I am struggling to be open minded. Can anyone cite an example of good game management of western public lands? I guess my definition would be a reasonable percentage of the population being allowed to reach maturity. The only place I can think of is the Arizona Strip and maybe a couple of New Mexico's quality elk units. Otherwise the shining lights are all on private land. Obviously pressure is one of the factors, but another significant factor, whether public or private, is predator control. I have had the good fortune of being on a few "Garden of Eden" ranches, and when one considers what is different, predator control is a common factor, and I am talking serious year around control. Game managers serve too many masters and that is part of the problem, but how they continue to ignore the predator issue is almost incomprehensible. Sorry guys, just bored and too much time to ponder.

Declining game management across the west is a result of piss poor fiscal management on the part of all game/fish depts everywhere. If you want something done effectively, efficiently and within budget...only the private sector can do so.

States continue to offer more tags, and raise fees because the depts cannot financially manage what they have...despite huge revenues. They all have new trucks, to many useless employees, ridiculous spending habits and all because nobody is truly responsible for the bottom line.

Take Idaho (where I live) for example...in 2018 they generated $101 million in revenue, yet they spent over $104 million! What's the solution in their eyes...raise license fees again, and sell more tags! That's not sound game management, that's trying to fill the gap despite it!

I will say however...good quality trophy hunting still exists in virtually every state, and on public land too. You just gotta know where / how to find it. I've lived here for 2 years now, I've taken 3 bull elk on public land...a 305", a 360" and a 379". I've also taken a B&C moose with my bow. We could have more of this if we could ever get all game management into the private sector where fiscal accountability is a thing!

You have to ask what it looks like to you.

In states where the population of people (and in turn hunters) is so high that it causes a huge demand on the wildlife population it is hard to see a situation where proper management works.

Utah limits in state residents to only apply for one or two tags and they are only allowed to draw two tags. Non-residents can apply for everything but I think they area only allowed to have one tag.

Utah has incredible demand. Idaho has a similar model for non-residents where they can only apply for 1 species.

I do not know why more states have not gone to this model.

Every state has poaching, deer hit by vehicles, trains, and so on and predation. Every state handles that end of management differently.

There is something else, something that tells me that management is very cyclical. A wildlife manager attempts to manage all species as needed, but focuses on those that make the state money.

The hunting public does not understand that wildlife populations and quality are very cyclical, they have been this way before man kind was involved and continue to be this way today.

"a reasonable percentage of the population being allowed to reach maturity"

This line in interesting. I'd say most Western States allow a large portion of their herds to reach maturity. Or are you only referring to antlers and horns?

If it is antlers and horns then what is "Mature"? Is mature based off their max of antler growth potential including environmental factors (water, feed) or is it just when the animal comes into the age window of antler growth potential?

Is a 220" 4 year old mule deer buck mature or is a 130" 6 year old mule deer buck mature?

I guess I'd want to understand the definition of mature. There are many herds of deer, elk, pronghorn, moose, sheep and goats living in the Western US which produce substantial numbers of what I'd consider mature.

"Game managers serve too many masters and that is part of the problem, but how they continue to ignore the predator issue is almost incomprehensible."

Most every Western State has cougars and bears listed as protected. There is little a private ranch can do to control populations further than public lands. Depredation being the one avenue. The areas I am familiar with in CO, WY, UT all have more pressure on coyotes on public lands than on private lands.

For me, I like to hunt. I like to hunt deer and elk and antelope because those species offer the most consistent opportunities. And I wager other people like to hunt them too. So I like to see tags available when the populations can sustain the harvest and not just to grow inches.

MC, for the purpose of discussion lets call mature mule deer one that is 5 1/2 or older. Obviously I do not have hard data to back it up, but I am convinced that a 5 1/2 or older buck is a pretty rare animal. Aaron, notes some positives in Idaho. I lived in Idaho in the early 1970's. Almost anyone that put in the effort could take 170-180" bucks from public land. Heck I knew a guy from Twin Falls that killed two book deer in one year. I wish it was the same, but guys it just is not.

You are correct sustaining population and growing inches is not the same challenge. That is exactly what I mean when I said the F&G people serve too many masters. Go back and read Aaron's comments, there is a lot of meat in there.

