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I am heading to BC with a couple of other AR members for spring bear. A friend of mine is coming along as well. We are taking our 30.06s. Maybe I'm a little out of line, but he's taken one bear over a bait with a 220 Corelokt bullet, which, BTW, killed the bear just fine. However, it did not pass through. (He's killed more than one bear total, I'm referring to the combo, .06 and 220 Corelokt). Our hunt in BC will be spot and stalk, and there are possible shots over 200 yards. I'm very comfortable with my 30.06 out to 300 yards. But my friend has not shot his 220 over 100 yards and if I recall, it didn't group great, but acceptable to that distance. Should I try to talk him into sighting in with a good 180 bullet? I'll likely be taking 180 Partitions or Barnes bullets. I'm trying to picture the outcome of a bear hit with a well placed 180 partition v. a 220 corlokt bullet at 250 yards. My experience with either personal accounts or witness, is the 220 hits very hard but rarely passes through. Even his 8 yard shot on a 250 black bear over bait didn't pass through on a 100% soft tissue shot, where my Swift Sciroccos blew through and made a gaping hole in the ground. Chances are we won't have any shots over 100 but hey, this is hunting, and right now, my crystal ball is blurry. I'll try to answer some questions that might arise: 1) His rifle shoots the 220 Corelokt bullets with about a 2.5-3" group at 100 yards. 2) To my knowledge, he's never shot that combo beyond 100 yards so he has no idea how well it will do beyond that. 3) We plan on shooting at the range for a couple of weeks before we go. 4) He is not a handloader/reloader and does NOT shoot like a lot of us here do. He's the type that shoots quite a bit right before a hunt, and this method has served him well. 5) He has killed a caribou at 396 yards, so he can shoot inside of this distance with some degree of comfort. It's really JMO, but I think he'd be better served with a faster, flatter 180 bullet. Thoughts? Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | ||
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I have killed two with 100 gr. .243! A 220 is like brown bear medicine. Black bear are not that hard to kill. Try and talk him into a 165 spbt. plenty big. | |||
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I know his current combo will kill a bear, easily. Would you use your 243 combo on BB at 250 yards? Heck, I may be concerned over nothing. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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Not a .243, 100 grainer, but a 30-06 with a 165, with out worry. | |||
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Well, I've already got a great load with 168 TSX and H4350....I just don't have enough to take, and cannot currently get to my load bench. (don't ask). Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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I bet that is a good load. To bad you can't get some loaded for him. | |||
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I would try and talk him into switching. Granted, 2.5-3" accuracy will do OK, but I have revolvers that shoot as well -- and better -- at 100 yards, and that's the max distance I'd consider their use on game. For a black bear, any good 165 grainer from an '06 will suffice. I don't shoot factory fodder and thus don't keep up with current offerings, but if there's an Accubond available, that would be my recommendation. Of course, the Partition is a proven performer. And if the truth be known, a 165 grain cup and core bullet from a 30-06 will suffice as the black bear is far from armor-plated. I hope your friend listens to you and changes his load. I've never been fond of that 220 grain offering, and it you clock it, you'll probably find it is loping along at speeds well under what the box claims. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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In my personal experience talking somebody out of their preferred load is damn near impossible. I have one friend who insists that 165 gr grand slams are the be all end all of 30-06 loads no matter what your shooting. He thinks that anything else simply won't get the job done. He makes fun of me using 180 TBBC's just because they aren't his choice. I have another friend that insists that 30-06 core-lokts are the ultimate bullet in existence and anything less will end in failure. I have proven him wrong on several occasions with myn father's 270 wby and my own 270 wsm, but he insists. The only thing that will change his mind is a bad result from his own load. That is just my own opinion though. "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." -- General George S. Patton | |||
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I would say let him use what he got, the bear was dead right. So the bullet did it's job. You don't have to have a complete pass through for the bullet to work correctly. If he has kill a Caribou out to 396 yards, I would say he can shoot a bear at 100 yards. Why try to push your load on him? If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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What if he misses or wounds a bear with the 180 you persuaded him to use somewhat against his will? At the moment it's absolutely down to him - there is the possibility of him attaching some blame to you if he changes on your near insistance. | |||
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Your sweating the small stuff.
