Guys,

I have successfully used 150 grain NBTs in 308 Win driven at 2500 fps. They killed 3 deer in the last couple of years with good performance ... small entry, just the right sized exit, and the deer dropped within 25 yards.

Had a very different and unexpected experience this morning. Went into the woods with a Weatherby Mark V in .375 H&H. Ammo was 260 grain NBTs loaded way down at near the starting charge weight for 275's 68.5 grains of RL15. Grouped well from the bench..

About 10 to 8 this morning a young spike walked out in a forest path on the top of a ridge about 150 yards away. As I was sitting in the crotch of two trees I had to maneuver some to get the gun around. And of course, by the time I did that the fella had worked himself to the right side of the path and had stepped into the tree line. A few minutes later he reappeared and walked side to side down the road toward me. At 75 yards too many days of watching small deer finally got to me, and I pulled the trigger as the guy presented a nice full side shot.

I saw the impact shockwave ... but the guy walked off (rapidly, but not running) to the right. I took 5 minutes or so to pack the stuff and get to the task of tracking him up. I frankly figured he was toast and there would be a nice blood trail ... but I had chambered another round just to be sure.

I found him standing about 25 yards from the place he had been hit ... he was wobbly on his feet but not down and certainly not dead yet.

He presented another side shot ... and knowing that one doesn't eat anything from the barrel I hit him again on the right side just aft of the foreleg. He went 5 yards and dropped. Quite dead this time.

Got to looking during the field dressing .... no exit wounds. Looked like he'd swallowed a hand grenade: chest cavity filled with blood and massive shock trauma to the intestinal tract. Very messy.

I am shocked. I did not chrono the ammo ... but the load should have been in the 2500 fps range and I'd have thought the projectiles would have worked as designed. Both bullets failed ... the hit at 75 yrds had a nice half inch entry, but the impact at 25 yards left an obvious surface detonation even though there was penetration through the rib cage.

Am VERY, VERY happy I did not use these loads on an Elk. Would have been lost for sure.

Am going to try 235 Speer hot cores in the future, but the loaded 260 Nosler BTs will be used on paper and I'll purchase no more.

Mike: I've had similar results with the 235 Speers.

Mike,

Forgive me if I'm a little dense, but what exactly was disappointing? No exit wound? A two shot kill? Extensive internal damage? Were you expecting that 260gr bullet to kill, dress, butcher, and freezer wrap that little buck? Sounds like he was dead on his feet when you polished him off. Why exactly do you feel this would have been inadequate for elk?

Sounds to me like those BT's worked perfectly. I'd give them a whirl on elk!

FWIW

Sounds like crummy bullet performance to me. That caliber should have punched clear through. I've always been a firm believer in heaviest, or next to it, bullet for caliber. I definitely would not want to shoot an elk with that bullet. I killed a buck yesterday with a 6.5X55 out of an old original 96 Swedish Mauser, and he went down like the ground was jerked from under him. Same with a doe two weeks ago. Heavy slow bullet.
If you are going to shoot a caliber, use a bullet that is up to the potential of the bore size. If your shooting that light of bullet in that bore size, you may as well be shooting a .338, or a .30-06.with a similar weight bullet. And they will definitely go through.
I believe i would get some correct loading data from the powder company. I believe you may be loading low enough to be in danger of a SEE condition.

Yep, it sounds like mighty poor bullet performance to me. The notion that you can throw THAT big a bullet at only 2,500 fps and not even produce an exit wound in a smallish sized deer in TWO instances would sure be all the proof I needed.

I don't think ANY bullet should be blowing up on impact with a thin skinned animal...excluding an extra-thin, varmit bullet designed to blow up on anything.

Your story convinced me and if you at least hadn't delivered these bullets in the boiler room, you might still be looking for that deer.

Something wacky here.

For what it's worth, I have found bullets to vary not only between makers...but within CALIBERS within the same company. Just because you were getting good performance out of .30 caliber Nosler is no guarantee all the other Nosler calibers will perform the same. And then naturally there can even be variations within the lots.

