After the recent threads on instant kills and bullets travelling at high velocity, shot placement, all the rest of it...
Then something comes along just to disporove hard and fast rules.

Today I shot a roebuck, I am culling at the moment and this was a mature buck, very heavy bobied, maybe 30kg though weak antlers, what is known as an "assassin" - That is an animal with no tines which can often kill or main opponents in a fight.

He was standing front on at maybe 20meters, barking at me, I was busted.

I let go of a 6mm 70gn Ballistic tip wich at that distance would have been going somewhere in the vicinity of 3130fps wich took him low, center chest, coming to rest behind the shoulder.
The heart was completly shredded, and the shoulder snapped with bone fragments thoughout.

This animal bucked with his hind legs as a heart shot often induces, then just ran off.

It was only 30 or 40 meters to where he piles up, but I would have expected him to go striaght down.

So?

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't...No set of rules apply on this subject, just averages.

Sounds like a good kill. A lot also depends on the alertness of the animal and its will to live. As you said: You were busted, meaning the animal was very alert. In a more sedate moment perhaps the results would of been more instant.

Don

I have shot game with my 9.3x62 232 Norma Vulcan, the hart most of the time destroyed, some went down some did not, CAnt say wen it happens

It is interesting isn't it.

I killed a Pronghorn antelope last year with a .338WM/215 Sierra at 2,959fps muzzle. He was at 219 yards and had just got up from his afternoon siesta and was stretching when I shot him broadside. He took off with the herd and I couldn't believe I missed as I was prone and rock solid in the sling. The herd milled around in a circle about 50 yards from where they started trying to figure out which direction to go as they had no idea where I was. Finally they all took off to the next county leaving my buck in a heap in the middle where they were milling. I had hit him square in the heart and he was able to run that 50 yards starting from a relaxed state. I backtracked his run and could see the blood mist where it sprayed out his sides with each planting of his fore feet. I figured he was spraying everyone around him and when they finally figured out they where smelling and probably feeling blood is when they took off like they did. I guess the .338 is a wiener of a cartridge?!

Another time, same gun and load I killed a speed goat but at only 116 yards. He was broadside as well and went down with a most satisfactory wumph and didn't move a muscle. I hit him fairly high in the lungs above the heart.

I've had similar results killing them with my 30-30.

I've had visa-versa results on mule deer with the .338.

I've had jack rabbits run like cazy with a solid 30-30 hit, and seen them roll over motionless with a .22lr hollowpoint.

Ballistics is really fascinating.

hunting season is coming!

Some times they do some times they don't. for the most part if you lung heart shoot a critter they well run a ways normaly not over 100 yards. My daughters bear this fall 180 hornaday at 2700 took out the heart, both lungs then broke shoulder going out. The bear flopped over threashed around then got up and ran 50 yards dropping dead. A good soild kill.

Express,

First I don't believe in the mythical instant kill unless you're talking head or neck.

Second Heart shots nearly allways result in a run of some description no matter what the calibre or velocity.

Third an aware deer generaly runs longer.

I do think velocity decreases distance run however as Harald has pointed out to me this is not a function of the velocity per se but the increased expansion and hence greater wound channel that velocity brings.

From the scenario you described, the Ballistic Tip may have been travelling too fast. The Nosler manual clearly states a maximum impact velocity for most Ballistic Tips of 3100 fps (someone correct me if that's not the exact figure). Above that velocity, things get...unpredictable.

At any rate, 30 to 40 meters for a death run is not something to be upset about.

RSY

Ok, good responses.

I'll agree that a heart shot almost never produces an drop, usually a short run, then some walking backwards, like, oh o ther's something wrong here...

The bullet may have been travelling too fast, it only penetrated for about 30 or 40cm and blew up, but it did leave a big wound channel that did a lot of damage. "controlled/desired bullet failiure???"

Atkinsons' and Dons' philosphy go with mine, you always find an exacption to prove the rule.

I find that if you smash the point of the shoulder, take out lungs, and maybe come close to the spine you get an instant drop effect, and the animal remains incapacitated for the few seconds required for the vital finctions to subside.

Usually.

Express,

I've sent you a PM

I almost never have a heart shot animal drop where it stands. A deer, for example, can live up to 15 seconds or more without blood pumping, and since they can run 100m in 4-5 seconds, it is not at all unusual for a trailing job. I always try to get close enough to make either a good high shoulder shot, heart/lung is second preferrence for me.

