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Ladies and Gentlemen: Are we at a point where the introduction of the grey wolf into the lower 48 states has so damaged the sport hunting industry that we as hunters must look at this issue as destructive competition to our pastime? My answer is yes, and there is only one avenue left to us: go 19th century on wolves. If they show up in Pennsylvania, I'll do my part. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | ||
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Get ready...there in Illinois and Indiana. Bob DRSS DSC SCI NRA & ISRA | |||
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I think it was done to hurt the sport of hunting and it sure as hell has. | |||
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Yep, they need to be aggressively managed. | |||
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Three S Rule applies: Shoot...Shovel...Shut-up JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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Dear Flippy: Insightful. Could be the perfect answer to wolf trouble. The mafia used to use a derivation of the three "S" policy in New Jersey. It involved the backwaters though. In response to President Obama's remark, here's my response. I'm a white guy from and currently living in Pennsylvania. I'm not bitter. I love guns. I'm religious, but not in the traditional way. So, do I kinda' qualify, Mr. President? Oh, yes, I will be voting this fall, Mr. President and in 2012. Now that you should be afraid of, the conservative voter. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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Count me in with the 19th Century guys. Just a side note here while I think about it. Several years ago, my son was hunting Deer in the UP during the late Archery hunt in December. Some guy who did the SSS routine on a collared Wolf forgot to do the second "S", and the federales located the decedent Wolf, and came looking for criminal. Son said, there were police cars everywhere, all roads surrounding the departed Wolf were blocked off, helicopters in the sky.. He said it was a sight to behold..  So, my point here is, if you select the SSS mode of Wolf Management, PLEASE do not forget to do ALL of the three S's..LMAO Donald, Interested in Wolf Management  | |||
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and most importantly of the three S's is the third. most people forget that one and tell "just one person." don't even tell your dog! NRA Life Member Gun Control - A theory espoused by some monumentally stupid people; who claim to believe, against all logic and common sense, that a violent predator who ignores the laws prohibiting them from robbing, raping, kidnapping, torturing and killing their fellow human beings will obey a law telling them that they cannot own a gun. | |||
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724 hit on the exact reason why the 3 S's never work. Folks that subscribe to that agenda or gas about it in cyberspace just can't keep their mouths shut. I don't have a dog in this fight but when I lived in WV, the road hunters were constantly whining about the coyotes killing all the deer when in truth there were more deer in the state than at any other time. So some facts would be interesting rather than a general tarring by a fellow from PA. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Yo Wasbeeman: Was that a "General" tarring or "general tarring" about wolves? I'm a bit confused. My eight years spent in California, during the mountain lion non-control (the lions loved canyon runners, tasty tid bit) and the three years in Colorado, including talking at great length with a NPS wolf expert among other "locals" about wolves showing up on the western slope on US-40 kinda gives me a little more perspective. Coyotes learned pretty quick not to cross the fence line on our farm in Berthoud, Colorado. I feel the same about wolves. Next question? Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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Quite a while ago, I read the wolf posts with interest. And to learn something about the situation. To date, all I've read was a lot of heat and anger and no facts. That's from both sides. So to make sweeping statements like ...has so damaged the sport hunting industry... without any facts means little. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Yo Wasbeeman: Go and read, talk to people who know what they are talking about like I have for the past seven years, follow the issue, and then get back to me. I have produced a call to arms (pun intended) after doing tons of research. How about you do some yourself. I'll give you a starting point, talk to some people who post on this forum from northern Wyoming like I have. God, I hate intellectual laziness. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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play nice boys there is a bill attached to the federal budget initiated by, of all people? harry reid of nevada,at the prompting of Sportsmen for fish and wildlife among others. there are 12 "tag along" bills allowed. the one that concerns this issue give all 50 states the right to manage wolves at state level. no more federal protection!! the budget bill is on Obama's desk as this is being written, waiting to be signed into law. beings how the dems wrote it,i anticipate it being signed, but am not holding my breath... big changes may be coming,concerning the wolf | |||
