This is a rant, it's about bad customer service and I think it's a valid one. Please read on.
I had some troubles with a HS Precision HRT rifle last year.
If you run some searches to my user name you'll find some of the post about it.

http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat...earch=true#Post45144

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tp...88/r/5871088#5871088

This is a link relating to another problem I had with HS and the same rifle:
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat...earch=true#Post45141

I got the rifle here in Italy from a local dealer through the national importer Bignami, I'll add that it cost me 2,800Euro, approx $3,470US after import tax and shiping.
Initally I was concerned with the bedding. The alluminium blocks had spillage of the stock material and it really was messy.
Nonetheless, the rifle came with a test target of .178MOA I got it to shoot to .3MOA with my handloads so I let it go.
Apparently the test target was shot with Federal Gold Medal Match ammo, which I only got to trying later on when it was ruined.

Back in August or September 2004 the groups started opening up and I started to get frustrated. I tried everything I could, a mechanical shooting rest that blocks the rifle, had a ex army sniper try it, tried shooting my other rifles to see if it wasn't my shooting. Nothing, th rifle was shooting around 3 inches @ 100.
I got some Federal Gold Medal Match ammo, 67Euro later and still no joy.
I checked the scope, mounts, inspected the bore, everything looked ok. I changed the scope and found it still shot uncontrollably.

It wasn't until I picked the rifle up off the bench that I felt the barrel turn in my hand that the penny dropped.
The barrel had come loose. I had never done anything that could have loosened, nor would I have any reason to, nor do I possess (or have access to) a barrel vice or any such equipment.

I contacted HS and expressed my concern, they were happy enough to carry out whatever work need to be done to fix it so I went on happy with the knowledge that I could get it fixed. In the mean time I tried tightening it by hand, together with a freind to see if it would fix it. The two of us twisted the barrel and action holding it rith rags as tight as we could and tried it. Still the same.

I called HS and told them I was going to send it in for repair as well as giving some very specific instructions and requests.
I made it absoluately clear that I would not be satisfied by any means of repair other than those of the HS Precision factory in the US.
I reitterated that I did NOT want the rifle to be handled by the Bignami gunsmiths because I do not have suffecient faith in them.
I also did not want Bignami to deal with the rifle because I feared it would be a year before I got the rifle back. Sending it back and forth would take the same amount of time but I figured at least I was going to get the most competent people to deal with it.
This is based on past experiences.
I also wasn't happy because I had a rifle that was supposedly capable of shooting .178 groups and I had ascertained that it could shoot at least .3 so I would have been slightly pissed to get a new rifle out of the deal and get one that only "just" made their .5MOA garantee.
That might sound a bit nitt picky, but after you shell out that much money for a rifle, I think it's reasonable.

I spoke with a man named Todd from HS Precision, (not the first time; see bedding link) who has handled the case. He was appolagetic enough said he would speak to Manfred and Andy, their correspondants from Bignami, and instruct them to send the rifle to him rather than deal with it in house.
He also rightly expressed concern about the incedent and wanted to get a chance to inspect the rifle himself.
Assured that the matter would be handled properly and also content that after I mentioned the trigger was very bad on the rifle, Todd said they would slip in one of their new triggers which are said to have been improved. Bonus.

I took the rifle to the local dealer I got it from, who, among other things, being a total wanker started a big argument because I told him exactly why I didn't want Bignami to touch it and he, being a gunsmith himself took offence it to all, going so far as to threaten not to send the rifle at all and accusing me of having unscrewd it myself... (why?)

After some time, I tried e-mailing Todd several times and got no response, it wasn't until I called that he told me that the e-mail address on their website does not work.
He still hadn't heard anything from Bignami, and I coudln't get in touch with Bignami. They do not deal with mere mortals, so I had to sit tight.

Time passed and I spoke with Todd at HS again about it, same response. Bignami hadn't mentioned the rifle.

At this point I'm wondering why I didn't ask him nicely to CALL Bignami and find out about it...

Well two weeks ago I heard from the local dealer that the rifle has arrived, repaired. He doesn't know who fixed it or what they did, it's still sealed but he does not think it went to the US.

I call HS again and Todd tells me he heard nothing of it. The rifle never made it to HS Precision, nor did Bignami mention it.

So...I have made maybe 5 phone calls to Todd at HS regarding this matter, sent numerous e-mail that never were answered or recieved, been fobbed off by Bignami because they don't deal with private persons, only dealers, argued with the local dealer and still didn't get the work I had requested.
My request was not only absolutely clear, but aslo I was told that it would be granted by Todd from HS, all along.