I've been hunting the same area of southern Colorado for over 35 years. When I took my first elk there in the 1980's it was a 3x3 and everyone in camp was thrilled to see such a great trophy. It was the only bull seen by anyone, along with precious few cows and one mule deer buck. No cow permits were available.

Shortly thereafter CG&F put a point restriction on both elk and deer which was in place for a number of years.

Fast forward 20 years and my son took a beautiful 6x6 on the same place, which was one of three bulls shot by our group. And each year now we take at least one cow for meat and see many more quality elk and deer than in years past.

I'm sure that game management isn't as effective in other states (and maybe not even in other area of Colorado), but it has served well in the area I hunt.

The trophy hunter "master" is only one aspect of game management. The other "master" is hunting opportunity. They really have to walk the tight-rope to serve both masters in general OTC hunting areas.

Limited trophy opportunities exist but drawing the tags are difficult and many (if not most) game managers manage for opportunity, if the resource can bear the pressure.

I'd suspect most hunters really don't want total limited quota vs opportunity for the sake of a trophy to the point of exclusion from the sport.

I get your point but with the human populations so high, all vying for something to hunt, managing for what you want is unrealistic in all areas/units.

There's my 2 cents
Zeke

quote:

Originally posted by ZekeShikar:
The trophy hunter "master" is only one aspect of game management. The other "master" is hunting opportunity. They really have to walk the tight-rope to serve both masters in general OTC hunting areas.

Limited trophy opportunities exist but drawing the tags are difficult and many (if not most) game managers manage for opportunity, if the resource can bear the pressure.

I'd suspect most hunters really don't want total limited quota vs opportunity for the sake of a trophy to the point of exclusion from the sport.

I get your point but with the human populations so high, all vying for something to hunt, managing for what you want is unrealistic in all areas/units.

There's my 2 cents
Zeke

Squeezenhope...this too is true. I'm personally a trophy hunter, but many are not. Managing for both opportunity and trophy options is no doubt tough...so I can respect the G&F depts for that difficulty.

Using Idaho again just as an example...we have many OTC tag options, with loads of public land to hunt. The 379" bull I shot just last fall, was taken on public land in a unit that both res / non res can buy the archery elk tag OTC and hunt for the whole month!!!

I would be much less inclined to criticize their efforts to manage our wildlife, if they just did it with fiscal responsibility and more emphasis on the game, and less of it on more needless salaried positions, new vehicles, and wasteful spending. Just my opinion...nothing more!

It would hard pressed to convince me that game mangers care more about the game then the amount of money they can bring in.

You guys have made several valid points. I guess I was focusing too narrowly on mule deer, which we know are in trouble throughout the west. In the last fifty years there have been numerous incidences of more and better elk hunting, albeit the wolf debacle, which gets us back to predation.

Let me give you a tip. If you ever see three or more coyotes together start shooting, they are up to no good.

Public land game management? doubt it. Look what they did with wolves and the disaster that way. Private land is the only way to go for game management. When I was a kid game wardens were hunters. Now many are anti hunting.

Squeezenhope.

If we're focused on mule deer, it's going to be tough sledding to get them to the level that would make us all happy!

I too trophy hunt but the mule deer hunt has become family time so I have not put the effort into trophy hunting since I've had grand kids old enough to tag along with me. I have seen a steady decline in both numbers and antler quality, especially over the past 5 years. There are some bright spots but they're fewer and farther between nowadays.

I don't have the answers but it's going to take some real effort and sacrifice if we all really want what you want. MOST hunters won't make the sacrifice and the game departments won't do without the cash (On that we all certainly agree). So, the managers do the best they can while serving many masters and doing so with one hand tied behind their back because they have to provide the dollars for the departments or they don't have a job.

Coyote hunting is one step I take to curb some of the predation. Between my buddy and I, we've managed to cull just short of 30 this past season. I've witnessed a single coyote cut a doe antelope from a herd and pull her down so I know they're hard on antelope and deer too. We have no legal options for bears, cougars or wolves beyond what we're allowed.

I prattled on a bit but you catch my frustration too.

Zeke

Zeke said

quote:

I've witnessed a single coyote cut a doe antelope from a herd and pull her down

Interesting. Sometime the Pronghorns turn the tables though.