Glad your story at least had a happy ending.
P-45

As a big fan of Nosler BT bullets and having never had one fail on me, even with big mule deer out of my .30-06 and .308, I'd like to point out that the 2500 fps is meerly a speculation of MV on this gentleman's part. Someone above aptly pointed out the possibility of SEE (Secondary Explosion Effect). If this gentleman was approaching SEE, the velocities could be well beyond what they were speculated at. The point of this is, I have yet to see one fail, and use a chronograph, don't guess. As an ending note, I will wholeheartedly agree with the statement "Use a heavy-for-caliber bullet at all times" I went through a phase about ten years ago where I thought the best deer medicine on earth would be a 125 gr. .30 cal BT. I used it at around 3100 fps out of my .308 and killed many deer with it in one shot, but it left a horrendous mess, even at 300 yds. I then switched to 150 gr. in teh .308 and 165 gr. in the .30-06 and hvae been pleased ever since.
Yardbird

"Someone above aptly pointed out the possibility of SEE (Secondary Explosion Effect). If this gentleman was approaching SEE, the velocities could be well beyond what they were speculated at."

I believe you misunderstand the results and causes of SEE. This occurs with a case loaded well below capacity. The ignition of the primer pushes the bullet forward from the case, and then the main powder charge ignites. This creates a back pressure curve, working like a bore obstruction. In SEE conditions, velocity of rounds that are fired before failure, are generally low in FPS.

Mike,

That is unfortunate. I had beautiful results with them in Africa this year. Pass throughs on everything except a reedbuck I shot through the front of his chest.

Just pulled in from wisconsin today. I dropped four whitetails, four shots, 30/06, 180 gr ballistic tips over 57 gr. of IMR 4350. Ranges from 20 yards to 110 yards. In three shoulder shots, I intended to smash bone and did. Complete penetration occured in all three. Thirty cal entry, fifty cal or better exit. Complete devestation of everything in between. The other was an intentional neck shot again complete penetration. All dropped on the spot or within a matter of yards. I have been using this load for twelve years and have taken at least 35 deer, probably more. The ranges have been 10 feet to just shy of 400 yards. I have not had one single bullet failure, nor have I lost an animal. When we were processing and comparing my animals with my friends deer it was noted that this round did no worse damage than a 264 Win mag, or a 7mm mag, both with 140 gr bullets.

Waksupi, thanks for correcting me on the effects of SEE. I admit that I don't completely understand it, but it made sense to me that if that much pressure is being generated, it would propel the bullet faster, because velocity is a product of chamber pressure, is it not? But your expanation makes more sense than my assumption did, that's what I get for assuming, made an ass out of me!
Yardbird

Without debating the issue myself, it is interesting to note that this is NOT an issue that follows so many other very capable bullets around the NET. Ever wonder why?

Dan, check the archives.....

I interpret "massive shock trauma to the intestinal tract" as gut shot. No bullet will kill clean with a gut shot.

I finished a month of intense big game hunting on November 24. I killed three deer during that time, all of then does. I used Combined Technology Balistic Silver Tips, which except for the moly coating, are Balistic Tips.

Deer one, a small doe, shot quartering toward me at around 60 degrees at approximately 50 feet range. Shot hit just behind the shoulder, shredded both lungs and heart and exited out the left rear chest cavity. Large entrance hole, small exit hole. Deer tunred and made one jump and collapsed in the middle of jump two.

Deer 2. Button buck. Full broadside shot. Range, 120 + - yards. Shot took out both lungs and heart and exited. Deer took three jumps and piled up.

Deer 3. Full grown doe. Range 160 to 170 yards quartering away at 60 to 70 degrees. I hit her chest one or two ribs forward from the back of her rib cage. The entry took out a wound tract that was just a little wider than a domino and about 3 dominoes long. It shredded the left lung, severed the heart from her lungs, did great damage to her right lung, then prenetrated her neck along an inside wound channel and lodged under the skin, about two inches behind her right ear, where I found it when I skinned her. All told, the bullet penetrated 2 to 2.5 feet of tissue. I found the jacket totally separated from the lead. She took a step and collapsed.

Deer one had some wasted meat, maybe a steak or two.

Deer two, even less. All of it ribs.

Deer three, no wasted meat except for the neck, heart and liver, which I don't eat.

Some would say the bullet I fired into deer three failed. I disagree.