Again he was appolagetic enough but still hasn't been able to offer any kind of solution.

I think this is absolutely pathetic, on the part of HS Precision I hadn't expected it, I had put blind faith into the famed American customer service and diligence.

The rifle is still with the dealer, I have been out of town but tomorrow I'll go pick it up.
I have conceeded that if it still shoots .3 groups with the same ammo I'll keep it, because, as it has become clear, there is little hope of getting anything done about it.
Todd agreed that if the rifle should not shoot as it did before or if the repairs are not satisfactory then he would have Bignami send it to him and another look.
What is that worth to me now?

I do not have much faith that the rifle will be the same as before, I came up with and heard all manner of theories of what shooting with a (very)loose barrel(untill I realized it) could have done to the headspaceing, barrel/reciever threads, throat, chamber...I just don't know, but I know it didn't do it any good.
Bignami didn't ask HS to send for a new barrel, so at a guess they probably just screwed it back on to spec torque. Todd believes they are capable of fixing the headspace(if it is a headspace issue) and said he is optimistic that it will proove to be a good repair job.

If the rifle does not shoot as it used to I would like to send it back and have HS reimburse me the full amount I paid for the rifle, but I don't know how that will go over, nor do I have any means of enforcing my wishes from here should it come to that.

I feel that people should know about this, it I hope it casts the desired amount of bad light on HS Precision because I have only them to hold responsable, the barrel most likely came unscrewed due to an assembly error, and they promised to take it in for repair/replacement or whatever was in order.

What should I do? And if and when I discover that the rifle is not up to scratch and opt to return it to the factory for a full refund, do I have any legal ground to stand in on the US? Is there a cumsumer affairs agency who could take care of such a matter on behalf of a foreigner?

I'd get the rifle from that local guy (or whoever has it) and send it to HS myself, along with a detailed letter explaining the problem(s) with the gun. I have no doubt they will make it right. If not, call the state Attorney Generals office.

How did you pay for the rifle? If by credit card, and if your dealer is the jerk you seem to imply, ship the rifle to your dealer and then call your credit card company with a detailed description of what has happened. In short, cancel the charge and let the dealer work it out with the importer and H&S.

JMHO,

John

Express, first I would say that you are 100% right, but all this was to be expected, unfortunatly. IMO Bignami AND HS, decided to have your rifle fixed in Italy in order to avoid shipping charges, sending it there and back, as well as export/import permits and fees. I suspect that many American gun manufacturers consider us, Europeans, as a negligible part of the market, therefore I think that they tend to keep the better part of their production for the US, and send 2nd choice items abroad. Anyway it's a good idea to post on this forum; let HS know, you have a little chance to make them change their mind.

LB: I am not able to send the rifle myself, or raher, in theory it is possible, but it is a beurocratic red tape operation that requires time and dedication above and beyond what I can give it.
The process is simplified for dealers, and easier still for importers like Bignami.

Wildboar, I really hope that HS did not convene with Bignami not to send the rifle. If I find that out somehow I will start finding out what the State Atorney General can do for me.

John, I paid cash for it, unfortunately the credit card trick wouldn't work here either.
I tried it when I was wrongly charged by a hire car company and American Express Italy put me through so much frigmarole that the $500 odd dolllars wheren't worth the amount of trouble it was going to cost me.

The rifle has had 400 odd shots through it, all logged and recorded. I have owned it for nearly two years now, but it has been out of action due to this problem for almost all of this period. I initally contaced HS about the problem immediately.

Follow the link to old posting and you will see how the story unfolded.

This afternoon I will pick up the rifle and see how it shoots...

Express,

Too bad about paying cash. Amazingly, I have had very good luck with credit card companies. I had $1500 USD in vehicle body and paint work done once that was absolute garbage. When the vendor refused to honor his own warranty, I simply called Visa and , with a single fax from me, the charge was removed. This almost makes the high interest rates worthwhile!

Best of luck to you,

John

quote:

Originally posted by wildboar:
Express, first I would say that you are 100% right, but all this was to be expected, unfortunatly. IMO Bignami AND HS, decided to have your rifle fixed in Italy in order to avoid shipping charges, sending it there and back, as well as export/import permits and fees. I suspect that many American gun manufacturers consider us, Europeans, as a negligible part of the market, therefore I think that they tend to keep the better part of their production for the US, and send 2nd choice items abroad. Anyway it's a good idea to post on this forum; let HS know, you have a little chance to make them change their mind.

wildboar,
That is utter bullshit. The manufacturers send product according to what the importers specify. The question is, do the importers alter the specifications but not inform customers down the line?

