In years past expanding bullet ment "spitzer". Lead showing on tip. All that is in the Utah proclamation, at least as far as I can see is the word "expanding". Things have really blurred in the past half dozen years.

I see posts of people using Hollow point bullets on Game animals, surely this doesn't qualify as a hunting bullet does it? I hate to see large shallow cavities on game animals, shot with hollow point or bullets that are made to light for the game animal your after.

I've used Barnes (solid copper) on elk. Head-on shot at about 200yds. Bullet was recovered just past the diaphram. Took heart and lung. Elk went nowhere. Super looking mushroom. However, I also shot a muley, broadside, 75yds. with the same bullet. Straight pass thru. Shot was placed just behind the shouldblade about an 1". I took the deer but not the way I'm use to. I went back to my BTSP Sierra.

Where do you draw the line between a bullet that doesn't expand and one that expands or disintegrates upon contact. I'm not saying Barnes are great bullets, it just that in some circumstances all you get is a caliber hole straight thru.

Who's got the answer?

How a bullet expands depends on what it hits and how fast it"s going. Here in the UK, the law defines bullets suitable for hunting as "designed to expand in a predictable manner".
I suspect that when you hit the muley through the upper body/rib cage, you did"nt punch through anything more than a rib or two(did you hit any ribs at all?),
So the hard, tough, bonded bullet did what it was meant to do and stayed together. If you had hit the deer in the shoulder, or at an angle, then the bonded bullet would have "came to life" and started to expand. I made the mistake of using Grand Slam on big red stags, and had the same problem. I sell a lot of deer carcases, and i will only shoot them through the heart/lungs (behind the "elbow" of the front leg 1/3 of the way up). After getting poor expansion with the tough bullets, i went back to Hornady soft points. A mate talked me into trying Hornady SST"s, and i shot my first deer with an SST a few days ago. I"m impressed with them. Not a real tough bullet, and left a big exit with blood everywhere. Bear in mind that the further out you shoot a deer, tough bonded bullets will expand less and less as velocity drops off.
There are hollow points that are suitable for hunting, and they expand well so long as you match bullet weight, calibre etc to expected game.
I think too many people fall for the thinking that you need bonded or premium ammunition to shoot deer when good old lead soft points will actually perform better if you hit them right.
(i"m not suggesting you did"nt hit your muley right, just that you could have saved yourself a few cents, and probably stopped him quicker!)
good shooting

quote:

Originally posted by AI22-250:
I see posts of people using Hollow point bullets on Game animals, surely this doesn't qualify as a hunting bullet does it?

As far as adhering to the "letter" of the Utah proclamation (which was desinged to prevent people from using FMJ ammo) it certainly does qualify as a hunting bullet. Interestingly, Idaho has no such regulation and I used solids on a pair of black bears a few years ago. Two dead bears within a very short distance...amazing how well those .416 diameter holes bleed eh! I think you might also be more specific about what you mean by "hollow point" bullets. I assume you are talking about something like the Sierra Match King which, by the way, has been the subject of many LONG debates here (and has also killed a fair bit of game). I think Saeed used it a bunch after the debates here and I took about a dozen head of game with that bullet on my first safari.

As for Barnes bullets, I use them occasionally in my .416 and will continue to do so (though I practice with Hornadys). I have shot a bunch of NA and African game with the X-bullet and never had a performance problem. Perfect mushroom under the offside skin of an eland, perfect mushroom found under the chest skin of a buchbuck after a texas heart shot, pass through on several impala and small antelope that all dropped at the shot or within 10 yards etc. I see no reason not to use them in lighter rifles either though I do think people need to be careful to push a bullet only at the "designed for" velocity.

JMHO,

John

This is just my opinion, but I believe that you should use a bullet designed for the job you want it to do. For deer sized animals at moderate velocities, soft point bullets like the Sierra Game King boattail are just fine, but when it comes to the hot magnums, they fail miserably especially on large game. As a general rule, I use a better quality bullet for larger game on a sliding scale from the baseline of Nosler Partition/Speer Grand Slam for elk sized animals, and a premium bonded core bullet like Swift A-frame, Barnes X, or Trophy Bonded for larger and african animals. For the truly big and nasty stuff, that is a whole nother ball game and expanding bullets would not be the optimum choice for some shots.
Here is a photo of two bullets recovered from game taken in New Zealand last week. The one on the right is a Nosler Partition and the one on the left is a Speer Grand Slam. Both expanded and both killed the target animal with one shot properly placed.