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I'd say leave him alone. That's assuming he's shot his rifle with the 220's at 250 yards. Maybe he's planning on getting closer. You know that is an idea. | |||
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I would use a 180 grainer. That said, I would leave him alone. He is confident in what he is using and it is his hunt. If you pressure him into something else and it turns out bad, it will be your fault! | |||
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I only suggested the load. I do not consider myself pushy. I just give some info and let the person make their own decision. Well, he's not the type that would be persuaded against his will. I only suggested it to him. I see your point. However, if anyone misses, it's their own fault. If I suggest a load, and he agrees it is a better choice, practices, shoots it well, and still misses, I do not see that to be anyone's fault but the shooter. OTOH, what if he takes is 220 load and misses or wounds a bear? Should I say, "I told you so?" That's not in my nature (well, except for when my kids do stupid stuff).  I sent him an email suggesting he consider a 180 load and here's what he wrote in response:
So, I guess he wants to try the 180. The good part is, he's never afraid to buy a bunch of ammo to see what works best. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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I never pressure anyone into anything. Just give them info and let them decide. If he misses, and I'm standing there and he looks at me and says, "it's your fault I missed," I'll say, "yeah, like it's my fault you missed a black bear in New Brunswick at 12 yards with your shotgun you used to prove a point." It's all in fun...we'll have a great time. This does bring up some interesting points though that I've never considered, so I'll have to chew on it. So, let me get this straight: If someone suggests a load for a specific hunt, and the "suggestee" decides to try that load, practices for weeks, shoots it well, shoots to 300 yards from multiple positions, and things appear to be going quite well, THEN, they go on a hunt and miss their target at any distance from 0-300 yards, it's the fault of the person that suggested the load? Well, I guess my brother hates me by now after years of suggesting loads and working them up for him, watching him shoot those loads well, and he's missed quite a few times. Interesting concept.  I'm only making a suggestion from experience, not twisting any arms.Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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Get him closer and let him shoot what he is comfortable with. The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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Ok, update: he has 3 30.06 rifles and one of them shoots that 220 bullet to his satisfaction. His newest rifle is his dedicated "180" rifle. I did not know that before I posted. He had mentioned the 220 bullet when we booked the hunt but I did not realize he's changed his mind and wants to take the rifle that he's not killed anything with. Looks like he planned on the 180 from the get go with his newest rifle. SORRY!!! But thanks for the feedback! Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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Hello Doc: I don't know where you got the idea that you probably won't be shooting over 100 yds but get rid of it. Bears are low to the ground and unless it is windy they are not that easy to stalk up to and you will probably be hunting cut blocks as well as grassy side hills so prepare for accurate shooting with good bullets. Regards Dan | |||
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I got it from one of the AR members who's been going to the same outfitter for ~ 20 years. He stated to me that he does not recollect having any shot over 100 yards. I'll be prepared for shots up to 250, maybe 300. But I would very much like bow range!  Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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What!!?? Stock an animal?? In this day and age of the 'Blasto Magnum reach out and shoot a hole in the Moon' wonder guns?? NEVER!!! That would be considered hunting... Obviously you haven't been reading enough gun rags...  "Isn't it pretty to think so." | |||
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i didn't make it through all the replies, but the only thing i would say is perhaps talk him into trying a 180-grain bullet in a good factory load (maybe even his beloved corelokts, which are fine bullets) and have his see how he likes them maybe they will recoil less, maybe they will group better. maybe he will decide that he still likes his original load and go with that, but at least he tried. if nothing else, tell him you will quit pesteringhim if he just TRIES it, then, let him decide from there. if it's a better way, then he'll use it. | |||
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I think that's about like trying to talk a man out of his religion. I would let him use what he has experience with and faith in, without trying to second-guess him. Now, if you can find some way to get him to ask you for your opinion......bam! Tim 0351 USMC | |||
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Oh, I'm not second guessing him, but I have seen him shoot! (kinda scary considering he's a cop).  He did in fact ask what I would be taking, so in a round about way, he could have been asking my opinion. Plus, as far as his faith goes, well, it is built upon one bear. Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns | |||
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Trying to convince anyone they are wrong about ANYTHING causes trouble on these forums. trying to talk to people about their choice of cast bullet alloy, bullet shape etc can get three people calling you names. trying to call someone on "bullshit" when they are waxing rhapsodical about their pet bore diameter will get them screaming insults. All for simply trying to discuss something logically. And discuccing somrthing logically only proves that the vast majority of people inclined to discussions are anything but logical. trying too hard to talk your friend into a different bullet weight might lose you a friend. If he misses with your recommended loading he'll blame you AD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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your wasting your time. let him be. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting How to convince a friend to change bullet in his .06
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