I am going to buy a Marlin guide gun and was originally going to purchase it in .45-70. However, I now have another choice with the .450 Marlin. As I handload all of my ammo, it seems to me that both of these rounds could be loaded to similar power levels. However, the .450 is based on a modern rimless case. I would like to hear your opinions on which to purchase. The gun will be used for timber hunting of bear, Elk, Boar, etc. Thanks!

Also, any thoughts on the strength of the Marlin when compared to the Ruger no. 1? Can I load the Marlin to the same levels as the Ruger?

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"it is up to God to judge these terrorists; it is up to us to arrange their meeting" Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf

[This message has been edited by Shark Bait (edited 02-05-2002).]

Shark Bait,

The difference is thin, a little bit more velocity for .450 Marlin with higher working pressure.

45-70 a 400 gr bullet with 50gr Varget at 1718 fps

450 Marlin a 400 gr bullet with 57gr Varget at 1910 fps

According to my gun dealer, accuracy with .450 Marlin is better than .45-70.

.450 Marlin is smth between .45-70 and .458 Mag (but closer with .45-70).

.450 Marlin case are made by Honardy, you can also purchase factory ammo in .450 Marlin (Honardy). Reloading dies in .450 Marlin are made by Lyman.

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BER007
Keep the faith in any circumstances
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BBER007@HOTMAIL.COM

Buy the 45-70 if you might wish to purchase any new factory ammunition in the future, even though factory 45-70 ammunition is pretty anemic. That .450 Marlin ammunition could be pretty hard to come by, especially in a few years when they quit making rifles in that caliber.
With regard to handloading, there is a huge amount of information about reloading the 45-70 but information on the .450 Marlin could be hard to come by, particularly if you ever wish to try out some new powder that has just appeared on the market.
According to the Speer reloading manual the lever action cannot be loaded nearly as hot as a Ruger #1. The lever action loading seems to be about half way between the 45-70 factory loading and the .458 Win. Magnum loading. The Ruger #1 can be loaded to nearly match the .458 Win. Magnum.

Shark Bait,
If you plan to handload, I would recommend the 45/70 as it will hold slightly more powder than the .450 Marlin. Also, factory ammo is more readily available for the 45/70 in low, medium and supercharged versions. The reloading manuals generally offer separate recipes for the Marlins and the #1 as the Marlins cannot take the higher pressures that work in the #1.

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Phil- Life Member NRA & SCI

In my humble opinion, get the 45-70 if you reload. I have a Ruger #1 in 45-70 and I can load it from plinkers that my wife don't mind shooting to loads I have to grit my teeth to shoot. A 350 gr. bullet at 1900fps WILL get the job done, trust me. Availability of ammo, reloading material, brass etc is my reason for staying with my 45-70 and not jumping to the 450 marlin.
Good luck and good shooting

The sole reason for the introduction of the .450 was to equal the performance of the latest generation of .45-70 loads, such as from Garrett and Buffalo Bore, in a SAAMI-compliant load.

SAAMI pressure specs for the .45-70 are low; companies signatory to SAAMI can't load hot to take advantage of stronger, modern rifles, the way non-signatories like Garrett and BB can. The only way for a signatory like Hornady/Marlin to compete was to design a new cartridge with a higher pressure spec (essentially the same pressure as a hot .45-70). It's purely a legal distinction.

It's tempting to say the .450 is good for the non-handloader who wants more performance than typical factory .45-70, but even that's not true, since the non-handloader can easily buy Garrett, BB, etc.

I agree that the .450 probably won't last. Go with .45-70.

I definitely agree with others to buy the 45/70. Why marlin ever produced the .450 is beyond me, the new introduction should have been a .50 Alaskan. I have my 400 gr load running at 1850 fps without any pressure signs and my manual states I could push it to 1980 from my 22 inch barrell. Brass is cheaper as mentioned and it also has a little history associated with it (re. Americas first service cartridge). It would not suprise me at all to see the .450 fall by the wayside. Get the 45/70 and you will definitely be happy.