Bignami is H-S Precision's agent in Italy; they have the responsibility for service/repairs as per their agency agreement with H-S Precision.

As this is a warranty issue, I think you are 'stuck' with Bignami for now. If Bignami screws up, then you have a beef you can refer to H-S Precision.

By the way, ask 'Todd' for his last name; if it's Todd Houghton, he is the founder's son. If anyone can resolve the issue, he can.

George

GeorgeS, I expressed a personal opinion that is based on what Express said and some experiences that I had in my life with several US manufactured guns. The behaviour of HS has not been as good as it could have been in this event. You can call it BS, no problem for me.

Express, and Wildbar, don't feel like it's a European thing, I've been dumped on severely by HS aas well, and I'm a regular old US Citizen, born and bred for 7 or 8 generations now.

I had a lot of conversations with Todd, the owner's son, and his sister, no help at all. Heinous behavior on their part. I would be happy to share the BS, but suffice it to say that it would be a worse story, and I suppose just some of the old misery loves company thing.

I think your rifle has a good chance to shoot as good as ever by the way, let us know.

Several folks I have run into at various rifle ranges have echoed the 'good product usually--heinous customer service always' mantra as applying to HS. Having said that, I do agree with George that I think your beef is with your importer or whatever Bignami ??? as much as with HS.

Good Luck--Don

Don, if this is the case maybe it would be worthwhile tying to reach the founding father of the company, the boss, whoever can reprise the lack of good customer relations.

I do not believe that even if this rifle can still shoot well, that HS should be relieved of any misdoings.

I spoke with HS directly and asked that they deal with the situation exclusively and they have the power to do so. My wish simply was not respected.

I may be getting ahead of myself, but Ithink that I might ask some people to post links to these threads on other forum sites.

On a similar note, but totally different situation, a friend of mine got shafted by a real estate agent. He had sign made up: I AM A VERY DISSATISFIED CUSTOMER OF _______ REAL ESTATE and I would not reccomdend them to any of my feinds.

The impact it had was incredible. The first sign dissappeared from his yard in the night. So he had one made up to go on top of his car. He dorve around the sate with it to all the branches of this office. In the end and after a lot of pleading the head honcho actually flew from 2500km to meet him and an undisclosed agreement was reached.

The power of one dissatisfied customer should not be underestimated and there is nothing illegal unethical in stating you are "DISSATISFIED" No accusations have been made nor any name calling.

I have praised HS where due and voiced my dissatisfaction where equally due.

I just got the rifle from the dealer. All it says on the repair sheet is "repair carried out under warranty"

Going by that it's safe to assume that they just screwed the barrel back on.

I will try and talk to Bignami again and find out what I can about the repair. If they just srewed it back together, the rifle is going back and I want my money back, no more of this messing around. For that money I can build a rifle on a 700 action and at least have a smith to refer to.

More details to come....

With the reciept from Bignami that my dealer gave me I was able to bluff past the receptionist and speak to the actual smith after the next lady I was passed to wasn't able to give me any information from their computer.

As it turns out, all they did was screw the barrel back in.

I will write Todd and see what he has to say about this.
It is exactly what I feared would happen and do not believe will have solved the problem. At the very least the headspace will have changed significantly and all the brass I had fireformed is useless(500 pieces of Lapua).

I do not want the rifle to go back to Bignami, for reasons that have now become clear and if it goes back to HS that will mean another lengthy wait.

Please someone tell me am I being unreasonable? Sometimes I wonder if it's me or the madness that surrounds me....

I am curious as to see if the rifle will shoot as well as before. If it shoots better will you still send it back?

Express, have you shot the gun yet? The results? I had no satisfaction from HS with a problem I had. I even went to the expense to travel to the NRA convention in KC several years ago. I talked to a man at the HS booth. He sounded uninterested in my problem and basically said "Oh." I never had any calls returned over this and won't think about buying another "custom" stock from them. I suggest buying McMillan. Pray for HS, they need it. Rant over. Packrattusnongratus

My next rifle will definitely be a H-S Precision!

You are not being unreasonable. Keep at it and stick it to them if they will not make it right.

I have a .300WM from H-S and liked it so much that I'm expecting my .375H&H any day now. I've had great service with Dave and wouldn't hesitate to do business with them again.