The only instant kill I can recall recently that surprised me was on a pronghorn. I hit him high in the liver with a 25.06 Rem. 120 gr HPBT Sierra at 325 yards. He just instantly collapsed in a heap, never flinched.

After I saw where I'd hit him, I couldn't figure out why he hadn't moved off, or stayed on his feet momentarily at least. Very weird.

My theory is that velocity tends to have more of an "instant drop effect" as the shots get closer to the spine. There may be zone of shock that is dependent upon bullet type, caliber, velocity and tissue hit...if the spine is within this zone, the nervous system gets scrambled (temporarily?) resulting in an instant collapse. In the case of a high lung shot, the animal will die while it is down. In the case of a neck shot, it may regain motor capability as some point, get back up and run. I haven't seen a result on deer or smaller that couldn't be explained this way. dvnv

The way I see it the effect of adrenaline is not unlike that of a strong narcotic. Sometimes some very unusual things can take place when it is put into effect. Remove that from the scenario and results are more predictable.

I shoot a 7-08AI at 3200fps Nosler 120 BTs. I have found this combo kills deer better than any bullet I have used. Almost all kills are instant kills, even shots that I thought were bad. Nothing is perfect but this is as close as it gets. I was told by a guy that kills 30 deer a season (he has a special permit to do this) And he said try it you will see. I have shot 140s all the time and kills were good but the 120s kill faster. Many warned me not to use them, but I am amazed at there killing ability and lightning kills.

Frank

I shared your experience with the same bullet for a long time. I was a prophet for the messiah of killing power. Then I had a rash of failures with really good hits. This occurred at the same time I witnessed equally horrible failures by a couple of friends with 270's and the equivalent bullet. After switching to controlled expansion bullets, I have never had a problem due to bullet failure. I think these bullets are the most spectacular killers I have ever used. In retrospect, they are not the most reliable by any stretch. Spectacular is fun but reliable is what counts, particularly considering the cost to the animal in the event of a failure.

Express a 6mm 70 grain bullet is pretty small.The muzzle energy on that is about 1544ft lbs. The 30 06 has about 3000ft lbs and the 300 mags have around 4000ft lbs..Instant kills, I believe, have to do with neurological shock and energy/ft lbs/is as good of a measure of that as anything.

Sounds like the deer had some adrenaline flowing/a 120lb lady who picks up a car off of her husband/and that can make a huge difference.Thats my 2 cents anyways.

I'm a bit surprised more of you don't use liver shots. Been hit there, and the pain almost sent me to the floor. Blacked out, knees wobbled, and just caught myself.

Seems like if you wanted to knock out an animal, a liver shot would be a very good one.

Solid organ, hydrodynamic shock effect, and all that...
s

my little brother took his first deer with a liver shot from a .222rem.

It is far too light for fallow, and the shot was very badly placed, but the deer did go down within several paces.

I wondered about that, thinking he might have nicked the spine, putting the animal down for long enough to bleed out.

Socrates, good addition to this thread.

[ 03-25-2003, 14:23: Message edited by: EXPRESS ]

This subject comes up every so often. I�ve responded based on my 16 years of experience investigating deaths of all kinds as a law enforcement officer, including chest shots on humans. I had to be accurate and I had to know what I was talking about when I went to court on a murder trial. Here is the definitive answer on �instant� kills backed up by my experience:

Instant kills based on a chest shot is a myth. Even if the animal drops like a sack of rocks, death is NOT instant. It can�t be because destroying the heart or lungs, or both totally and completely does not and cannot result in instant death. It may result in an instant collapse, but it will not result in instant death.

Destroy the heart, completely, and it still takes from 4 to 8 seconds for death to occur. An elk or deer can travel a long distance in 4 to 8 seconds.

To prove this point, imaging a man having a heart transplant. The surgeon cuts the man�s heart out and drops it in the garbage. For a long time�a lot longer than 8 seconds�the man is without a heart. A machine keeps the man alive by circulating oxygenated blood to the man�s brain.

