Im not gonna jump in the belted magnum thing. Have one and don't use it much. Do have a 25-06 though and I really don't understand how that can get any better (IMHO). This one is custom on a Mod 70 action and is the 4th one I've owned. Almost all the deer I've killed in the last 15 years (have not missed filling a deer tag in over..ah never mind) has been with the .25 and they drop dead right NOW. Far and away it is my favorite deer gun and some of those bucks have been pretty good size. And I've reached out there some with them. Most of the time I loaded 100gr and was partial to 100 Nosler SB (not available anymore). How would you improve on the .25 ??? Just my .2 worth and curious

Mike

What would we gain by duplicating 375 H&H ballistics on a rimless case?

We would gain a whole lot more good inexpensive actions to work with like the jillions of M-98 s , Rugers , and a few others not really long enough for the H&H cartridges .

I agree on your point of chambering reliablity with the H&H hulls , but on the other hand , did not the .404 perform admirably as well , and maybe even saw more widespread use in the old African days ?

I don't think anyone can really say that the military rounds designed for feeding like the 06 and 8 and 7x57 are any less reliable in feeding and chambering than the H&H rounds .

[This message has been edited by sdgunslinger (edited 04-25-2002).]

Mike 375,

Sdgunslinger answers your questions for you and I may add that in other threads I have said that "I consider the .375 H&H an historic cartridge", "I rever the .375 H&H" and that "I consider the .375 H&H a serious cartridge" meaning that I would not take reloading shortcuts such as necksizing it when loading ammo for a DGR.

It is some of us reloaders that have a problem with the belted cases. Not all of us do it is appartant but I feel that the belted case is of negative value the way it headspaces.

We don't really have H&H to blame. We have the experimenters who glommed onto it. They should have followed Newton who had it right.

Later an attempt was made by Schuler with the 8 X 68 but due to history that one did not get off the ground.

Slipknot, I certainly do you see your point as it applies your own personal hunting requirements. If you're a deer hunter, there's no reason to look much past something like your preferred .25-06 or something like it. Deer hunting doesn't constitute the entire gamunt of big game hunting, however, and that's where the rub begins.

If you are a dedicated elk hunter, or if you hunt the North Country for moose, big bears, goats, more elk, or combination hunts that include the above species plus sheep and maybe deer, the .25-06 simply does not fill the bill, but most of the magnum calibers (7mm and up) do. That's why they were invented to begin with. The .25-06 doesn't fill the bill for African hunting, either, unless you plan on taking something like a .375 H&H along as well.

AD

Allen..did not mean to imply that I was JUST a deer hunter. Just needed to reply to some comments about .25 and 100 gr being $hit.
I will respect your opinion in paragraph 2 of your post...however I don't agree with much you said. I will assume you are referring to 7mm Rem Mag, not just a 7mm and I would also assume you have kilt most game in N America and Africa, and that is great and quite an accomplishment. But hunting is not particularly caliber-species specific. Some may think so and everyone has the right to do their own thing. IMHO, it's more about hunting and shooting skills.
As far as "NEW" factory calibers. I think there are plenty to choose, but I do understand that wants and needs are entirely two different things. Wildcats are what getting what you want is all about. Albeit some of the present day calibers are direct results of wildcats, including the 25-06. So guys..build em and may the best one win and just maybe one of the factories will pick it up and you'll make a ton of money (thats doubtful). Hell, if you find a good-un you'll have my attention, and probably my money. I can honestly say that without conversations like these, we'd all probaly be still shooting 44-40's, and 30-30's (nothing wrong with them either..just trying to ward off articulate attacks!!!!)

sdgunslinger,

Necking up a 338 to 375 would let you you use the Ruger. Does not H&H itself use M98s for their 375 rifles? So you don't need a rimless. But perhaps you are suggesting a rimless so as to have a head diameter equal to the H&H belt and allow a shorter case but with some taper and thus equal H&H case capacity. But again, feeding could never be the equal as longer and thinner.

As to the Jeffrey, sometime ago their was a poster on Shooters.com discussing headspace problems he was having with the 404 Jeffrey.

That is not to say that the 404 did not work or that 8 X 57s and 30/06s will not feed.

BUT, headpsace control of the 375 has to be better than the 404 and the very tapered case when all else is equal must have superior chambering and extraction than does the 30/06.

As to disadvantages of belts and reloading, there is one that occassionaly crops but no one ever seems to mention.

That is, that in some instances, the sizing die will not pick up just in front of the belt. When resizing to have say .003" or so head space, some cases will not have any "slop" ans they will bind slightly on the section just in front of the belt. For very accuratce rifles this will sometimes cause a slightly different point of impact and hence affect group size.

The problem when it occurs is with Norma brass. The reason for is that Norma belted brass does not have the solid head go up all the way past the belt. Unless of course Norma has recently changed their brass.

To offset this neer mentioned disadvantage there is also a never mentioned advantage of the belted case and that is with very reduced loads.

I use very reduced loads in the 375 and also have done likewise with cast bullets in the 308.

Witht he 308, the headpsace grows with each shot, but not with the 375 or of a course a rimmed case. What happens is that the primer blast drives the case forward and there is insufficient pressure to re fireform the case.

Jack Belk and I discussed this sometime agon on HA and he did not believe me. So he went and tried it and found it to be true.

An Ackley Imp rimless might not do this. I don't know as I have no real experience with them.

