I have a 6.5 bore that I cannot seem to shift all copper residue off. I have swabbed it with a Hoppes Bench Rest and a phosphor bronze brush, left it overnight, swabbed it again and again - it always seems to have copper fouling. Any one got any bright idea or miracle products they could share with me? Thanks.

I tend to put Noslers down it if that makes a difference.

[This message has been edited by Deerdogs (edited 06-25-2001).]

I won't say it's a miracle product because it can be a pain in the neck to set up, but the Outers Foul Out III has done wonders for my sanity.

If you haven't seen or tried one, it's an electrochemical doodad -- you put some chemicals and a rod in the bore then run a current through. The rod comes out copper-plated (or lead-plated if you use a different solution), using the fouling in your bore as the "supply."

My .30-06 is lightly pitted, probably from long-ago use with corrosive ammo, and I used to slave over it with Sweet's or Accubore and could never get a clean patch to show.

It took multiple sessions on the Foul Out, with solution changes, but eventually the fouling all came out.

John

I use Barns CR#10. It should get all of the copper out,that you can put in the barrel,at one shooting. For a hard case that is handed to you,use the Outer's Foulout reverse plating unit. You may have to scrub the barrel in between treating with the unit,if the copper is layered with crud.
good luck

------------------

Deerdogs.

Barrel cleaning is done in some different ways, different shooters have different way to do this.

Different solvents are good at different things. I consider Shooters Choise a very good solvent for removing powder fouling, it�s not as effective on copper though. It will get the copper out to, but it takes a long time.

Shooters Choise have a solvent called Copper Remover with amonia that works quite well.

My favorite solvent for copper removal is Sweets 7,62 solvent. This is made in Australia but could be found pretty mutch around the globe. It contains amonia and work really quick on coppar fouling. Some claims that Shooters Choise react in contact with Sweets and the mix will ruin the barrel. I have not seen any effects like this but I avoid to mix the two anyway. Don�t use a bronze brush with Sweets or Shoters Choise Copper Remover, the solvent will eat the bristles on the brush in notime.

If the fouling is heavy solvents will take forever to get your barrel clean. Then the trick is to use a abrasive cleaning compound. There is several different good products around. I have tried JB:s, USP Bore paste and Gold Medallion with good results. Follow the instructions on the pacage and your barrel will be clean in a not to distant future

I use abasive cleaning compounds in all my benchrest barrels frequently and I can�t see that this is doing any harm, it�s rather the other way around.

A good bore guide is a must when using abrasive barrel cleaning products. A bore guide is always a good idea to protect the throat area and keep the messy solvents etc. out of the action.

Hope this have given you some ideas. As I mentioned abowe, there is many ways to skin a cat. This is my way

Stefan.

Before you resort to abrasives simply use Sweets or CR-10 as directed. Do not use a bronze brush to apply - use only nylon brushes with these solvents. Do not leave in the barrel for more than 15 minutes at a time. Follow the directions!

It may take a few applications to remove all copper. I use Butches Bore shine at the range between strings and Sweets for final cleaning at home. I always dry patch (several) to ensure that I remove all solvent. Never mix solvents. I finish with a flood (muzzle down) of BreakFree and push out with one final patch and its ready to be stored.

I work on a number of guns for friends at the range. Most have mild to extensive copper fouling. While Shooters Choice is good, it is not aggressive enough for more stubborn fouling. I have never had a problem with Sweets or CR-10. Remember to use a coated rod and a bore guide and swab out the chamber when finished.

Z

I must agree with Zero Drift about Sweets and CR10. Follow directions. I also avoid brushing any barrel even with brash brushes.

I must put a work of caution here. Do not use the various caustic cleaners back to back. Thoroughly clean barrel before changing cleaner. I have seen bores mared by the chemical reaction between two seperate cleaners.

Good Hunting
Steve

Hey,
when I have a copper problem,I take all my cleaning gear down to the range.I fire several rounds to get the barrel hot.Then I use my sweets.It works for me.
1geejay
www.shooting-hunting.com

Friends,
This is a terrific thread regarding cleaning and copper removal, a true wealth of information.
I would like to forward another idea based on why the barrel is coppering in the first place. Generally when a barrel fouls or coppers heavily it is not the bullets or the number of shots fired or the cleaning procedures, it is the interior surface of the bore and grooves. If you could examine the interior with a bore scope you would find that the surfaces are rough and very inconsistent. These rough areas hold copper or lead just as if you ran your bullets over sandpaper (gross exaggeration).
Now, you wet your patches or brushes or whatever you choose and push it down the bore. The whatever hits the high spots completely and leaves the mess in the bottom of the rough spots. You can clean to your hearts content and there will still be a mess in the bottom.
Suggestion: try cold lapping the barrel from 280 grit up to 1200 grit using a lead lap cast on a cleaning rod with an old or smaller than groove diameter brush. This is not so far fetched since most of the major barrel manufacturers do this every day on every barrel.
Suggestion: Fire lap the barrel with a kit from NECO or another brand available from Brownell's. This I can personally attest to for the repair of a particularly poorly made barrel. It made a significant difference in cleaning, unfortunately the rule still applies, you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
Just a couple of thoughts in a different direction.
Bill

Bill:

Very interesting comments. I have come to the same conclusion myself. Any fouling that doesn't come out with Shooter's Choice is a rough barrel problem.