The heart transplant analogy leads to an important observation on bullet killing power, instant or otherwise: It isn�t destruction of the heart or lungs that kills the animal, but cutting off circulation and thereby cutting off oxygen to the brain. The brain shuts down if it is deprived of oxygen for anywhere between 4 to 8 seconds. Again, how far can an animal run in 4 seconds? In those 4 seconds, the animal isn�t dead, but on his way to death. Death occurs when the brain goes hypoxic; that is, oxygen to the brain falls off to zero. This is beyond dispute.

Another analogy. Those of you that grew up on a farm and butchered hogs, you know that the pigs were shot with a 22, put down then stabbed just so in the throat angling back toward the heart. Here you had a brain shot, a stab to the heart, yet the pig�s feet, a domestic animal, kicked like mad, kicking which was in fact a running reaction. That reaction went for a long time. It weakened as the brain went hypoxic, then stopped.

We can argue this point until hell freezes over, but the fact is, in a good killing chest shot, some animals will fall at the shot, others will run. In 4 seconds they can run a long way, and in 8, even longer. We can argue and debate why some animals run and others fall, but what is going on in the animal won�t change. The brain has to shut down from a lack of oxygen for the animal to go down.

Socrates, I have taken and have seen deer taken by liver shots. They have (3 that I can remember right now) all been complete pass throughs and all deer bled out and expired within 100 yards. The one I took this way was a bad shot that turned out well but I would not reccomend deliberately taking a liver shot on deer since it is a small unexposed organ with no refference points such as a shoulder. Not a very big target with much room for error for someone who is not exactly sure of a deers anatomy.

Brilliant post Roger K........ and the absolute truth.

Shock and the size of the wound channel contribute to how quick the animal tips over, but the wound is what kills. BTW, i don't think velocity has much to do with instant incapacitation. Full diameter shotgun slugs for example absolutely flatten deer at close range and that while traveling less than 1600 fps.

The defining factor concerning incapacitation is the critters adrenaline level at the time.

Gabe

I would think only a shot to the spine will drop any game animal in it's tracks. Any game animal hit any place but the spine, no matter what cartridge is used, will not react to that hit the same. Anything can and will happen unless the spinal cord is disrupted. I have seen reports of Elk stuck through both lungs and lived to be harvested later by another hunter. The wound was dicovered when the animal was field dressed.
There are no certain results in any hunting venue, anything may happen that will make the hunter stand and scratch his head wondering what happened how could it happen. Murphy's law is the only certanty in hunting venue.

This season a huge ten point, at least a 180 BC score buck walked up the deer trail I was watching. I put the cross hairs behind his shoulder, blew my grunt call, he stopped and looked in my direction only fifty yards away. I touched the trigger and the click of the firing pin falling but the rifle did not fire. That buck took off as if launched buy a rocket. I ejected the cartridge and not a sign of the slightest dent in the primer showed. The firing pin never touched the primer. I chambered the next round and picked out a knot on a tree about fifty yards near where the buck stopped. I touched the trigger, the rifle barked it's report, and the knot had a hole in it dead center. Still have not found any logical reason why that firing pin did not strike the primer on that round in the chamber.

My gunsmith went over the bolt, trigger, safety, firing pin hole and spring, found nothing wrong. Murphy's law was in my stand that morning to be certain I did not take that fantastic buck.

Roger, I understand your field of expertise and I do not want to ruffle any feathers.You are absolutely right about death being caused by brain hypoxia,but I doubt you have ever shot a deer in the shoulder from inside 50 yds with a 30 06 or a 300 mag from inside 150yds.For all intensive purposes death is instant.The brain may function at some level for 10 seconds,but the body is disconnected.I am also interested if you have ever seen a person shot at close range in the sternum with a 30 06 or better.Although brain death may not have occured for 10 seconds I highly doubt that person could move or say anything.Maybe your personal experience says different,I would be very interested in hearing about it.

Hammer, it's hard to ruffle my feathers.

I drew three tags last year and took 3 deer in November, 2 does and a button buck. Not one collapsed instantly.

Number 3, one shot at 150 yards. A perfect lung and heart hit on an adult doe. Shot quartering away just behind the left chest catching the second rib. It quartered forward, took out the heart and chunks of both lungs the passed up into the neck on the opposite side of the entry wound. I recovered the bullet from under the skin in her neck a few inches from her ears. The bullet traversed the length of her neck back to front in deep tissue. The doe ran 20 yards or so before she collapsed. This was a heart, lung and neck shot and still she ran. Not far, but she ran.