Having said all of that, for small bore fast calibers, I would prefer a rimless case and for one reason. You can have the rifle chambered with a crush fit on new cases, but with a shortened die or ground down shell holder, you can still elect to shoot with some head space on new cases. And believe it or not but many bench style rifles that a chambered witha standard JGS reamer will shoote better with a few thou headspace as disticnt from neck sized brass or a crush fit. Also, best accuracy often comes when new brass is used.

Mike

Don,

As you can see I have outlined some problem areas with Belted Vs Rimless in my post to sdgunslinger.

However, my views on belted in this thread have been with the H&H. And the bottom line is that to make a rimless one you lose.

The 375s very existance depends on the belt.

Now just a couple of things that are not Africa but do illustrate some things in the real about the 375 Vs 270 which of course includes belted Vs rimless.

I have probably shot more roos and pigs with those two caliber and also 308 and 300 Winchester.

The way we shoot the numbers are your ground hog numbers and froma vehichle including chasing them and also in the spotligt. In short, lots of shots and shit conditions.

I have had 270 rounds fail to chamber that were covered in shit from rolling around in the back of the truck. But not so with 375.

And one last point which is not about belted but more about what the 375 is about.

Over the last 30 years I have had the experence with 270, 308 and 300 where some batch of bullets are too hard and roos and pigs jump and run all over the place. But you know, those blunt nose 375s always work OK.

The point being that the 375 was a very specifically designed caliber. Even recoil means it isa 375 H&H and nota 396 H&H.

And the belt is part of the equation.

I guess the 338 Winchester is the only caliber that has cut into the 375. That I think is because rifles can be made lighter from the recoil point of view. Also, until recently with the M70 Stainless and Rem 700 Stainless, 338 rifles from Winchester and Remington were far cheaper in 338 than they were in 375. Of course that situation still exists with Ruger. It also probaly means that the 375 will bear a higher price than will the 338.

Mike

Mike

I won't get into the debate about the .375 or the etc. etc.'s

What I will say is this. Why is there always so much animosity whenever a new cartridge is developed? Everything has to be new at one time, whether it's the 3006, 308, .300 Weatherby etc.

Whenever something new comes along, it seems that shooters try to take the piss out of it.

So what if someone wants the "new cutting edge" thing?

There is nothing wrong with "improvement" on something. That seems to be taken for granted in almost every field except guns.

Look how long synthetic stocks took to catch on, despite them being (for the most part) functionally better than wood. (Many exceptions, I know, but just an example)

I just don't get all the naysayers...use what works for you...

I got it!... I got it!......

We can neck up the 7mm STW and call it the 8mm STW. We'd clean up!, since it's fast enough to satisfy the fast guys, and a .323 to satisfy the bigbore guys.

For the mid-types we could call it the 30 STW and then we could do a 416 STW.

Cool idea if he "8" would sell, huh?

Gatehouse,

I think some of the animosity comes about because of what else could have been done.

For example, I think the case capacity of the 270 WSM is great for a 270. But on the other hand, I would prefer that case capacity to be achieved from a case that was a slightly fatter 270 or 30/06 and therefore be in that standard lenght action.

I guess in some other cases shooters might have some money, time and effort tied up in a caliber like 300 Win or 270 Win and don't like the idea of their caliber becoming orphan annie.

Then there is the situation that with so many new calibers in the 270 to 30 bore size, that what you want could be harder to get since things are now spread across several potentially popular calibers.

As to the last point, I learnt that many many years ago in Australia with 224 and 375 bullets. With 224 bullets it is easier to buy "a bullet" than for 375 BUT much harder to buy a "particular" bullet since there are so many.

Another issue that would put some people offside is that their 270s, 7mms and 300s are in standard actions are not really the ideal to rechamber to the WSMs.

Coming back to my first sentence, I think there is a good argument for the money used for the new calibers in advertising and manufacturing etc. to have been used to offer a better made rifle from Winchester or Remington.

In other words, would you rather have a real good M70 in 270 or a shitty M70 in 270 WSM?

Mike

Heres what I think.
Let everybody run around grab the latest short mags. Let em bash belted cases. Let em hoot and haler all they want and in the end there will be more belted mag guns, ammo and brass for me and the people who like em!
Happy hunting,
JAG
Hood River, OR

New cartridges are more fun for me than commemeratives. The gun companies have all those marketing meetings in fancy resorts and they have to produce paperwork.

When a odd ball cartridge fails to sell some doppy "collector" will pay more for it than a practical cartridge.

It's a win - win.

Now I've heard everything. I can appreciate the fact that some people either out of ignorance or just plain preference, don't care for "belted" cartridges. But to say that they are obsolete when the 375 H&H is arguably the BEST cartridge of all time is bad enough, but what has got to be one of the most asinine comments of all was the one about Weatherby cartridges being "bad." Let's see,the new Remington Ultra-nonsense 300 barely matches the 300 Weatherby ballistics yet is uses more powder? I've been reloading all of my adult life and have hunted I think more than my share of animals. I have NEVER had a case separation with a belted case, not ever. So please, if you like the new family of short magnums or unbelted cartrdges, fine, that's your misfortune, but to say that belted cartridges are obsolete, well, let's just wait a few years and when the day comes that they outsell the 300 Winchester or the 375 H&H, we'll have something to talk about. jeez. jorge

Thanks for the feedback Jorge. I have had insipiant head separations with belted magnum cases.

The tolerances in the chamber and cartridge drawings are the cause for this.

What about taking the 284 win out to 30-06 case length?

------------------
From my cold, dead hands!
Thanks Chuck!

Better yet, Why not figure a way to use C-4 as a propelant?

Obsolete! You mean I can't kill deer anymore with my 7mm Rem Mag! What a joke!