Some on this form don't want complete penetration, the phantom "energy" dump, and others want the bullet to completely penetrate. I had two of one and one of the other in the deer i killed, and a bullet "failure", yet none of the animals I shot moved more than a single reflex action allowed.

I killed these animals cleanly becasue I passed up a lot of shots that would not have been clean. I have a rule and that rule evolved and jelled reading this and other forms: The bullet is only as good as the hunter pulling the trigger. Pull the trigger on a bad shot, and the chance of bullet failure goes up.

Guys,

Have more data as a result of breaking the deer down yesterday afternoon.

The first shot impacted on the right side of the deer about 5" behind the foreleg and a bit lower than I might have liked. Deer did appear to be standing broadside to me. The projectile took a left turn going through the ribs ... hit one on the side ... and went through the gut exiting in the low side of the left quarter. The exit would was not obvious until skinning. The meat of the quarter was not blood shot at all. Except for the bounce, it acted exactly as Ann noted on Kudu ... nice sized hole, but no massive pulverization of meat.

The second projectile impact was again on a right broadside presentation. The impact point was just about perfect ... 2" just behind the foreleg and a bit higher. This slug did appear to have detonated leaving a fist sized entry wound but not discernable exit. May have been one, but I could not find it and I was looking pretty hard for it.

So ... I'd have to conclude that there is still a worry about this load at close range. 25 yards is just too close.

A better hit on the first round would obviously have been better, and would have had better data if I'd not fired the second shot. Just couldn't stand there and see the fella in pain (although that really wasn't likely as he'd probably have been in complete shock.)

If there is other experience with 235 Speer Hot Cores that is questionable, seems that partitions in a slow load would be the next best thing for lighter game. Will have to cogitate that for a little while.

So ... partly the luck of the draw and maybe my not having done as good a job as I should have ... and partly remaining worry about the sturdiness of the projectile.

By the way, still have a bunch of 150 gr NBTs loaded in 308 that have performed well in the past and I'll continue to use those where noise is an issue.

Thanks for the comments, and sorry for the incomplete data.

my 2 cents:
Cartrige: 7x57
bullet: Nosler BT 140 grains, chronographed 2740fps.
game: Blackbuck
distance - 120 yds.
broadside shot, just behind the shoulder. blackie turned around himself and fell down, no more than 3 steps away.
Extensive damage to lungs and big vessels, lots of hemorrhage in chest cavity.
bullet recovered under the hide of the other side - just the base, weighting just 57 grains.
conclusion: back to my beloved hornady ionterlock 175 grainers, spitzers.

mstarling

I think the problem was that the projectiles were too big for the deer in question,how big was the deer.

I've seen the 165 grain balistic tips fired from a 30-06 under perform on smaller pigs(pass through with little damage & almost undetectable exit holes)less than 100pounds but work perfectly on pigs from 150 to 400 pounds.

Used 130 grain bt's in a 270 win & they preformed perfectly on pigs up to 400 pounds,same with the 140 grainers from my 7mm-08,even shot a couple of donkeys with the 140's,they both dropped where shot.
I dont think those big projectiles would have a chance to work properly on a small deer unless they hit a major bone on the way through.

Just my thoughts.

I thought what the name ballistic means is just that? The bullet would go �ballistic� when hitting the target and therefore when I use them I aim for the head or the neck. I shot a common seal with a 180 g ballistic from a 300WM loaded with 77g of Vihtavuori N165 and cut the upper half of its head clean of, the range maybe just under 100 meters and a Reindeer at 200 m with the same load, in the neck and the bullet exploded and the animal fell in its tracks. There was no exit wound and I was satisfied with the results.

fwiw--I loaded a friends .270 win with 140 hornady sst's for wis. whitetail season. I loaded 57.0 of h4831. Don't know why it was so slow but it only chrono'd at 2700 fps out of a 22" barrel. Anyhow I haven't got the complete details but I talked to him briefly and he reported a baseball sized hole exiting a doe!! I'll have to get more details but they sure don't sound any tougher than a ballistic tip!! (Good thing they chrono'd so slow!!)

mstarling:

Seems like a massive calibre for deer? The blow up seems weird @ 2500 fps. in a round that size. So many people speak of the .375 H&H as your ideal all-round African rifle. I guess you wouldn't want those loads there.