This second photo is self explanatory:

Spitzer just means 'pointed' ,nothing else. Target 'hollow points' -the hollow point is there for different reasons ,it's not there to make it expand. Hunting hollow points and hunting soft points are designed to expand.But you have to choose the bullet that will expand and penetrate properly for the game you are hunting.

OR you could just use nosler partitions for everything in NA.

George, I am taking AccuBonds to NZ. Thar, Chamois, Feral Goats, Boars and Arawapa sheep. What is your opinion after your hunt. My Fallow deer in the UK took a lot of killing, how was yours?

Ed, I have never used Accubond bullets. They have a bonded core like the Speer Grand Slam, so I suspect they will do just fine. Both Thar and fallow bucks are tough critters. You have to hit them well, but then, you know that. I felt that my handloads with Speer Grand Slam bullets worked very well, so anything of comparable quality should do OK.

The one advantage the accubonds seem to have over the Speer GS is the polymer tip. I have had great accuracy with the Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets, but have not used them on anything bigger than PA whitetails.

It was late last night when I deceided to post the question about "hollow point" bullets. I didn't explain myself very well.

A couple of points, I didn't mean to say that the Barnes bullet doesn't perform well, just that when it didn't hit anything other than flesh it didn't expand. The channel it cut was just caliber all the way thru. I'm use to an animal being dropped on the spot and this animal showed no signs at all of being hit, was just a little disconserting. Any time that I intend to hunt a heavier bodied animal I chose a premium bullet. Barnes, Nosler, I hate to show you how many Nosler boxes are on my shelf, half gone, different calibers.

With that said, I still have a problem with "lightly constructed" TNT type bullets being used on game animals, I've seen to many animals with shoulder shots that have an 8" hole with absolutly no penetration. The few times I've seen animals hit with them, it hasn't been a clean kill.

I guess more than anything, I simply wanted to generate a discussion.

This Bullet came from an elk I shot w/ Rem700 270win. 140gr Barnes - nearly head on shot, took heart, lungs and stopped just this side of hide on far side. Did it's job well
The bullet weighed 140gr to start - 139.7 after recovery, that's retained weight.

Thanks, Mike

Yes and I knew spitzer was a type of bullet, I didn't explain myself well.

patrky you are right about choosing the right bullet to match your cartridge as well as your game. I am gravitating more & more to the Nosler Partition for everything, especially when I expect impact vel. to be above 2600fps or so. The exc. NorthFork is another tht would be high on my list of "all round" bullets.
BTW, the Speer GS is no longer bonded or dual core. They changed them several years ago. The jacket us thicker & the lead is hotcore, but not bonded.

Gidday Die Ou Jagter,

You didn't mention what you are going to be using here calibre wise.

Most of the animals here are pretty thin skinned. The toughest animals of those you mentioned are the Thar and Arapawa Ram and they are easily taken with a speer hotcore in all calbres including and above 243 win.

Feral goats are really hard to put down if you are using a controlled expansion bullet. They are just too light to get any expansion from such projectiles.

150 grain Nosler BTs and Corelocts out of my 30-06 sail straight through. They do kill but only after much screaming and gnashing of teeth on the part of the poor animal.

I find 110gr hps or 130 speer hps much more reliable killers.

Same goes for Chamois though a 150 gr ballistic tip seems to work well here also.

Again your calibre will dictate what you will need for bullets but premium big game bullet really aren't needed. Any thing that will reliably drop a 200lb whitetail is all that is required really.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

Just because it's a hollowpoint doesn't automatically make it a varmint bullet. Out of standard rounds, and/or a better way to put it is, at speeds it was DESIGNED for, they can be quite effective. I've used HP & HPBT's on deer within these guidelines and have nothing bad to say about them. The Sierra and Hornady's will drop deer with the best of them.

Usually when folks get poor performance it's due to pushing the bullets faster than they were designed for, or was poor shot placement to begin with.

You should try some, you may like them. Nate

Oh, and don't forget, Failsafes and Barnes X are HP's! They're almost too tuff!

BigNate --
As far as I know neither Sierra nor Hornaday recommend any HP or HPBT for use on any Deer.

If you've had good luck, good for you, but I will not chance risking an unclean kill, or a hugh mess by using a hollow point for any Game animal.

It just doesn't make sense, when there are so many bullets that meet your needs available.....

I don't want to get anyone upset, it's just my choice not to use them....