While hunting speed goats in the Texas panhandle years go, we drove near the fence of the next-door pasture to observe a herd of Pronghorns. Suddenly a group of them broke loose and hauled it at top speed to our left and we then saw a large coyote ambling along in their pasture (one section per pasture). The coyote saw them bearing down just in time to escape through the fence into our pasture and we were were cheated from observing a very unusual confrontation between prey and predator. I have also seen longhorn cattle do the same when a coyote crosses their pasture.

Poor coyotes are unloved by all but their own.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Zeke said

quote:

I've witnessed a single coyote cut a doe antelope from a herd and pull her down

Interesting. Sometime the Pronghorns turn the tables though.

While hunting speed goats in the Texas panhandle years go, we drove near the fence of the next-door pasture to observe a herd of Pronghorns. Suddenly a group of them broke loose and hauled it at top speed to our left and we then saw a large coyote ambling along in their pasture (one section per pasture). The coyote saw them bearing down just in time to escape through the fence into our pasture and we were were cheated from observing a very unusual confrontation between prey and predator. I have also seen longhorn cattle do the same when a coyote crosses their pasture.

Poor coyotes are unloved by all but their own.

I have a client in New Mexico that has a picture of a dead coyote hanging off an old longhorn cow’s horn hanging in his office.

Thanks for the baseline- 5.5 year old mule deer. Utah's Henry Mtns and Paunsagaunt are famous as some of the best public lands mule deer hunting. The Strip is probably considered the best. All 3 average ages of around 5.5-6. The best hunting in the US and it barely meets the criteria of averaging 5.5 years old. So lets look at inches. Many 3.5 year old bucks are 170-180- depending on the water year. So if the era of flourishing mule deer was growing animals then the environment could sustain them. Just what if many of those 170 bucks killed in the 1970s were 3.5 year olds?

Aaron's rant is too tough for my tastes. How hard was game management when 1080 was strewn over the landscape and deer herds were growing and flourishing? Something switched over in the environment that has made growing mule deer very difficult- such as predators/habitat quality. Game agencies should always put the deer herd health first over dollars and over trophy/opportunity. No game agency has figured out how to grow mule deer populations like elk or pronghorn.

As for game agencies managing by too many masters, that is a tough one. I'd rather hunt more often and try to kill a mature deer than hunt less often and have an assured chance at a 5.5 year old buck.

To do what you are wanting statewide in Utah- average a 5.5 mule deer buck we would have approx 10,000 tags statewide. 130,000 applicants and a guy gets to hunt once every 10 years or so. That kind of sucks, in my opinion.

My passion is hunting mature mule deer. Not much in life is better than seeing 3 week old twin fawns bouncing thru the sage. I just don't see how we can manage mule deer out of the brink with the current tools game agencies have to use in their tool box.

It is sure nice to shoot trophy animals.

I will probably apply for 50-70 separate tags this year. Texas, Wyoming, New Mexico and Arizona. I'll also buy another 20 tag raffles, and participate in another 72 hunting trip raffles.

I expect to draw another 4 tags.

I am kind of torn on what hunts I am going to book this year. If I don't end up with a bear on my hunt in a few weeks, I'll probably do an outfitted bear hunt in August.

Later in the year I am going to book some exotics when they open up.

That will probably be it.

Personally I have 3 priorities in the draws.

1. I want to see enough mature males to have an opportunity to kill one.

2. It is nice to shoot something huge, I am happy to shoot something mature. A hunt with no game, is like being the only straight guy in a bar full of lesbians. I don't see the point.

3. I like limited entry tags where I don't have to share the hunting area with many people.

quote:

Originally posted by squeezenhope:
I am struggling to be open minded. Can anyone cite an example of good game management of western public lands? I guess my definition would be a reasonable percentage of the population being allowed to reach maturity.

There are lots of areas that meet your criteria all across the West. Heck, even California has lots of areas that are managed to your standard of "good game management". But every one of these areas, regardless of which state you are looking at, requires lots of points or very long odds to draw the tag.

But if you are wanting states to manage every heard in their state for maximum trophy quality you are in the minority. Most hunters want to get out and hunt each year, or at least most years.

If states limited tags in all area to ensure the trophy quality you seek, hunters would not be able to hunt more than a few times in their lifetimes.

quote:

Originally posted by MC:
Utah's Henry Mtns and Paunsagaunt are famous as some of the best public lands mule deer hunting. The Strip is probably considered the best. All 3 average ages of around 5.5-6. The best hunting in the US and it barely meets the criteria of averaging 5.5 years old.