Deer number 2, at 100 to 125 yards. A perfect broadside presentation. Heart and lung shot. One shot. Heart and lungs demolished. Fresh snow on the ground that morning. Kill made not long after sunrise. The herd of deer I was tracking didn't know I was there until I fired. Button buck ran 30 yards and fell hard.

Deer number 1, a yearling fawn, a doe. I jumped mom and her when I almost stepped on them. The fawn jumped from her bed then immediately stopped and turned broadside to have a look. Range was about the same as across a small lot in town. I'd measure the distance in feet, not yards. A perfect heart lung shot. Doe turned and ran hell bent for the horizon at the shot. I couldn�t shoot a second time because of a line of trees. I knew I hit her square. I heard the bullet slap. I even counted. One thousand one. One thousand two. One thousand three and down she went.

I used a 300 WSM hand loaded with 180 grain CTBS at around 2950 FPS. I started shooting a 300 Winchester magnum around 1965 and have taken a lot of deer and elk with that caliber. I hand loaded 180 grain bullets to an average of 3050 FBS in the 300 Winchester. I shot a lot of deer under 50 yards. If you have ever hunted Whitetail here on the Dakota Plains, you know that hunting them out here is like hunting pheasant. Without trees, deer tend to hole up in short cover and hold that cover until you almost step on them. That offers a lot of opportunities for shots inside twenty yards. Some shots are closer, you are quick enough, or you catch a curious young thing like I did on my first deer last season.

Hammer, what you say about body disconnect has no basis in reality. Disconnected from what? The mechanics of death in a chest shot remain constant from well placed shot to well placed shot. Make a bad shot and all bets are off. A good chest shot opens veins and arteries and causes blood pressure to fall to zero. I�m not talking about a spine shot or brain shot. It�s impossible for a deer hit in the spine or brain to bleed to death. There aren�t the arteries to provide the bleeding. A spine shot will not kill, it will merely anchor and hold in place for a closer killing shot.

I'm 56 and hunt and fish almost full time. I started hunting deer here on the plains when I was 16. Last year was season 40 for me. Since I retired back in 1994, I hunt here and in as many states as I can squeeze in. I have killed deer and elk at all ranges, one deer at 400 yards paced, another at 440 yards measured. I was a teenager then, and foolish. I would not shoot at that range today, but stalk closer. But then, I also fired my 30 06 every week all year long on fox and varmints. Those were the days of cheap surplus ammo and I made the most of it.

I have made my share of shots on deer that resulted in instant collapse. A few never twitched. I can�t tell you why a particular deer or elk goes down at the shot. I know it isn�t a body disconnect or shock of any kind. I do know and can prove that a shot that opens veins and arteries will drop blood pressure to zero and cause death.

We hunters tend to talk ourselves into believing that we are all super shots, that our chosen weapon is THE killing machine of all killing machines, and that the bullets and loads we choose will kill the animal just by nicking the animal�s hair. If we miss, we refuse to acknowledged the fault may be ours and go out cash in hand looking for THE killing machine that WON�T miss. If we make a bad shot, like a gut shot and have to spend hours tracking the animal, and sometimes losing that animal to an agonizing death, we look at our faithful killing machine the same way we would look at a wife caught in bed with the mail carrier. We go looking for a replacement.

I can�t tell you why an animal drops at the shot, but I can tell you without a doubt why the animal died. Keep this ditty in mind: Sometime collapse leads to death, and other times death leads to collapse. We want the sure thing when it comes to the kill, can�t have it, but insist on looking for it.