Regards PC

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I also suggest the 45/70.Ammo is easier to find and will be around for a long time and the 450 may not be.Brass for the 45/70 is cheaper and easier to find and also has a slightly greater capacity.More load data available for the 45/70.The Marlin 45/70 rifles are strong but can not handle the same pressure as the Ruger #1 can.

Thanks to all of you for the feedback. The concensus so far points to the .45-70 and you all bring up some very good points. I think I have just about decided on the .45-70. I was leaning that way anyway.

So that then leaves one other question. The Ruger No.1 or the Marlin Guide gun?

Shark Bait,

Too bad you have made up your mind already. I already have a .45-70 Marlin, but if I was to buy new, it would be the .450 Marlin.

Souping up the velocity in a .45-70 is akin to hot loading the .45 Colt.... it can be done for a specific gun, but why bother when modern rounds DESIGNED for higher pressures are available?

Even if the .450 Marlin were discontinued tommorow (which it won't as the guns are selling), brass and dies will be availble for a long time to come. If you buy 100 caes now, that should last you many years. Buy 200 and have a lifetime supply.

Since you are a handloader, you can load whatever levels you like... soft-ball or full-power, and not have to worry that if that ammo winds up in the "wrong" gun. The .45-70 is actually better for the non-handloader.

The .450 Marlin case is stronger and heavier than the .45-70 case. The rimless design will also feed smoother.

There are lots of folks in the shooting world who will never accept change. I'd leave the 130 year old blackpower relics to history, since a modern round is now available.

I love the Marlin. Do you really want to hunt wild boar and bear with a single shot?

I dont know why fellers are saying the .450 Marlin wont last. Marlin is selling their levergun in it like hotcakes, Browing is chambering their single/shot in it,and now Magnum Research is chambering their BFR in it.

Kinda sounds like it here to stay to me.Tho I dont buy factory loads and I couldnt tell you what the current trends are.......10

Instead of a Marlin or a Ruger might I suggest a Browning Highwall. They have much better fit and finish as well as the 28 inch barrel. Only draw back is the price. Just my .02.

[This message has been edited by pigman (edited 02-06-2002).]

I guess it all comes down to whether you think you'll be in the position that requires a few follow up shots...personally, I'd take the guide gun over the ruger any day, just because I have the confidence knowing that if the first shot doesn't do the trick, I've got a couple more in the magazine to finish what I've started. In a perfect world, where one shot is all you will ever need, and you never need to worry about flubbing it up, the ruger would be ideal...but in the field with all the different variables, it's just better to have a 'contingancy'[sp] plan (i.e. 3 more rounds in your gun )

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God Bless and Shoot Straight

Gotta agree with the majority...go with the guide gun. There will always be 45-70's, and you dont want to come up short on a second shot either.

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WyomingSwede

I don't see how a thicker case will permit the Marlin action to be loaded past its design point of ~43,000 psi. A sliver a brass is not going to contain 60,000 psi. If the .450 Marlin is loaded (with less powder) to a higher velocity then I am sure the .45-70 can duplicate it. Most loading data is overly cautious. Speer limits its data to 28,000 cup and even that hits 1870 fps with a 400 gr bullet.

I think Fat Bastard is on the money. the .450 Marlin is a gimmick work around for Marlin (which is excessively safety conscious) and Hornady (which doen't want the liability of producing .45-70 loads that will definitely blow up some guns). A smarter move would have been the longer .457 Magnum cartridge developed by that outfit in Anchorage. I doubt if the .450 Marlin will go away anytime soon given how little attention the .444 has gotten over the last 40 years, but that doesn't mean its a better proposition.

I bought a Guide Gun last fall and I love it. It's chambered for the aneomic, useless, old, inaccurate, lumpy old .45-70. I am putting in for limited entry grizzly for this spring and plan on using 300gr. Partitions at about 2000fps. I guess I'm not very bright as I just purchased a new Sako Finnlight in another useless, old cartridge: .30/06 Sprg. The old addage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies very well, in my redneck opinion.