Related to that, I have a couple of rifles (oh no, not those Winchesters again !) that shoot significantly BETTER with copper marks in the barrel. I have a theory that the copper fills in the rough spots and makes for a smoother bore surface.

KuduKing,
I was going to mention that but some think that this is funny concept. When "barrel break in" is discussed, I often wonder what is being broken in? Copper jackets are significantly softer than barrel steel. So if you're breaking in the barrel what are you smoothing out? I suspicion that you are leaving copper in the rough spots hence the improvement in smoothness.
Whereas if you lap the bore, you are truly smoothing the steel and polishing it at the same time.
Just some more thoughts.
Bill

Bill,

Exactly what do you use for lapping compound?

Have you ever had trouble with silicon carbide embedding in the barrel?

Don

Damn - Barrel Break In Strikes Again. Don you are correct, silicon carbide can and does embed in your barrel. The concept of barrel break in is to use heat and pressure to remove "tags" left over from the machining process. The bullet simply pulls these from the barrel - heat and pressure are the "active ingredients".

There must be over 20 threads on this subject. Review these and make your own judgements. Before anyone starts cold lapping or fire lapping, I would strongly suggest that you attempt a proper barrel break in. I would rather use Sweets or CR-10 than an abrasive on my barrels.

Z

Don,
We are using silicon carbide lap compounds in grades 280 to 1200. Then if necessary under certain conditions we will lap with extremely fine diamond compound. Generally the diamond is reserved for polishing the tooth on the rifling cutters. It is pretty pricey and because of the "fineness" takes a while to use.
Zero Drift,
I have taken the time to do "a proper break-in" as you call it on more barrels than I care to think about. I have also looked down the bores of many more barrels under high magnification with a borescope. We have gone from "proper break-in" to fire lapping to lead lapping to some very highly refined procedures for making barrels. This has not been an overnight sensation. It has been years of work and research by several barrel makers and those that re-bore barrels. Some supplied barrels still require lapping and generally show improvement from doing so. A "proper break-in" merely leaves jacket material in the recesses of rough barrel. Please note that we are talking about a "rough" barrel categorized by being excessively difficult to clean. The tags go away during the regular process of shooting or lapping. And since a new barrel generally requires a load work up, the tags are taken care of at this point.
Benchrest shooters, known for being extremely fussy about barrels, argue this question all the time. And yet the barrel makers listed in the top 10 of every match lap their barrels. Dan Lilja even puts a saw cut on the muzzle end of a blank so that at least the first inch of the blank gets removed. This is because lapping bells out the front and back of a barrel. This is in the FAQ section on his website.
I know threads like this are repetitive and you are bored reading them, but I think that this process allows for more people and more ideas to develop.
Bill

Bill - Most premium barrel manufacturers utilize some type of polishing process as you have described. Cold lapping with lead slugs is not something that average shooter should undertake. Fire lapping can remove more material than is necessary and thus can limit the life of the barrel. I have used the NECO kit for one barrel that did not respond to anything else. There was only a marginal improvement in accuracy, but fouling was not a problem.

A slow break in procedure as described at nauseam within the forum can address most polishing requirements. I too have spent a lot of time behind bore scopes and have worked on more guns than I can begin to count. I tend to like the slow process rather than more aggressive approaches. Then again, I got a lot of time on my hands and I like to shoot (a lot). However, as you discussed, there are those barrels that exhibit a propensity to foul and noting short of lapping will help. Lapping is an important tool in obtaining accuracy and bore smoothness, but it is a last resort effort for me.

Z

[This message has been edited by Zero Drift (edited 06-06-2001).]

I don't know whether you can get it where you are, but I agree with those who recommend Sweets 7.62 for copper fouling. For those of you who aren't familiar with Sweets, it's a solvent with a lot of ammonia in it, and it's thickened in some way to make it like honey, so it goes in the barrel better and stays there better than the water-like Hoppes Bench Rest solvent.

I have a .270 that had a rather severe copper fouling problem. I had to use Sweets many times, with brushing, but eventually I got to the point where I could get patches that showed little or no green staining out of it.

Gentlemen thank you for all the good advice. I solved the problem by using Forrest bore cleaning foam. It worked a treat.

http://www.sportingrifles.com/tried&tested.htm

I'll try putting a link here...

DD