Also If your Hunting in California you might want to read the Calif. Regs, regarding legal bullets for big game, here it is ----

§353. Methods Authorized for Taking Big Game.

(a) Except for the provisions of subsections 353(b) through (g), title 14, CCR, big game (as defined by section 350, title 14, CCR) may only be taken by rifles using centerfire cartridges with softnose or expanding bullets; bow and arrow (see section 354, title 14, CCR, for archery equipment regulations); or wheellock, matchlock, flintlock or percussion type, including "in-line" muzzleloading rifles using black powder or equivalent black powder substitute, including pellets, with single ball or bullet loaded from the muzzle and at least .40 caliber in designation.

AI22-250, So am I to believe that HP bullets do NOT expand? Is this what you are trying to say?

The regs' clarify that you are not to use a solid non-expanding bullet. They specify softnose or expanding.

I have not called them to ask, but am quite sure the Sierra Gameking is for hunting game. Hornady lists the 120gr .257" HP as a "traditional hunting" bullet. I don't see any need to call them.
As for poor performance, I've used them and don't think they are any "softer" than most soft points. In fact in the 7mm the 160's seem tougher than the softs. I have taken deer with them ( Mulies and Blacktail) and have had as good of performance as with any other standard bullet.
As I said, just because it's a HP design doesn't make it a varmint bullet. There are .25 cal HP's that are thin jacketed and for varmints, but the 120gr version isn't one of them.
When you blanket all HP bullets as poor performing on game you've made a blunder. The Barnes X, XLC, TSX, and CT's Failsafe are also HPs. Are they poor performers on game?

Like everything else in life, there are boundaries. If you've not used them then you can't judge them. If you miss use them, they may not perform as well as they will when used properly. If you load a softpoint bullet at velocities above it's designed range it to will perform poorly.
I just wanted to point out there may be some good choices you've overlooked because of your opinion. Did you miss the Matchking thread? There are some game bullets that do have a hollow point. Nate

I have to disagree with you completely regarding the Barnes bullets, I've had miserable luck with them. Straight thru shots on Elk, same size hole going in and out, hell that's not any good. If you don't hit Bone, you don't get much expansion. I think they have gone to far on the "controlled expansion" side. Their shop is just a few miles south of me. Very Nice.

I've gone ahead and e-mailed Sierra regarding the GameKing and MatchKing bullets, just to see what they have to say. I'll post the reply, one way or the other, as soon as I get it.

My Utah proclamation reads the same way yours does, "expanding bullet". I have talked to the Utah Wildlife people and the MatchKing is not legal for Big Game in Utah. I'm trying to find a e-mail address for the California wildlife people, failing that, I'll call them. I'll let you know what they say, again, one way or another.

I just hate to see a Deer laying on the ground with an 8" hole in a shoulder, hair, tissue, etc. everywhere and the animal still alive. Thin skinned HP's have no place in the field, at least as far as my experience shows me. Sorry. Again, I'm not trying to upset anyone, and I agree there has to be give and take based on your experiences. I did miss the MatchKing thread, how long ago was it? I'll do a search,

You've told me you have good expiences with the MatchKing, have you recovered any of the bullets? Are they mushroomed or do they come apart. I'm open to anything that gets me out further and works..... I love long distance hunting.

Thanks, Mike

I personally have not used Matchkings for hunting. There was a Loooonngg thread about using them though. I have used the Gamekings and Hornady's and have had a mix of pass throughs and not. Much the same as the softpoint Gamekings. I haven't saved bullets to show off, guess maybe I should. Of the few recovered, most had expanded quite a bit, and were similar to other standard construction bullets in appearance.

Have you had an 8" hole in a shoulder of a deer from a HP?

I took an elk with a 200gr Barnes X through the neck at very close range with my .338WM and the entry was about diameter sized while the exit was closer to thumb hole sized. I have used 250gr since, and currectly have been using Woogliegh PP. Way better for elk I think.

I use whatever I'm in the mood for for deer. usually one of the .25 cal's. Deer don't seem to be as hardy as elk, and smaller bullets seem more fitting to me. I used my .25-06 this last year to take a blacktail. My choice was a 115gr Barnes XLC and it worked fine. I also dragged around a Mod 600 in .308W loaded with 180gr RN 's quite a bit, just because it's handy.