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Thanks for the update Ravenr. Seven years ago, I was hiking with a NPS wolf expert on the western slope in Colorado at Rocky Mountain National Park. We did a three hour hike. Man, did I learn about wolves. Everything he said about wolves is coming true. For example, he mentioned that if they introduced a pack of wolves in RMNP, they would be out of the park in no time flat. Why you ask? Because he said that wolves are lazy, and will just go to the front range to snack on pets instead of chasing elk down. Unfortunately, he mentioned that an unsupervised toddler looks a lot like a pet. I guess we'll find out about that example pretty soon. 1995 and counting until the next eradication. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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The big game organizations have the facts you request. I believe Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife has some interesting figures on Wolves following the calving of the different elk herds. Kind of a smorgasboard of Elk Veal. The cows are killed and the calf eaten just before or during delivery. The pictures really creaped me out. The Jackson Valley Moose Herd has been especially devastated. Or should I say nearly eliminated. As soon as the Feds feel the revinue pinch from a loss of Tax dollars directly related to hunting I believe they will act. Not until then. DW | |||
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Try learning something about wolves before you encourage people to engage in felony behavior. I have been around them my while life, and I spent this summer monitoring a pack where I hunt deer. Deer camp is in the middle of four sections. I habitually loop the land at sunset and count deer. Normally I count between 20 and forty. I know there are resident packs east and south and believe I am in the S/E corner of the pack's territory that visits me. The pack that visits include a pair that might go 150 Lbs, big, big animals. Inside that four sections are a lot of beef. I know of oneeef calf and one adult b that the wolves got. I would guess that there's probably twice as many deer as the most I have counted on the sunset loops. That's a lot of deer. Absent the wolves, we'd be back to five deer per person limits with an early antlerless season pretty quickly. We may still need that to keep the deer from being the agent of their own demise. You have to be careful with them around. You don't leave dogs chained out in the yard, particularly when you're not around. You don't let them run loose. If there's shooting in the immediate vicinity, wolves usually leave, unlike coyotes. Every wolf I have ever seen in the wild has been in a big hurry putting as much distance between him and me as possible. I don't see it worthwhile to risk losing my right to own guns when the situation is manageable. | |||
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Dear Miles58: Thank you for you factually based input. Does your situation in Minnesota compare to the introduction of the grey wolf in Idaho in 1995/1996? Oh, by the way, its not "felony behavior (sic)" that I am advocating, but first amendment protected speech as to the political foundation behind the lawsuits that are standing in the way of state by state control of their own wildlife, which include wolves. I see the unseemly hand of the anti-gun, anti-hunter behind these lawsuits to keep the wolf on the endangered species list. Wolves are an opportunity for those groups, not a real desire to see thriving wolf packs in their back yard. Your description of "don't leave dogs chained out in the yard, particularly when you're not around." speaks volumes to me about what becomes necessary when living in a wolf laden area. But your answer to my question about wolf predation effecting huntable game is relatively unanswered, except for your generalization that there would be too many deer in Minnesota without wolves to keep the numbers down. Please back that assertion up. You may be correct, but my question includes all areas where wolves are now in the lower 48, not merely Minnesota. I have followed and researched this issue since 2002 after discussing it at great length with an NPS wolf expert. My conclusion is humans, ample game populations and wolves are an impossible mix in the lower 48 states. To me it is pretty obvious what must happen. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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Ahhh, kinda backed off your inane chest thumping, huh. Chris. Does that mean when the wolves come to PA you won't do your part but rather will exercise your 1st amendment rights and talk to them. ROFLMAO As far as intellectual laziness is concerned, your post is no different than about a zillion others: Full of sound, fury, and bullshit. As I said, I haven't a dog in this fight but folks like you can certainly help me decide.  Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Yo Wasbeeman: Okay, I guess I'll have to translate for the less than stellar intellect. Here's the original post again: "Are we at a point where the introduction of the grey wolf into the lower 48 states has so damaged the sport hunting industry that we as hunters must look at this issue as destructive competition to our pastime? My answer is yes, and there is only one avenue left to us: go 19th century on wolves. If they show up in Pennsylvania, I'll do my part." First, this is a debate topic. Second, I posted this to generate ideas and support for the severe control of wolves in the lower 48 states. Third, I do not believe that this control is possible, and the likely conclusion is complete eradication of wolves in the lower 48 states. Does that help, bonehead? You would have shown some real intellectual energy by actually taking a position, instead of acting as a spineless critic. (Is that ad hominem enough for you, just to balance out your unpolished rhetoric?) One more chance, what is your opinion on wolves in the lower 48 states? Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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You're in the wrong room to be making idle personal attacks, you shithead. My intellect is fine! And I've wasted too much time screwing around with an asshole. When you've got something to say, try again. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Yo Wassy: Oh, a little angry are we? God, you were easy to goad. Still don't have an opinion about wolves in the lower 48 states do we? And all of your posts on this topic add up to what? Hugs and kisses sweety. Bye, bye. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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Dear Miles58: Now that was an answer. Thank you. I have no first hand experience with wolves. Nevertheless, I do have the patience and acumen to examine the question honestly. It is not a question of ethics. My conclusion is based upon the excessive predation caused by the introduction of wolves into the Idaho and Yellowstone zones in 1995 and 1996. It is a disaster for the hunting industry in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. My perusal of the Minnesota wolf situation coupled with your on site information leads me to believe that the wolf management in Minnesota is a different kettle of fish. I just had a in depth conversation two hours ago with an Idaho hunter and resident, who is on this forum, but will remain anonymous. His contention is that the balance of too many wolf births versus the much lower birth rates of elk calves will signal the demise of elk hunting in Idaho in the near future. You have more deer in Minnesota with wolves, and there are a lot less elk in Idaho again with wolves. So, what is the answer as to game (wolf) management in both areas? Most likely a different answer. Everything that the NPS wolf expert, with whom I spoke at great length in 2002 has come true, concerning the expansion of the packs from Idaho and the predation. It is funny how the two lead plaintiffs in the 2008 and the 2009 complaints to reinstate wolves onto the Endangered Species list say they are for good wildlife management, but only have pictures of predators on their web pages. Also, it is curious how they are only "saving the wolves" but not the deer, elk and moose. Seems a bit odd, doesn't it? Makes me wonder what their agenda really is, and who supports them. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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Gentlemen, I did a little looking for the correct web site for some "interesting" facts and photos about the wolf predation numbers in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming. Here is a link to the site, I'll try and find the power point presentation. I have a copy of it somewhere. Thanks for giving your attention to this most crucial of issues. http://www.biggameforever.org/ DWheels | |||
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Dear Dwheels: Thank you for the informative link. The 1994 quotation from the BC Canada wolf expert comports with the NPS wolf expert, Sam C.'s discussion with me in 2002. So far I don't see any real strides being taken to address this huge mistake of reintroducing the grey wolf into Idaho and Yellowstone. I can hardly wait until they are eating elk calves in western Pennsylvania. Then I guess I'll have "real experience" with wolves. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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I do not know what to make of the wolf situation in the western states. There's a lot of noise for sure, but I have yet to see definitive evidence that the populations of prey have actually declined any specific amount. There are claims. How much of the difference in prey population decline in a specific area is due to predation and how much due to relocation and how much is due to much more secretive behavior is not yet established by anyone credible to my knowledge. How much of the population prior to reintroduction was due to elk/deer/moose occupying areas that they could without predators present? If elk/deer/moose could successfully occupy an area that would otherwise be highly advantageous to predators and now with the reintroduction of predators they can no longer successfully occupy it, which species is "right" to occupy the land? We had much higher prey species populations before we humans modified the environment. We probably had much higher predator populations as well. When an area is vacated by one or the other the populations of the remaining species will change and there will be a temporary period of population adjustment. In much the same way introduction (reintroduction) of a species will see "adjustment". An introduced species may balloon all out of proportion to carrying capacity when it expands into a new environment. The case can be made that the huge populations of pheasants we had in the fifties was in part due to this effect and in part due to favorable conditions. Looking at an introduction time frame of the late nineteenth century to the early twentieth century gives us fifty years to reach what may be "p" populations. I do not know if that is what happened and what we have now is "normal", but I have seen the case made and find it reasonable. If you really want to know what to think about regarding wolves look at Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and BC. Much remains of their more original environments and the wolves and prey have neither been forced to the brink of extinction as have both in many places here. The population dynamics may be much more comprehensible without all the extraneous influences present here. I would be very reluctant to characterize any population changes of either prey or predator as definitive at such an early date after reintroduction. Either out west. or near where I hunt. The fact that I have both wolves and plenty of deer does not in any way mean that it will remain so. What I do know for sure, is that wolves are very smart. They are very wary, even when they haven't been shot at for generations. Wolves that get shot at are not easy to get another chance at. That makes them much less likely to engage in stock predation. I would not like to have to make a living killing wolves. It would be hard, unproductive work in this state, and you'd probably have to go at it like Alaska did, with aircraft. | |||
