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Outfitters and the Minimum Wage
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Picture of Scott Powell
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Why does this not surprise me...

Executive Order 13658 Raising the Minimum Wage to $10.10 per Hour for Outfitters and Others under Federal Permit

On October 1, 2014, the Department of Labor issued final regulations to implement Executive Order 13658, which, starting January 1, 2015, increases the minimum wage to $10.10 per hour for businesses operating under NEW federal contracts and “contract-like instruments”. The rule applies to new permits issued on or after January 1, 2015, including Forest Service and BLM outfitter and guide permits and National Park Service contracts and Commercial Use Authorizations (CUA).

The Forest Service has determined the rule will apply to permit renewals issued after January 1, 2015 regardless of when the application was submitted. The Forest Service Washington office erroneously says they are required to put the Department of Labor’s standard contract clause on all 2015 permits. Many permittees up for renewal are unaware of these new minimum wage requirements and have not factored increased labor costs into their trips. NPS is already putting the language on CUA’s. The BLM has not yet implemented the rule.

Safari Club International and the American Wildlife Conservation Partners will be approaching Congress for Legislative relief for outfitters operating on Federal lands.

http://huntforever.org/2015/03...-usfs-and-blm-lands/


"At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein
 
Posts: 893 | Location: Akron, OH | Registered: 07 March 2006Reply With Quote
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I wonder how they calculate the hours worked during a hunt by a guide.


Frank



"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money."
- Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953

NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite

 
Posts: 12603 | Location: Kentucky, USA | Registered: 30 December 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of Crazyhorseconsulting
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That is about as stupid as it gets.

Guides/Outfitters don't punch time clocks.

Just another case of the government trying to regulate something it knows nothing about.


Even the rocks don't last forever.



 
Posts: 31014 | Location: Olney, Texas | Registered: 27 March 2006Reply With Quote
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So, how many of you would work for less than 10 bucks an hour? 16 hour days?
 
Posts: 289 | Location: Western UP of Michigan  | Registered: 05 March 2007Reply With Quote
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Here's to our goverment moon
99.999% of them (goverment) couldn't do a guides job!!!
 
Posts: 847 | Location: Wyoming | Registered: 13 March 2005Reply With Quote
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Todd

Great point!! Do I have to pay my guides 24 hours a day, since they don't go home after the day is done??

Steve
 
Posts: 847 | Location: Wyoming | Registered: 13 March 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of Thunder Head
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quote:
Originally posted by youp50:
So, how many of you would work for less than 10 bucks an hour? 16 hour days?


This thinking (entitlement)is one of the problems with our society. If your not happy with the wage don't take the job. If you agree to take the job, don't bitch about the pay. If you don't like your job or pay do what it takes to get a better one.


I have walked in the foot prints of the elephant, listened to lion roar and met the buffalo on his turf. I shall never be the same.
 
Posts: 813 | Location: In the shadow of Currahee | Registered: 29 January 2009Reply With Quote
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Exactly Thunder Head. Sad you had to point it out but I guess it's a reflection of where we're headed as a society.
 
Posts: 2717 | Location: NH | Registered: 03 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
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I have no idea what a guide makes per day. But let's assume that a 16 hour day is not unommon and that the last 8 were at time and a half and just call it $10/hr that means guide wages would be about $200/day on the typical hunting day.

The simplest solution maybe to declare your guides as exempt/salaried employees and pay them a flat fee for the season. Since the guide has tremendous autonomy during the day on how he/she performs their work and is not directly supervised it may be an approach.


Mike

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10096 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Thunder Head:
[QUOTE]
This thinking (entitlement)is one of the problems with our society. If your not happy with the wage don't take the job. If you agree to take the job, don't bitch about the pay. If you don't like your job or pay do what it takes to get a better one.


A big problem here in the UK as well, people going on strike with the backing of the unions, I am of the same opinion as you sir, if you don't like your work, conditions and/or pay then simply get another job after all we live in a free society.
 
Posts: 174 | Location: Cumbria | Registered: 30 July 2008Reply With Quote
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I am glad that most on this board are thinking reasonably. The last thing we need is more government regulations!

If one does not like a job, do something else. Expecting someone to "subsidize" your income is one of our biggest problems.

Low wages are a great motivator to get a better education, better training, and an incentive to improve.

Having said this, I admire and commend Outfitters and Guides for doing something they love! I really do hope that you make a great living!
 
Posts: 2648 | Location: Utah | Registered: 23 February 2011Reply With Quote
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Picture of Pa.Frank
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The government doesn't really care what they make... they care what they REPORT!

by assigning a minimum wage, they can the extrapolate out what they "should" be earning, per hunt and TAX them accordingly!

It's all about the MONEY!


NRA Benefactor.

Life is tough... It's even tougher when you're stupid... John Wayne
 
Posts: 1964 | Location: The Three Lower Counties (Delaware USA) | Registered: 13 September 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by youp50:
So, how many of you would work for less than 10 bucks an hour? 16 hour days?


And maybe not get paid in the end. Common story ,here in Canada.

Grizz


Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man

Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln

Only one war at a time. Abe Again.
 
Posts: 4211 | Location: Alta. Canada | Registered: 06 November 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of Crazyhorseconsulting
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quote:
So, how many of you would work for less than 10 bucks an hour? 16 hour days?


Can YOU show PROOF that ANYONE is FORCED to do that?

We are waiting.


Even the rocks don't last forever.



 
Posts: 31014 | Location: Olney, Texas | Registered: 27 March 2006Reply With Quote
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Many guides work as contractors. They work by the day,tips and meals, not by the hour and supply their own trucks, quads, optics and other gear. Anything even remotely related to hunting is a write-off.

Or the other way of looking at it is many are working for cash, declaring nothing or next to nothing, collecting in employment at the same time and are flying under the radar. Suuuurrrrreeee they declare those tips as income.

Not every example applies to every guide, but I'd say that a minimum wage rule is likely a way of getting some tax money out of a some of them.
 
Posts: 1928 | Location: Saskatchewan, Canada | Registered: 30 November 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Grizzly Adams:
And maybe not get paid in the end. Common story ,here in Canada.

Grizz


Seems like a dangerous way to conduct business.....on multiple levels. I reckon folks up that way don't take kindly to not being paid for work they've done.
 
Posts: 2717 | Location: NH | Registered: 03 February 2009Reply With Quote
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I would think the best thing a guide can do is to make his service commensurate with what the client thinks his service is worth. If you have a client who drags in 300 bucks an hour sitting on his dead ass pushing paper and begrudges you ten bucks an hour, give him the service he deserves. A couple of minutes effort per hour should do it or maybe print up a vitual experience for him. This way, you can give him the a product of the same sort of intirnic value as what he produces.
The truth is, most guides spend their time guiding because they like the experience and for many, the pay is incidental. They still appreciate some respect though.
Norton, It happens. Not guiding (where I was well treated by the outfitter) but I have spent a month bucking logs only to have the contractor steal away into the night without paying. It was quite difficult and took some time and searching to rectify that situation. Regards, Bill
 
Posts: 3577 | Location: Elko, B.C. Canada | Registered: 19 June 2000Reply With Quote
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I am with Thunderhead: This was taught to me by by father and by me to my sons.
 
Posts: 1074 | Location: Mentone, Alabama | Registered: 16 May 2005Reply With Quote
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