45-70 all the way, & as for accuracy my bud shoots consistant 3/4" - 1" groups out of his guide with peep of a bench how doe's your .450 do??

[This message has been edited by sxr6 (edited 02-06-2002).]

I want to thank you all for your replies. You have given me ample information to make my decision really hard. :-) Actually I was almost set on the Ruger no. 1 but am now leaning towards the Marlin in .45-70. I will let y'all know what I decided on. Should be making a decision in the next couple of weeks. Thanks Again!

If you want t go with a #1, there are definitely better calibers to buy it in. Why go to all the expense of buying one and then limiting it by going with a 45-70. If were interested in buying a Ruger, it would definitely NOT be a 45-70.
If you want a 45-70, you are not looking for the flattest trajectory or the strongest brass, so the lever action makes great sense within the constraints that the rifle puts upon you.
As an aside, I watched a group of guys taking turns punishing themselves by shooting a 45-70 guide gun from the bench with some hot hand loads. None of them wanted to take more than a couple of shots from the bench, and one of the guys got his nose broke when the scope nailed him. With the heavy bullets loaded to max. that is one nasty kicker. Of course why there was a scope mounted on the rifle in the first place was a mystery to me. At the range that thing is used for a scope is normally a waste of good money.

In 45/70 the rifle to get is the 86 Winchester extra lightweight. It has a stronger action and will accomodate cartridges out to 2.88 inches, a real plus for a handloader trying to wring every bit of power from the 45/70 cartridge. You will have to have a smith relieve the area around the loading gate to get the longer cartridges to feed into the magazine and you will need to have the chamber throated to chamber bullets loaded longer than 2.55 inches. Doing this should allow you to equal the 45/90 in a 45/70 with heavy bullets (400 to 500 grains).

The extra lite weighs 7.5 pounds and has a 22 inch barrel in a package just as handy as a 94 winchester.

Just my humble opinion

though I agree with you all on the limited life of the .450 marlin cartrige I think that this gun load combo can not be beat. The marlin guide gun is light, easy to shoot, and realy quick handling. I love mine. I load it with 400gr. speers to about slightly less than 2,100fps. i think either way you will be satisfied.

In 45/70 the rifle to get is the 86 Winchester extra lightweight. It has a stronger action and will accomodate cartridges out to 2.88 inches, a real plus for a handloader trying to wring every bit of power from the 45/70 cartridge. You will have to have a smith relieve the area around the loading gate to get the longer cartridges to feed into the magazine and you will need to have the chamber throated to chamber bullets loaded longer than 2.55 inches. Doing this should allow you to equal the 45/90 in a 45/70 with heavy bullets (400 to 500 grains).

The extra lite weighs 7.5 pounds and has a 22 inch barrel in a package just as handy as a 94 winchester.

Just my humble opinion

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The true measure of a hunters skill is not the size of the trophy but rather the length of the shot with the greater measure of skill being the shorter shot...and the greatest measure of skill being the shorter hike back to camp---Jeff Cooper

I wanted you all to know that I ended up buying the Marlin 1895 Stainless Guide Gun in .45-70. I am looking forward to getting out to the range (as soon as the temperatures go up a little. Freezing today!) In the meantime can anyone recommend handloads for this gun using the various 300 and 405 grain bullets available? Thanks for all the advice!

SharkBait, Good choice! Try the Ashley Outdoors peep set-up; it works great in the 45/70. Can't offer much in the way of loads as I haven't been able to do much myself because of old man winter. I bought some H4198 to push the Nosler Partitions/300gr. The factory loads are pretty useless. The Hornady 350gr.FP might also be a good choice.

I shoots Hornady 300 gr hollow points at 1880 fps using 45 grs of reloader 7 out of a Browning High wall. The guide gun may not get the same speed due to the much shorter barrel.I wouldn't push the hollow point too much faster. If you want higher speeds use the 350 gr flat nose with 51 grains of reloader seven. Make sure you reduce be 10% and work up.