Roger,Those were logical and well thought out words,and it sounds as though you have much much more experience then me.I thank you for sharing your experience.All I can do is give my opinion and limited experience.I ve seen other hunters kill deer and heard from others at our hunting party.I ve never seen or heard of a deer getting shot in the shoulder at close range by a 30 06 or a little further with a 300 mag and not going straight down.As for my basis in reality,I may have worded my thoughts incorrectly.Disconnected is not a very good word.I d say a deer getting shot in the heavy musculature and bones of the shoulder, first of all will get knocked off its feet,second will have extreme trauma and shock to its body.I beleive a high shoulder shot will cause at least momentary paralysis.whether or not the deer bleeds out, they die.If you hit a deer in the lungs with 50 bmg from 20 yards, depending on thier state of arousal,that deer may take off running.That shot can only result in their lungs being destroyed,and as you said they d have to bleed out or have their oxygen saturation reduced to a level that would cause unconsciousness.I d say most hunters would agree with me,but they do not want the shoulder shot because of meat loss.I mentioned a 30 06 at close range,a 300 mag at a little further inside 150 and a 300ultra inside 200yards.I believe a shoulder shot with enough energy hits the spinal cord like a direct shot.They will also bleed very heavily,death will be quick.Every man has the right to an opinion,and you may think that I m full of shit,but its still my opinion.I d be interested in hearing about the deer you ve shot broad side in the shoulder at close range that didn t die instantly.I d geuss if it ever happened it was with a 270 or 30 06 at over 150 yards.

Kinematics of high velocity wound trauma & hydrostatic pressures created in high velocity wounds (sound like a good thesis statement?):

Adding a little more fuel to the fire ......... recent experiences of the same topic.

Shot 2 bucks in the '01-'02 season in SW Georgia - the first was a nice, fat 6 point with a very knarly rack and definitely a 'management buck'. Shot broad side at 160 yards with a Rem 700VS .308 20" barrel & B&L 3000 Elite 5x15x50 scope (read Big Scope!), using 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tips & Win 748, which chrono'd at 3050 - a little hot, but no pressure signs. Shot was made from a firm rest (read ground blind with window sill) and little to no wind. Shot struck just behind the shoulder & low (point of aim), deer faultered in a walking stride and made it 25 yards before falling dead. Skinning revealed the bullet severed the top of the heart and passed through the other side of the deer.

Second was a nice, fat 4 point with a very narrow rack and obvious defects - another management buck (was my turn to have a run on 'management deer' that year). Shot at 75 yards using the same .308 rifle & load. Deer was facing my direction, but quartering away and standing still. Shot was made from a 36' tree stand that uses 2 sweet gum trees that have been topped about 6' above the platform/chair and rifle was rested against the trunk of the forward sweet gum tree. Again, little to no wind and cool evening conditions. Deer was hit in the point of the right shoulder, which demolished the bone structure in the shoulder and bullet lodged under the skin of the off side (left) rib cage. Deer made it 35 yards through some of the thickest bramble vine & black jack vine I've ever seen. Took me 30 minutes, some scrapes and a lot of sweat on a cool SW Georgia evening to get him out to the fire break. Ok, so maybe I sweat easily, but I am big enough and strong enough to carry my load (6'3" 295#'s).

Switched to a Rem 700KS Custom Shop Mountain Rifle in .300WinMag & Zeiss Diavari VM/V 30mm 3-12x56T* illuminated reticle scope, with factory Winchester 180gr Power Point ammunition for the '02-'03 deer hunting season again in SW Georgia. Traded into the rifle right before season started and didn't have time to work up decent hand loads. Besides, the factory Win 180gr PP ammo shot .5moa out of this rifle - very nice!

Shot 2 does at 11:30 in the morning with very nice sunny/breezy conditions and temp in mid 40's, while walking down off of a sand ridge with planted pines toward an oak bottom. Was making my way quietly toward a leaner stand on a big oak tree at the edge of the bottom. Twig snapped and a quick whirl to my left revealed 2 big does standing broad side at 50 & 55 yards respectively, looking over their opposite shoulder at something behind them - yearlings perhaps. Shot the first just behind the shoulder & low (point of aim again - why don't I shoot 'em higher?) and the .300WinMag 180gr Win PP dropped her so hard that her head fell between her out stretched front legs - didn't roll either, just fell straight down as if she were laying down on her belly with her hind legs still under her. Kept the rifle on my shoulder and chambered another round, as the 2nd doe had already tensed her body (sorta 'sucked back' to prepare for a forward lunge & run) to lunge forward and run. Wanted to put one a little high just behind the shoulder, but only had time to get the reticle just below the top of her back (actually spine) and could see in the scope that she had started her forward motion, so I touched the .300WM off again. She also dropped in her tracks like she had been hit by a sledge hammer.