Boattail topic:

Some years back I tried Speer BT's in .270. I lost faith in them because of blow up when "too close." I was told the theory is they need to open fast to be reliable below 2000 fps at 300-400 yards, so they are predisposed to disaster in close. IMO, anybody in bear woods needs to be able to protect himself in close, so I've never carried BT's since. Kinda funny, because before I opted out of BT's I hunted black bears with them. I just don't wanna get caught close.

Anybody care to comment on this? Surely there are bears everywhere and lots of guys carry BT's?

Gentlemen,
the reason these failures surface from time to time and the reason some can't seem to believe that a certain bullet fails is because they have yet to have one fail on them...All standard bullets fail, the problem is they don't fail very often, most of the time they work fine....

This is why I use Premium bullets for all game larger than deer, and even then I tend to go ahead and use a premium...

A Nosler partition beats a long drawn out tracking job any day, and the difference in cost is 2 cents less than nothing.....

When someone drags out that old rib, "At what point did the bullet fail that killed the animal" I usually tell them when the second and thrid shot didn't fail!!!

If he had taken that shot with that bullet at that velocity at that elk going away wounded, he would have lost a fine regal animal to bullet failure, no excuse for that on his part or anyone elses, use a good bullet....

I would rather hunt elk with a 250 Savage and a good bullet than a 375 with a bad bullet....Killing game is more in the correct bullet not the caliber IMO.

Add me to the list of ballistic tip "confused". Last year I detailed a friend popping a mature cow elk at 300+ yds with a shoulder shot that piled her up in half a second. .300 Win Mag with 180 BT's.
Two weeks ago......same gun, same guy, same shot, but right at 300 yds, and we ended up trailing him for hours. The BT blew up on the shoulder. After some hiking we finally got him. I told him; "Next year; PARTITIONS"!

Then a few days later I killed a nice 10 pt whitetail at 200 yds with a 150 BT from my .280 AI. Hit him just to the rear of the shoulder bones and took out both lungs, while wasting nothing but ribs.At the shot he ran maybe ten yds and was on the way down the instant of impact.

I am having a hard time using the smaller BT's on anything bigger than deer or antelope. For elk I'll stick to Swift Scirrocos or partitions.

FN in MT

[ 12-02-2002, 07:13: Message edited by: Frank Nowakowski ]

Frank-
Your last couple of experiences with BTs and elk are precisely why I quit such bullets. You can't rely on them every time. For deer and antelope they're fine, but even then I'd just as soon stay with a partition. My last two years of deer and antelope hunting have seen me trying Hornadys and the results weren't good, IMO. Like Ray, I get tired of that old line about what time during the animal's demise the bullet failed. If it doesn't make two holes in the animal it failed, period.

Pretty hard to beat partitions, A frames and x bullets. They dont cost that much more. And they are reliable.

Happy hunting

sciroccos. just got back from africa took 11 plains game with 300 win mag 180grains. i dont think these bullets are tough enough for the bigger animals. they worked good for the most part but the ones (5) i recovered were losing around 45% bullet weight. also at 14o yds i clearly hit a gemsbuck right on the shoulder and my ph and i waited for it to drop. it didnt so i polked when in the base of the neck and it dropped. there was nothing left of the first shot and it never made it into the chest. ill bring a frames next time.

I mentioned this previously in another thread. A client in camp, this past season, shot a very nice Dall ram at a little over one hundred yards and the A-frame blew apart into three pieces but killed the ram immediately. The same A-frames killed a seven foot mountain grizzly at forty FEET
and held together perfectly. Both of these trophies were taken with a 7mm UltraMag. As before, I mean this as no knock on the A-frames, just information for the discussion. I believe all of them, even the premiums, fail occasionally.

Joe

I like balistic tips because they do devastating damage like Mr. Starling described. But they are definitely not an elk bullet. I think that Nosler should print a warning on the boxes that states, "NOT FOR GAME WEIGHING MORE THAN 300 POUNDS." I did use ballistic tips on an elk once and there was no exit from 2 shots. One shot was into the chest and the other was into the base of the neck.