There is a TON of wisdom in MC's post. It is worth reading at least twice. But I believe it's misleading to say that these areas "barely meet the criteria" for two reasons:

First, the fact that they average 5.5-6 year old bucks harvested tells us that a lot of bucks above this age range are harvested each year. It also tells us that there are a lot of bucks younger than 5.5 years old harvested each year.

All three areas mentioned require a lot of points and/or a lot of luck to draw a tag. So no one gets to hunt these areas very often. The success rates are very high which tells us that most hunters fill there tag, many of them with bucks that are younger than the specified 5.5 years old. And you can bet that a lot of the 3.5 and 4.5 year old bucks are in the 170" range.

There are not many guys that would pass on a 170" 4.5 year old buck as the season winds down in an area that they waited 20 years for their chance to hunt. If guys did pass on these bucks the average would up, but how many guys are willing to eat that tag?

My Passion is hunting shooting a "trophy" is nice but not necessary.

I like eating game.

People who only "trophy" hunt must not eat much game meat.

Trophy hunters and fishermen are great for trying to force their hunting/fishing style unto others.

Must only shoot/catch the biggest everything else is not worthy.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
My Passion is hunting shooting a "trophy" is nice but not necessary.

I like eating game.

People who only "trophy" hunt must not eat much game meat.

Trophy hunters and fishermen are great for trying to force their hunting/fishing style unto others.

Must only shoot/catch the biggest everything else is not worthy.

Nothing wrong with trophy hunting...its one's style / choice over another. I strictly trophy hunt, because its what I enjoy most. Simply shooting an elk, deer, antelope, etc, is EASY...I prefer the challenge of finding the biggest / best, and trying to out smart em if I can.

I too like game meat...put two great bulls in the freezer this past fall. For a single guy, that's more meat than I need frankly...but I make do.

I don't care how others choose to hunt, generally there's opportunity for all, and often times we trophy hunters leave the young ones for the meat hunters to shoot...should they choose to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

I don't care how others choose to hunt, generally there's opportunity for all

And that is what is right about the system that we now have in place.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
There is a TON of wisdom in MC's post. It is worth reading at least twice. But I believe it's misleading to say that these areas "barely meet the criteria"?

I wasn't trying to mislead. Just using his base that a 5.5 year old buck was mature and showing that the very best public lands units are barely averaging that age on harvested bucks. There surely are older bucks in those units. I agree with everything else you said.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
I don't care how others choose to hunt, generally there's opportunity for all, and often times we trophy hunters leave the young ones for the meat hunters to shoot...should they choose to do so.

Aaron's last post is one I can agree with. I'd only add that those meat hunters also leave many of the older bucks for the trophy hunter to chase. They shoot a 2 point and go home rather than scouring the mountain for antler size.

This is an interesting discussion between the 2 philosophies- thus question of "too many masters".

quote:

Originally posted by MC:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
There is a TON of wisdom in MC's post. It is worth reading at least twice. But I believe it's misleading to say that these areas "barely meet the criteria"?

I wasn't trying to mislead. Just using his base that a 5.5 year old buck was mature and showing that the very best public lands units are barely averaging that age on harvested bucks. There surely are older bucks in those units. I agree with everything else you said.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
I don't care how others choose to hunt, generally there's opportunity for all, and often times we trophy hunters leave the young ones for the meat hunters to shoot...should they choose to do so.

Aaron's last post is one I can agree with. I'd only add that those meat hunters also leave many of the older bucks for the trophy hunter to chase. They shoot a 2 point and go home rather than scouring the mountain for antler size.

This is an interesting discussion between the 2 philosophies- thus question of "too many masters".

I would agree!!!

It has been a good discussion and probably needs to die a natural death. The "too many masters" just drives home the point that no one can be totally satisfied with the results. Now on private land, with only one goal in mind you can and do see fabulous results, whether it be mule deer, whitetails or elk. It is not rocket science, it's age, genetics, food and predator
control.

quote:

Originally posted by squeezenhope:
Now on private land, with only one goal in mind you can and do see fabulous results, whether it be mule deer, whitetails or elk. It is not rocket science, it's age, genetics, food and predator
control.