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Dear Miles58: Again thank you for your informative response. That was the purpose of my debate question. Nevertheless, I would like to explore your contention, you stated: "If you really want to know what to think about regarding wolves look at Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and BC. Much remains of their more original environments and the wolves and prey have neither been forced to the brink of extinction as have both in many places here. The population dynamics may be much more comprehensible without all the extraneous influences present here." Let me quote Jack O'Connor: "The great enemy of the caribou is the artic wolf, which for a decade around the time of World War II were on the upswing of a cycle. Just after the last big war, wolves about exterminated the caribou in the McKinley National Park in Alaska and in many other areas in the far north. In the area of the Yukon around Pilot Mountain where I hunted in 1950 and which was at one time famous caribou country, the animals have absolutely been exterminated and the only reminders of them are the bleaching bones and antlers of old wolf kills." "The Art of Big Game Hunting in North America", Jack O'Connor, 1967, page 204. Unlike you I have spoken with two hunters in Idaho, and Cody, Wyoming, among others, who all say the same thing: the wolves have exterminated elk herds in specific areas of Idaho and Wyoming. The prolific reproduction of wolves in Idaho and Wyoming are a testament to the wonderful eating opportunities that sportsmen have afforded them by paying for the management of lush game herds in and around the areas where they were reintroduced in 1995 and 1996. In my last travels through Idaho and Wyoming in 1998 and 1999, the locals, whom I talked with about wolves, said they were a bit of an annoyance as far as their killings of calves, but there was no great concern about wild game. That has all changed dramatically. How can you not know this? Just get on the Idaho Fish and Game web page. My friend in Idaho told me that the elk tags aren't even selling anymore, whereas 10 years ago you had to stand in line. The elk are rapidly disappearing in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming, and the only real change is the introduction of a new, efficient predator: wolves. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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If moose, elk and deer can coexist at relatively stable numbers with wolves in Minnesota, and we do indeed have more wolves than any of the western states, then how can a rational person claim to know what's going on in a mere fifteen years? Dave Mech and another biologist have done a fair amount of work in a very restricted island environment where moose and wolves have a rather intimate relationship and we are beginning to understand them a little now. With what we know of history of prey and predator populations in the lower 48 a century and a half ago It strikes me as a rather distinct lack of humility for anyone to claim an understanding of what is going on in this brief time. | |||
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I found this link to give good up to date information on the wolf situation. http://www.huntinfool.com/reso...6_SI_Wolf_Update.pdf ddj The best part of hunting and fishing was the thinking about going and the talking about it after you got back - Robert Ruark | |||
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Dear Miles58: Funny thing about this whole discussion about wolves, it that you are the second player on this thread to attack me personally. As a former litigator, and being Philadelphia born and bred, the ad hominem attacks run off my back like water. I used humor and just a taste of vitriol to run Wassy out of Dodge, but your attacks lack the same mindlessness per se. I'll just assume that you are losing the wolf argument, and leave it at that. Actually, 15 years is more than ample time to come to a valid conclusion about the effect of wolf predation in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. I think Idaho's decision to tell the feds to screw off, concerning wolf killings and labeling Idaho County a disaster area vis a vis big game, should pretty much seal my argument. I think the governor was quite articulate in his anger. But if you wish to chide me personally, then go right ahead, I plan on winning the case. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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Dear Trouthunterdj: Thank you for the huntin' fool article. I'll download it today, and read it tonight. I'll give you some feed back tomorrow night. These next two days will be manic. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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What the fuck is the matter with you? You haven't been attacked, you've been given information that does not agree with your preconceived notions of something you admittedly know nothing about. If you've got half the grace god gave rabbit turds you'll crawl back under the rock you live under and pay attention until you learn something, or you'll go out and spend a lifetime learning what it is you do not know before you come back here pissing down your leg about being attacked. | |||
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Miles - Two points of concern. I'm not sure we can compare the wolves in the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem to the wolves of Northern Minnesota. Also, aren't the Moose and Elk in Minnesota at all time lows? ddj The best part of hunting and fishing was the thinking about going and the talking about it after you got back - Robert Ruark | |||
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Chris, You are spot on with your analysis. Game and Fish Depts are decreasing harvest quotas in all areas that have wolf populations. They ARE having an impact in western areas. I have nothing against wolves. However, I have serious reservations about the true intentions of the introduction. And the subsequent lawsuit filings to stop management to maintain the populations at pre-stated goals. They need to be aggressively managed to numbers set by the individual states. Wolves are NOT endangered. Just look to Canada and Alaska. Left to their own, the wolves would have re-populated the lower 48. To spend the millions of dollars on re-introduction was a huge waste of resources IMO. | |||