I have taken a total of four elk and two bull moose using 180 gr ballistic tips in my 300 ultramag.All were quick,clean one shot kills and all bullets exited but one.I have also taken about 30 head of other big game including pronghorns ,bighorns and deer (several which weighed in excess of 300 lbs)with 140 gr ballistic tips in my 7mm stw's and 100gr ballistic tips in my 257wby mag.To date not one animal has covered 50 yards after being hit and I have not had one bullet failure to date.

I think considering bullet Sectional Density is important for selecting a Big Game bullet. It seems "light weight for caliber bullets" give up SD in exchange for increased velocity. I subscribe to the original or slightly heavier bullet weight for caliber theory.

mstarling
Switching to Speer Hot cores will not help I shot a Muley doe at 80 yds and had the exact same thing happen!! Total bullet blow up!! Wrote Speer and they told me to expext that to happen with these Hot Core at that range!! There Hot cores are designed for optimal performance between 175- 350 yds anything closer expect total bullet break-up passed 350 the bullet might not mushroom. So thats why I'm use Barnes X so atleast I'll have an exist wound at short ranges.

I often hunt whitetail deer with a .300 Weatherby. Don't ask me why, I just like this rifle (Sako) and enjoy shooting it. Since a lot of the deer I shoot are at short range, this year I decided to use the 180 grain Scirocco because it's supposed to be a tougher bullet than the Ballistic Tips, etal. On opening day (Nov. 23rd) I shot a 190lb 10 point at about 20 yards using this combination. I shot him behind the left shoulder and expected to find an exit wound on the other side, but the bullet veered left after it entered and wound up under the hide on the off shoulder.

As I mentioned on another thread, I was somewhat disappointed in the performance of this bullet. It killed the deer alright, but I prefer an exit wound and didn't get it. I lost the bullet, so I didn't get to weigh it, but I'd say it retained about 60 to 70 percent of its weight just by looking at it. This is okay I guess, but I was taken aback by the shape of the recovered bullet. It was about 1 inch in diameter and flat as a damn pancake. It peeled practically all the way back to the base and there was virtually no shank remaining. For predictable bullet performance I think a bullet needs to retain more of its shank. With no shank, there's no telling where it's going to end up. I always shoot em' behind the shoulder to minimize meat damage, but in this case I got a torn up right shoulder.

Anyway, I've decided not to use these anymore, at least not in the .300 Wby. Too much velocity I guess. I'll be using the North Forks the rest of this season instead.

I have shot Nosler Bullets for Years in every caliber of rifle I own. I like the Ballistic Tips but they are not in my opinion a good bullet selection for close range. At close range I will neck shoot an animal with a BT before shooting into the body. The best all round performing Bullet has to be the Nosler Partition good close and long range. Not as fancy looking but is totally bad to the bone.
Just one Hunters Opinion.

I have used the NBT exclusively for deer and antelope in no less than eight different calibers from 257 to 30/06 and never had any problems. The one thing I have noticed is they like spped. Maybe the 375 bullet wasn't gping fast enough to perform.

If we think about how the ballistic tip bullets work it isn't surprising that the reports of their performance are so inconsistent. At impact the tip is driven back through the core like a wedge. In a game animal there are many different types of tissues that could cause the wedge, and therefore the bullet, to perform erratically. If the tip is driven back all the way through the lead core "explosion" of the bullet would not be unexpected. However, if the tip were pushed aside (before it could be driven back through the lead) as the bullet began to mushroom there would presumably be much more weight retention and penetration. If you expect the bullet to behave the same every time it hits an animal, you are asking the tip/wedge to behave the same, which just isn't likely when you consider the different effects of hitting bone vs muscle vs fat etc.

Now, here are a couple ideas... How about a ballistic tipped bullet that had a partition? This way you would have all the ballistic benefits of the ballistic tip, but you could count on a consistent amount of minimum weight retention. Or how about a tip that would be destroyed on impact and allow the bullet to act like any other soft tipped bullet. Again, you would have all the benefits of the ballistic tip in flight, but the variable of the tip would be minimized on game. Just my $.02.