Hope your situation gets resolved, but I couldn't be happier.

Express,
I would return the rifle and have my money back

My experience when dealing with HS PRECISION is extremely delayed deliveries, wrong stocks, barrel profile, twists etc. I had two stocks crack and HS PRECISION refused to replace them…so much for their warranty!!

I don't think HS PRECISION cares about their customers so I will take my business elsewhere.

Cheers
/JOHAN

like many, i have only good things to say about hs precision. they have always been prompt, selling me what i consider to be a quality product at a reasonable price. while i have used other stocks, such as all the big names one reads about here, i prefer hs. regarding their rifles, i think they are as good as any available. as with everything made, one does get a lemon at times. if your rifle shot well before the barrel became loose, and it shoots well now after the barrel has been tightened at no cost to you, i'd say you got your money's worth. i do hope this all works out and at the end of the day you are satisfied.

It sounds like much is to blame on your import/export company. If Todd told you several times he had heard "nothing" of the rifle from Bignami then they were not comunicating the situation.
I won't ever say that everything will always go perfectly, but if HS never had a chance to fix the problem then they didn't get the chance. It is poor cuctomer service, but it sounds like it has much to do with Bignami. Nate

EXPRESS

You asked if your have been unreasonable. Am I unreasonable in this scenario. I buy a new Chevy 4X4 PU from my local dealer. It is rated at 20 MPG. The local dealer drove it as a demo and told me he got 24 MPG. I get 22 MPG. After driving it for a couple of hundred miles I see that all the lug bolts are loose. I take it back to the dealer and insist that they send it back to Deroit to have the lug bolts tightened because I don't like my local Chevy dealer. Am I being unreasonable in my request? It seems to me that going to all that trouble of sending (exporting/importing etc.) the rifle to make a simple repair of tightening a barrel is silly or am I wrong?

465H&H

I think at this point you can either seit down and re-fireform all that brass, (it isn't "ruined" unless you have a screaming case of obsessive-compulsive disorder) and see if the rifle shoots.

If it does shoot relax and don't worry about it

Getting too wrapped up in anger and frustration
serves nothing except making your cardiologist
happier when you generate the heart attack that will buy HIM a new vacation house....

AllanD

Allen, I do not suffer from an obsessive compolsive dissorder different to any other reloader but I have fireformed around 450 of 500 brand new Lapua cases in the rifle which, as you point out, "only" need re-forming. That, I hope you can appreciate is not only expensive but also very inconvenient and frustrating if I want fireformed brass that I can neck size between future loadings, which was my original intention.


In any event, I have tested the rifle again and using the same new Lapua brass, fully sized as I had done with all of the batch, same load and bullet it did not shoot to the .5MOA garantee. In fact it did not shoot to 1MOA, best it managed was over 1.5MOA.
I will try shooting it some more, but I am not happy, I do not want this rifle anymore and I want to speak to HS about it. I intend on calling them yet again and asking to speak to a senior/owner as of now since I think this has gone far enough and would like a solution. I intend directing them to these threads so they can see follow the entire story as it unfolded.
I would like to think that I could get my money back but I cannot foree it, especially since they did not make the sale, and there is 1; the distributer and 2; the retailer who have put their cut on top of the deal meaning that I paid a lot more than they got for it but I will ask what they are prepared to do to make me happy.

Standby for more updates.

Well, with the barrel "tight" in the receiver the vibrational character of the barrel is different, so it's going to take a
complete load development to find something it's happy with.


Hey... a 7.62x51(308Win) barrel has an expected lifespan of 5000-8000 rounds, so while your experience is frustrating
I think you are overreacting.

Also have you verified that the action screws are tightened the same way?

I use a torque wrench on my action screws to ensure consistant tension. tighten them "snug" with a screwdriver
(with an appropriate allen bit as my action screws have a recessed hex drive) then tighten them in stages.
Front first, rear second, 20in/lb, 40in/lb and final torque to 60in/lb

AllanD

Allen I don't think I am overreacting considering I went out to buy a custom grade rifle for double what else is on the market that comes with a .5MOA garantee which ended up putting me out of shooting it for the better part of two years due to manufacture issues in the stock, trigger and barrel.
Todd from HS said he would address all of these and never did. I was very, very clear when I said to him that I would ont be satisfied unless the rifle went back to the HS plant for inspection. That didn't happen. What did happen was exactly what I told him I dreaded might.
I never got the new trigger he promised and the (internal) stock finish, although inconsequential is a rough as guts.
The brass question is no small matter.
I purchased 500 pieces of Lapua brass and many, many bullets. The time as well as money invested in the load development and materials is not a small amount.