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Another fact is that the States are going to have to increase license cost to make up for the lower tag numbers. It still take the same amount of money to run the game departments but with decreased tag numbers, increase the cost of the tags that are left, is the only way. I know Montana has proposed a increase in Nonresident tag fees of $200 for their Biggame and deer combination license. Increasing the cost of hunting will hurt new hunter numbers as well. ddj The best part of hunting and fishing was the thinking about going and the talking about it after you got back - Robert Ruark | |||
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Dear Trouthunterdj: I had some time to peruse part of the huntin' fool article. It comports with my conversations and research going back to 1998 and 2002. Actually, I made up my mind about this issue four years ago, and nothing has changed it. Thank you again for the link. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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Dear Miles58: Your post: "What the fuck is the matter with you? You haven't been attacked, you've been given information that does not agree with your preconceived notions of something you admittedly know nothing about. If you've got half the grace god gave rabbit turds you'll crawl back under the rock you live under and pay attention until you learn something, or you'll go out and spend a lifetime learning what it is you do not know before you come back here pissing down your leg about being attacked." This is not an ad hominem attack how? I knew you had it in you. It just took a little prodding. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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By the way, today is the final day under Governor Otter's time frame for the feds to get real about wolves in Idaho. I'm curious what will happen tomorrow. On the other hand the Idaho governor had to nix Idaho County's request for disaster qualification, since the county has recourse against wolves for domestic livestock loss and human attacks. Interestingly, he said that the lead plaintiff in the wolf lawsuits in Montana Federal District court is paying out to the ranchers for lost cattle. Funny, who's reimbursing hunters for the loss of game as paid for by their hunting licenses? Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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A couple of comments on various of the above comments. Wolves in Idaho are "altering" the habits and habitat of the remaining elk. Moreover they are definitely having a huge economic effect on the hunting industry. I'm a owner of an "inholding" in the Chamberlain Basin in the Frank Church. The Chamberlain was wonderful elk country and, unfortunately, it was also wonderful wolf country, not too steep, great trail system, etc. Elk were very, very numerous in the Chamberlain before the introduction (not re-introduction) of the Canadian Gray Wolf. Most of the Chamberlain is now an elk desert, largely devoid of elk, and the remaining elk are more and more locating themselves to those areas that are steeper, rockier and allow for greater defense by the elk. So far this season in our area (which is right in the heart of the Chamberlain)approximately 165 hunter days have resulted in the harvest of 2 small bulls and one 6x6 bull. Very few if any other animals were found (no wolves either as they too have moved out). Normally, i.e. before wolves, there would have been 10-15 very nice branch antlered bulls taken during this same period. It is clear to me that the elk have moved out or been exterminated in our area and much of the Chamberlain basin. Many of the long time outfitters are trying to sell their areas....good luck....This is having a ripple affect on the Idaho economy, which is not good. Idaho has (documented) 5 times the wolves it signed up for and probably more than that (increasing 20% a year). I agree with the post above that wolves cannot be controlled at these levels through hunting (they are too smart and the country too thick). I disagree with the post that this is going to result long term in increased license and tag fees. Idaho is already at tipping point, charging high tag and license fees (just the tag and license for an out of state hunter is approaching $700) hunters won't pay those fees for a very poor quality hunt. Outfitters will go broke. | |||
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EB - I agree with you to a point. There will always be hunters who will pay the fees. I worked for the US Fish and Wildlife in Montana at the time of the introductions and still have contacts. What choice do the states have but increase nonresident fees? They can't increase tag numbers. In Montana for example, the general deer combination draw sucess was around 35%. So 65% of those who applied didn't get a tag. Until there are more tags than application, the States will continue to increase the fees. Montana's Big Game combination may go from $640 this year to over $900 next year along with some changes to tag allotment. For a nonresident like myself that drives from Iowa and pays an outfitter or landowner, a 10% raise in cost isn't going to keep me from hunting...and the states know this as well. They have us. We can pay and hunt or sit at home. Some will sit at home but those that can pay will. And until there aren't enough applications for all the tags it will be this way. I hate the fact that hunting is becoming more of a rich mans sport and keeping new hunter from trying this wonderful sport! ddj The best part of hunting and fishing was the thinking about going and the talking about it after you got back - Robert Ruark | |||
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