Whatever works, Nate

Nate, I did have the oportunity to see an animal, a Deer hit in the shoulder with a HP. It took the fellow half an hour to find the deer, it wandered off in the trees and layed down. When he did the animal was laying a large pool of blood with the hole in the shoulder. He finished the animal off. But that's the first and last time I'll be in camp with someone using HP's to hunt with. Again, I've seen other bullets "fail" too. but this was ugly. Like I said before, the Barnes I used to kill an elk, a XLC, I think that's the correct nomenclature. the Coated x-bullet in the .277dia. 140gr.. I hit just behind the shoulder an inch no bone was hit and the exit was nearly the size of the entrance. Again the animal died, but not the way it should happen. The exact same thing happened when I loaded some 150gr. .308win loads for my son's first deer hunt. He hit the animal in what I'd consider a perfect point, again just behind the shoulder, it knocked the animal down, but didn't kill it. When we got up to it, he had to finish it off. It upset him to see the animal alive after he did his part. Not the best outcome on a teens first hunt. So, I'll stick to traditional contruction on bullets, yes I'll probably have failures, but I don't think as many, do you?

Nate

Here is the reply straight from Sierra Bullets regarding the use of the "MatchKing Bullet"

Mike,
Matchkings are thin jacjeted match bullets that meet the Oslo Accord as non expanding bullets suitable for war.
The 120 HP is seldom recommended other than for faster guns than the 25-06 such as the 257 Wby. for heavy deer
as encountered in parts of Canada.
Dave
Dave Brown (dave@sierrabullets.com)

I was NOT reffering to Matchkings as a recommendation. Just pointing out there are those who do.

I contacted Dave Brown myself and asked for some input as well as the concerns about construction, and velocity recommendations. Here was his respose:

Hi Nathan,
Use of hollow-points is normally misunderstood by a very large percentage of shooters, hunters and combatants.
What we do not often recommend is our match bullets for hunting. Their hollow-point is very small, the jackets
very thin. They tend to act like full metal jackets. These are MatchKings.

We do make hunting hollow-points which we call GameKings, meaning hunting bullet with a boat-tail.
For the most part, GameKing hollow-points act tougher than their Sierra counterpart, the spitzer (pointed-tip)
boat-tail GameKings. By tougher, I mean that their expansion is more retarded, resulting in more penetration
and smaller in diameter longer wound channels.

GameKing refers to both varmint and medium to heavy game bullets with boat-tails.

Velocity window? I've not seen a set of those for our bullets that I agreed with in spite of the myriad
illustrious individuals and committees we've had do them. No, we don't agree on everything here.
Bullet choice and how it is affectively used varies greatly between hunters with exceptional experience
due to their particular style, where and how they want to hit the animal as well as how they want the
bullet to perform.

I can't and won't get into wall thickness between HPs and spitzers because it is not only proprietary
but also misleading with respect to how they perform. Suffice it to say for the most part they are very similar
in jacket wall diameter.
Dave


I find it interesting that his first coment is about mis-understanding their use. It was also interesting to hear the HP is actually "tougher" and is expected to penetrate deeper than the SP. I didn't get ahold of Hornady yet. Nate

Hi Nate -
Sometimes it almost seems as if they (Sierra) is willy washing, back and forth, trying "Not" to answer the question. My oringinal thought was are they (the Matchkings) a "legal" hunting bullet. At least as far as "Utah's" hunting proclamation is concerned. Utah's proclamation reads

quote:

B. Rifle and Shotguns 1. a) any rifle firing a centerfire cartridge and expanding bullets; and
(b) a shotgun, 20 gauge or larger, firing only )) or larger buckshot or slug

as you can see, that leave a little "wiggle" room. However, Utah doesn't consider the Matchking a "hunting bullet".

I don't think anyone is going to change anyones mind on this thread. I think it should be clear as mud, but it covers the ground?

This forum sure does do some weird things, when you try to post sometimes.......

I think we should be clear when talking about all hollow point bullets that they cannot all be lumped together. Sierra makes SBT GameKing bullets, HPBT GameKing bullets, and HPBT MatchKing bullets. The first two are specifically recommended for game. I have used both and they both work perfectly well on game up to large muleys. The HPBT is actually a little tougher bullet in my experience than the softpoint. The MatchKing is a target bullet. It has thin walls and may or may not expand on game. It is not recommended for use on game. But there are "hollow point" bullets that are. Don't think any other companies specifically market a HP bullet for big game although the case has been made that X'es and FailSafes are HPs. For that matter so are all the plastic tip bullets. They just have the hole filled with fragile plastic.

NoCAL

Edited:

Oops my post came in at the same time as an actual response from Sierra. Sorry for the redundancy.