Bob

I like the Nosler bullets but one must understand that BT's have their limitations. They are okay on thin skin animals and if you hit the vital areas and not shoulder bones. The BT will expand very fast on impact but if you hit heavy bone, you will not get good penetration. They do give great accuracy but my preference would be the "Partitions" for overall performance.

Ladies and Gentleman,

BT's have given me as a hunting guide lots of trouble over the years. My experience with them is much the same as many have mentioned here. Two weeks ago a long - time client of mine came deer hunting and showed up with a 30-06 with BT's. "Oh No" I thought to my self. First day out he shot a huge bodied muley with a fine rack at 150 yards. The target was standing broadside and he aimed behind the shoulder at my request. He hit the deer which immediately stood on it's hind legs and danced in a circle for what seemed to be about 30 seconds. Then he came down and DID IT AGAIN! Heart shot I figured. Then he took of running and went out of sight. I noted that his right front shoulder was broken. When we arrived at the sight there was very little blood so I tracked the deer on some softish soil in the timber. After an hour he broke out into semi- open country and we spotted him standing under a tree about 300 yards away. We made a stalk to get much closer. On the way we bumped another nice buck that obviously was totally "rutted up" and kind of just stood there watching us stalk the wounded deer. As I peeked over the hill just below the deer it was evident that he knew we were there as the other deer alerted him. Maybe 75 yards away. Only shot was to stand up and shoot off hand. But the hunter wasn't able to connect and the wounded buck took off running and when the other buck saw he was injured he ran the wounded deer down and attacked him like he meant it. The wounded buck was 400 yards away before we knew it getting the hell gored out of him. Then it was dark. Searched the next 2 days. Nothing.

About four days after that my guide called me and said he'd found the deer dead next to a pond. On top of the deer was a huge mountain lion feeding. No tag though for the cat! He cut the head off and a day later I showed up and went to look at the deer carcass. Rather ripe! However the side he was shot on was undamaged by the cat so I did a bit of an autopsy and yes once again the same story. Bullet hit the deer square on the shoulder bone and exploded. Lots of shrapnel. No apparent entry into the chest.

This poor buck suffered for days, was gored and maybe killed or at least eaten by the cat all because of bullet failure.

I realize these BT's fly nice and make great groups and that many have realized success in using them but I sure hope you do not have to experience someting like this to see that BT's are vulnerable to failure.

[ 12-07-2002, 04:52: Message edited by: Keith Atcheson ]

I have always thought that aiming for the onside shoulder was stupid and a waste of eatin meat. I saw an identical bullet blowup where the shooter was using a 130 grain Sierra flat base out of a 270, the range was 40 yards. We recovered this one but it caused us to drag and carry the buck 4 miles. Why anyone would expect a bullet to be strong enough to crash through a shoulder muscle/ bone at short range and also expand at long range on ribs and lungs is beyond me. Scream Nosler partition if you want but after that bullet does penetrate the shoulder mass you have a small frontal area and not necessarily a short tracking job, this especially true on elk.

In the first place there are only three bullets that are suited to the 375H&H and they all weigh 300 grs. They are 300 gr Nosler Partitions, 300 gr RNSP Woodliegh, and 300 gr Woodliegh solids! All pushed at 2550 fps! They shoot a flat as is needed for a 375 H&H, and will handle anything from a 8 lb DIK-DIK, to an 8 ton Elephant. They do no meat, or pelt damage on little stuff, and penetrate deep on the big stuff! you can shoot a little 70 lb whitetail, or Impala, and eat right up to the hole!

The bullets listed here (235, and 260 both Boattail) are simply not suited to the 375 H&H cartridge, and are varmint bullets! Boattails of any make are notoreous for comeing apart, and sheding their jackets. The 375 H&H has a 1-12 twist, and is designed for the 300 gr bullet, and the boattail is nothing but trouble for anything other than long range target shooting of 3000 fps plus target shooting. The boattail has no possitive effect on a bullet traveling less that 3000 fps, but ARE prone to comeing apart! If you want to use 235 to 260 gr bullets use a 300 mag, or a 338 mag, then the bullet is made for hunting!

The Nosler bullet you used in the 375 H&H did not fail, it did exactly as it was designed to do, expand violently!

[ 12-07-2002, 22:25: Message edited by: MacD37 ]