Weatherby's, yet my new Ultra Lt Wt is the first factory rifle I have bought in many years that is pretty near right from square one. Other than a slightly heavy trigger (crisp though!) its pretty darned near perfect.

Allen......Have a line on a pre 64 .300 H&H , 26" barrel that was fired maybe 4-6 times then put away about 50 years ago!! A cool grand is the asking price. Been trying to run this old guy down and firm this up for the past two months. WHAT a great classic rifle for my next plains game hunt!

Frank N.

A fifty year old Model 70 in .300 H&H would be a real find, especially one that's been shot so very little! I like Model 70's made between 1950 & 1956 the best of all. They were updated just enough in terms of the safety profile, etc., to make them modern, yet they still exhibit the quality of materials and workmanship to make them really special.

I can't think of a much nicer plainsgame rifle than a pre-64 '70 in .300 H&H. Keep after that rifle! I'll bet it's a shooter, too. Most of them are........

Regards,
Allen

Brad

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"Don't let so much reality into your life that there's no room left for dreaming."

Try Bart Miller at Gunworks of Colorado. They're in Lakewood - phone is 303-986-9412. He'll take some time because he's usually pretty busy but I have used him several times and his work is excellent.

Major surpirse: the CZ550! The fit and finish, overall appearance, controlled feed, solid action, decent checkering - a macho kinda' gun at a price under Rem or Win.

This exercise was an overall pleasant surprise, and as a result I don't think any of our present manufacturers are going to the dogs, just a glitch once in a while as some IE (maybe a Clemson grad) or some such trys a new productivity scheme. Happens everywhere. Buying a new one right now? A quality hunter? Hummmm...maybe the A-Bolt, or the CZ.

Cosmetically many Winchesters look fine, although I have seen too many horrific looking triggerguards and bluing salts to say that it is a fluke. The other problems are even more severe: poorly fitted inletting and bedding, slow delivery, misplaced orders. And lately customer service has been bordeline nasty. Perhaps they are overwhelmed.

But the real problem is lack of consistency. For an extra $50-$100 the guns could be nearly perfect. Here's an example:

My dealer called to say he had a M70 Featherweight .300 WSM just come in. The wood had very very nice figure and cosmetically it was beautiful. But the channel and bedding was a horror show.

I bought the gun, and did some light sandpaper on the stock. After removing the highs and lows and rubs and bedding runovers and general inconsistency in channel, there remained a pressure point near the forend tip and the rest free-floated.

I took it to the range today and after their recommended break-in regimen, the factory 180 grain Power Point load ahot three 3-shot groups averaged 0.53" center-to-center. It is really great!

But why should I have to go through all that? Take a Weatherby out of the box and no work needs to be done to it and it shoots. I guess Winchester is competing for the Savage market.

Take a look at the 2001 Gun Test annual issue. They absolutely pan the model 70 stating that they were getting 7 inch groups with the test rifle! Needless to say I was shocked. I also love model 70's.

Headhunter, I can't imagine Win. sending an untested rifle to "Gun Tests" (don't doubt that they did) - that was not only poor quality control, but stupid!

Just picked up my little 6 horse Johnson at the shop - kill switch died. Bad quality control? Yep. All Johnsons bad? Don't think so. While there (a full service sporting goods retailer) I asked the question (surprise, surprise!), "Which guns have the best/poorest quality out of the box?" Answer, "Best - Weatherby, Browning: but all of the higher dollar guns are pretty much equal." I don't own a Weatherby, never had one, probably never will, but that was the answer, and it seemed to support my 40 gun observation yesterday.

What I was attempting to address in my original post was the apparent and current quality of several gun makers. From what I have been able to gather in my UN-SCIENTIFIC but somewhat thorough look-see was that it ain't that bad. Would I like to see some improvement, particularly in the wood to metal fit? Yep. Poor quality pops up most everywhere from time to time: Firestone, GM had to recall ALL of it's new SUVs before they really hit the street, Ford, infant car seats, toasters, Marlin...and remember the '57 Plymouth?

What I reported was as 'honest to God straight' as I could make it. I just hate to see a fine company trashed on an issue that may just be passing through. Let's all hope that quality isn't a dying notion as we need the competition out there fighting for our dollars. And I'd be surprised if these threads are not being observed by someone in the industry.

Hey, wait a minute! It occurred to me that I was aghast at trashing Winchester, but left Savage go naked. So, back to the gun-shop.

Any of you picked up a new Savage Scout? Quite a nice package. And I think we'd look hard and far to find a more accurate out-of-the-box shooter than the Savage Tactical. Savage provides fine firearms for a special niche of hunters/shooters, and I've detected more than a little interest in Savage among the long range shooting group. And at most any yardage I'd doubt the 6X6 stag wouldn't know the difference whether that bullet came from a Savage .338 or a $3,000 custom Goodling. Point is there's room for both, and most everything in between. Thanks for indulging my long winded dissertation. I'll try to do better.

I sent an old vanguard back to WBY because we cracked the std stock, because they didn't have anymore Vangurd Stocks they installed a new Mark V deluxe stock for free.

I had a 270 wby that began to shoot poorly, returned it to wby, they put a brand new stock on it, again for fee.

I have owned all there is to own and have had a lot of stuff break, WBY has been the best manufacturer as far as customer service is concerned.

I sent two brand new wincheter model 70's back to them a while ago, one had a crack (270) the other had the worst floorplate I had ever seen (264). I have yet to see the rifles, they were sent for repair last Novemeber, I called Winchester and they were less then helpful, finally I got word I would get them back in a month.

Additionally I have had many friends with teh same negative WInchester experinces.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill (edited 06-04-2001).]

I think that the Model 70 appeals to a certain type of hunter who appreciates the design of the action and the stock, as well as the Winchester mystique. I'm betting that most of the guys in this market segment wouldn't mind paying another $100-$200 if USRA would take greater pains with this rifle and put more refinement and tuning into it.

AD

quote:

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Originally posted by allen day:
I'm betting that most of the guys in this market segment wouldn't mind paying another $100-$200 if USRA would take greater pains with this rifle and put more refinement and tuning into it.

AD

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Right on Allen !

And they can start by spending an extra $5 when they stamp out the magazine box on their press, to add a rib on either side at the case shoulder to prevent the rounds from sliding forward on recoil.

[This message has been edited by KuduKing (edited 06-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by glenn (edited 06-07-2001).]

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Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

I purchased a model 70 about a decade ago, after two bedding attempts a gunsmith told me the wood used had not matured and to put it away for a few years.

I did this, then had it lapped, bedded and crowned- it is now one of the most accurate rifles I own.

I know of others with similar experiences.

Much as I love the Model 70, If you want something to shoot out of the box you are probably better off buying a Remington 700!