Skinning revealed that doe #1's heart was shredded and significant damage to the off side (right) shoulder. Doe #2 was hit about 3" below the top of the spine, with dramatic damage to 6" of spinal column. Doe #1 weighed 196#'s & doe #2 weighed 178#'s.

Conclusion: Having been an avid deer hunter since age 4 (thanks to my Dad) and an avid shooter of both rifles & handguns since age 6 (thanks to my Marine Corp/Master Seargent/Rifle Instructor Father), I draw no conclusions from the .308 vs. .300WM scenarios I posted, just an opinion that bullet placement & ft lbs of energy are the major factors for taking game animals. I do believe that the kinematics of high velocity wound trauma, using the widely accepted kinetic energy equation (kinetic energy = 1/2 mass x velocity), & common sense, clearly demonstrate that caliber, velocity, & placement are critical if game animals are to be harvested as quickly & humanely as possible. The hydrostatic pressure created in high velocity wound channels might go a long way in explaining the "instant kill" issue, especially if placement is near the neuroligical pipeline (read spinal column/neck).

Just my .02cents,
Clay

[ 04-05-2003, 22:52: Message edited by: CT ]

Scenario:
My buddy stops in to tell me about a mature whitetail doe feeding in my corn stubble field at dusk in December. I load my 25-06 Rem with 100 grain Core-lokts @ 3100fps. Distance is 60 yards, broadside. I aim for the heart. The rifle cracks and the doe sprints straight away with her tail high in the air. We lose sight of her at about 120 yards when she runs into some standing corn. My buddy says, "You missed!" I object, "I couldn't have; I know my gun is spot on and I was as steady as can be." We go to the spot where she was standing and look for blood. Didn't see any in the fading light. We followed in the direction she headed and finally found her about one hour later lying stone cold dead in a neighbor's backyard vegetable garden which turned out to be almost 200 yards from where she was shot. We hung her on a meatpole and opened her up. Out rolled her guts. No sign of bullet damage. He cut through the diaphragm and said all the goodies were shot up. That made me feel better. As I was holding the ribs apart I asked him about the heart. He straightened up with his hands in that classic "YOU'RE IN GOOD HANDS WITH ALLSTATE' pose and there wasn't any part bigger than a coagulated piece of tissue the size of a nickel.
Her heart literally dripped through his fingers back into her chest cavity. There was no exit wound. The bullet expended all it's energy inside her.

Epilog:
This deer wasn't stressed in the least, but very content in her eating. The next instant her heart muscle stops being the most important organ in her body. I couldn't have made a more humane kill, yet she ran off like a scalded dog.
This happened more than 30 years ago and, through other experiences, taught me a very important hunting lesson: destroying soft tissue doesn't usually make for a drop-on-the-spot easy recovery. You've got to hit the spine or break the shoulder or hip bone to anchor them. Trailing wounded or dead-on-their-feet deer is much easier now that my buddy got himself a basset hound. Blood trail or not, that dog finds 'em!

RogerK: I think your posts here are most helpful to us in understanding the physiology of what happens while deer hunting, but a stumbling block to our understanding is what exactly we mean by death. Lets take a hypothetical case in which our deer is guilotined. It head can be thought of as living for the next 4 to 8 seconds, but he would be thought of as dead by many.

You are drive a bunch of guys crazy trying to figure out how to carry a gillotine in the field. And exactally how much energy does a gillotine impart?

The sum of my argument is what happened to Dave and his doe. Sometimes they go down and sometimes they don't. The times they don't, may not reflect on our ability to place the shot or the terminal performance of our chosen equipment. I believe that too many times we respect ourselves, our abilities and our equipment too much and we do not respect the cunning, the strength and the will to live that is a part of the game that we hunt.

I wonder how long Dave would hunt, is he could take the uncertainty out of going afield? For me, the uncertainty is a large part of the hunt. Some of my fondest memories are of the times I blew it. When I stalked up on a buck and and two does laying by a rock pile only to learn that I stalked the wrong rock pile and didn't know it until I walked around the rock pile I stalked and had the deer jump up and make for the horizon while I stood there with a stupid look on my face. Nobody there to see my face, but it felt stupid from this side. But I wouldn't trade the memory for a sure shot and a sure kill.

I'm saying, if the deer does not go down at the shot and you made a good shot, don't blame the bullet or the rifle. Use it as a time to respect the game and the will to live.