I have enjoyed this thread. Now I would like to know: if game management was in your hands, how would you run things. In other words, how would you achieve your goal?

I know that you mentioned predator control, but what would you do to improve feed and ensure that animals are able to reach maturity?

Pennsylvania is a the poster child of bad management in the east. Pa. is a blue state as far as politics nearly every state run agency is stuffed with Democrats whether elected or appointed. Typical democrat spending with little oversight has gutted the wildlife agencies .

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by squeezenhope:
Now on private land, with only one goal in mind you can and do see fabulous results, whether it be mule deer, whitetails or elk. It is not rocket science, it's age, genetics, food and predator
control.

I have enjoyed this thread. Now I would like to know: if game management was in your hands, how would you run things. In other words, how would you achieve your goal?

I know that you mentioned predator control, but what would you do to improve feed and ensure that animals are able to reach maturity?

Not to answer for squeezenhope...but the very first thing I would do is put ALL game/fish depts into the private sector, where fiscal accountability is a thing. We all know that'll never happen...but a guy can dream!

Jason, I think you missed my point. No matter what path you choose as a "public agency" your results will be compromised. The meat hunters could care less about mature deer , elk, whatever. Most trophy hunters like game meat, but that's not what their after. There are budget constraints, on and on. State agencies are forced into middle of the road policies. They all do seem to have one thing in common, do nothing that will reduce revenues.

You have asked "how would I run things". Seriously, that question simple cannot be answered without a long list of qualifiers. One thing I would do is eliminate special primitive weapon seasons while allowing blokes to hunt with scoped 500 yard capable muzzleloaders!

Take a look at Texas, where game management is essentially in private hands due to land ownership. There, a private citizen with enough acreage and money can adopt a management plan and make it happen. That is precisely the point, there is no possibility of a state or federal agency adopting a game management plan that does not alienate a large percentage of hunters.

If I were king and "running things" there would be some Robin Hood out there shooting my deer, some for meat and some for the horns.

I've been dedicated (NEVER missed an application) to the "points" game in the pursuit of trophy deer and elk tags in my home State and I've drawn exactly 1 elk tag and 1 deer tag since 1994. That's not much hunting if we're talking about trophy-only hunting in the modern world!

All units in the State would have to be managed in this manner to produce that caliber of critters, for most winning applicants, because of the demand v resource. There would no longer be "general" tags available or at least easier to draw tags. We really don't have OTC tags for mule deer in my State anymore but we still call them general season tags and they're relatively easy to draw.

Most often, I'd rather just hunt and look for the best and make it a personal challenge rather than hunt for inches or even age only.

There's always a chance to run into that out-sized buck on about any unit. So, hunt I will but I won't be shocked if I don't find one of those monsters.

I suppose I'm simply saying "I'll take hunting over wishing for a limited tag".

...and if I were King, y'all would want to be my friend because that's the only way you'd be able to hunt. Here again we're talking about severely limiting access to the resource which would turn most into non-hunters.

I'm a hunter,
Zeke

quote:

Originally posted by ZekeShikar:
I've been dedicated (NEVER missed an application) to the "points" game in the pursuit of trophy deer and elk tags in my home State and I've drawn exactly 1 elk tag and 1 deer tag since 1994. That's not much hunting if we're talking about trophy-only hunting in the modern world!

All units in the State would have to be managed in this manner to produce that caliber of critters, for most winning applicants, because of the demand v resource. There would no longer be "general" tags available or at least easier to draw tags. We really don't have OTC tags for mule deer in my State anymore but we still call them general season tags and they're relatively easy to draw.

Most often, I'd rather just hunt and look for the best and make it a personal challenge rather than hunt for inches or even age only.

There's always a chance to run into that out-sized buck on about any unit. So, hunt I will but I won't be shocked if I don't find one of those monsters.

I suppose I'm simply saying "I'll take hunting over wishing for a limited tag".

...and if I were King, y'all would want to be my friend because that's the only way you'd be able to hunt. Here again we're talking about severely limiting access to the resource which would turn most into non-hunters.

I'm a hunter,
Zeke

I put in for the “once in a lifetime tags” too. I drew a great elk tag once. Other than that, my good hunting is either guided hunts that I’ve paid a premium for or my landowner tags on the ranch that I bought. I fully recognize that the first is only an option every few years for most folks and the latter is never an option for the vast majority.