I have yet to contact HS to see if I can speak with a senior or director there since it's hard with the time difference here and my own time constraints.

Today I should be in touch and will post the results of our conversation and see what they are prepared to do to make me a satisfied customer.

I spoke to a certain Tom at HS Precision again after testing the rifle and he seemed very concerned and said he would speak to Bignami to find out what happened.
He spoke of getting the rifle back (unfortunately via Bignami) to their facility for evaluation of the problem and eventual resolution.

I have also finally been contacted via e-mail so I have an easier method of corresponding with them.
The email I got was from Todd, the man I dealt with from the beginning and I have written a lengthy response entailing what I feel and what I would like.
He also mentioned he was disturbed I didn’t call him about the rifle once it came back, which I did, and we spoke about it at length.

Here is the letter I wrote them;

Hi Todd,
I have recieved your e-mail. I would like to hear what Bignami has to say about the rifle never being sent to you.
I find it disturbing that you do not recall our phone conversation. I called you immediately after receiving the rifle back from Bignami and explained to you that it had not in fact come back to HS. I also explained that via the repair receipt that I was able to speak to the smith who carried out the reparation and that he had only screwed the barrel back in, without checking the threads, headspacing or testing the rifle. You suggested I try it out and hope that it might shoot well once again.
I called back after testing the rifle. Now that the rifle doesn’t hold your .5MOA guarantee, while you may remember that previous to the incident it shot much better than .5MOA with a test target of .178MOA and my best being .25MOA.
After speaking to Tom he suggested I try it once again with the Federal Gold Medal Match 168gn ammunition but since I have now dismantled the scope and mounts that may take more time again, time I am not willing to waste.

As you know well I am not happy at all about this situation.
I purchased this rifle around October of 2004.
I started shooting it in April of 2005 when I got the rings, bases and scope.
It was around August 2004 that the barrel came loose.
I got it back around April 2006.
I got 4 months of shooting out the rifle in two years.
This is not reasonable.

In this time I have made numerous phone calls, sent e-mails, (never answered because I was always told “that e-mail isn’t workingâ€) sent faxes (told the fax form the site doesn’t work) and for all this had absolutely no satisfaction.

Honestly I do not have much faith that Bignami will send the rifle back, if they are prepared to simply replace the rifle that would suffice in solving the problem for me, leaving the problem to them to deal with considering that they were the cause of all this aggro and the two companies (HS & Bignami) can work who went wrong.

Even in the event that they do agree to take the rifle in and send it to you, going on experience I know I will not see the rifle for many months or possiblly a year taking into account the export/import/export/import procedures as well as the Italian testing bank on it’s re-entry not to mention repair times and dead time in transit and processing.

From the very beginning, from when the rifle arrived to me I have kept a sort of diary on various internet forums. I have been very fair and objective giving praise where due and criticism where deserved.
I think you should have a look for yourself, there are many thousands of views and replies, around 5000 last time I counted. Not to mention that my signature line contains the links to each thread with the phrase “one very DISSATISFIED customer of HS PRECISION†this means that it appears in each and every post and reply I have ever posted, also prior to changing the signature line and in unrelated threads. This in turn means that the number of people who have seen this story unfold is many, many thousands.
Many of them are understandably negative toward HS and many people in the market for firearms stated they would not be buying form HS in light of what they have seen happen.
This record of all that has occurred can work to you favour.
It is also a good record of each of our phone conversations, which you may have forgotten over time. I supply you with the links so you can check it out of yourself and refresh your memory and see what people are saying about HS Precision quality control and customer service.
HS Precision or Bignami are in the position to make good on all of this and I will dutifully post all positive and negative results there.
Please read all of the links carefully, you owe it to me to at least take the time to read everything considering how much time and money I have wasted on this matter.

Good day to you,

Attilio Marra.

1st range session-
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat...earch=true#Post45057


Range session –
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat...earch=true#Post45192

1st quality control issue –
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat...earch=true#Post45112

read the last post of the page - http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat...2&page=&fpart=3&vc=1

http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat...2&page=&fpart=4&vc=1

quality control thread -
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat...page=&fpart=all&vc=1

Quality control revisited -
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat...arch=true#Post120830

quality control rant -
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat...page=&fpart=all&vc=1

quality control rant and history -
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=953101145#953101145

quality control rant and history -
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat...226&page=0&fpart=all