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Is there any science behind the phenomenon that some cartridges kill better than they would appear to on paper? I have personel experience with the 257 Roberts and 7x57. On paper they are nothing special but get them in the field and game pretty much walks up to the stand and surrenders. I have heard the 6.5 Swede is he same way. One guy told me it had to do with the bullet staying in the animal longer therefore creating more hemorhaging??? You guys have any thoughts? Perry | ||
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I think it has to do with the fact that their velocity range makes all types of bullets perform well, coupled with light recoil for good bullet placement. I would put the .30-06, .338 Mag and .375 H&H with them as well. It's probably no coincidence that all of these commonly run in the 2500-2700 fps range with bullets with good SD. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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What you are referring to as "killing capacity" sounds like "energy" and that is purely a calculation out of a high school physics book that is easy to use and appears to have some relation to cartridge effectiveness. However, it ain't the whole story as thoughtful hunters have known for generations. My take on the whole thing centers around sectional density. These "lighter" calibers are best loaded with long-for-caliber bullets that plow clear through the animal and out the other side. The exit wound is larger than the entrance wound for more than one reason and has more than one effect. This is seldom discussed because there is so much delight in perfect mushroom shapes on recovered bullets. Personally, I would rather not recover the bullet. I want that thing to send bone fragments, bullet fragments and any other sort of shrapnel into every vital organ in the animal's body shutting them all down at once. Then I want the spalling effect on the far side to do further damage and to leave a hole that bleeds very freely. This kind of bullet performance is best achieved with a sectional density over .300 at velocities between 2400 and 2700 fps at the muzzle. As you can see, it includes those great old cartridges mentioned in the previous post and does not include the much lauded belted and unbelted magnums that have been so intensely hyped over the last 75 years. Sarge Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle . . . for one hundred years! | |||
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I guess killing beyond ballistic capabilties start with a well place 22lr rifle bullet. Lots of stuff can be and has been killed with a well place 40 gr bullet at 1100 to 1200 fps is anything more nessary. Well depends on what you want to do with your rifle. If you want to increase the range increase your area you can place the shot ect. Then one has to move to other calibers and bullet weights. There is lots of area of overlap in most cailbers and rifles where any of them well do the job needed 98% of the time. It is when someone tend to push it on one end or the other where one runs into trouble useing too small or to large of caliber or wrong of bullet for the job at hand. So pick the caliber and bullet you want to use and live or die from the results its your choice. | |||
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I do not know of any "science" with these particular cartridges that make them more lethal. I think the magic comes in having rifles that are handy, low recoiling, with low muzzle blast. These attributes will not impress the loud mouths at the range, but they will help a guy become a good marksmen. And lets face it a 140 gr slug from a 7X57 doesn't kill any better than a 140 gr slug from a 7mm RUM, but with the lower recoil and muzzle blast itcouldmake the hunter better able to place his shot with more accuracy, thus making cleaner one shot kills. | |||
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My idea is that with a standard (non premium) bullet, the 7x57 will kill larger game better than a 7RUM that will blow the bullet to pieces with velocity. The '06 and 7x57 will perform well with pretty much any conventional bullet with good SD. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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Mr JStevens is perfectly on the bar. The idea of all bullets working well, this means from sierra's to kodiak's, is perfectly correct. Alot of the ultra-boomers so popular nowadays push bullets past their ideal expansion rate. When you shoot a lets say...nosler accubond @ 3400fps all the expansion occurs in the first 3" of an animal, often with the jacket peeling back near the shank or seperating into tiny pieces. If the same bullet is pushed @ 2800fps the majority of the expansion process takes place over 8-10" meaning the serious destruction of tissue is in vital organs, not muscle and skin. Does this mean a 30-06 is more reliable than a 30-378? to 200yds maybe, but the 30-378 will probably be king after that. There is the science. In reality the majority of folks place bullets on game from a .280 Rem than a 7mm Ultra Mag. You can use any bullet you like on the guts, they're still likely to run, and die tomorrow. This is why guides and professional hunters love to see 30-06's, .270's, 308's and such enter camp. No bullet funny business. And the guy probably shot the rifle alot more than the guy with the .382 wondermasher. Then again, I really want a Lazzeroni.....hmmmmmmmmm. | |||
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6.5x55 and 140 270 Win & 150 7x57/280 & 160 30-06 & 180 338-06 & 210 358 win & 225 All of these cartridges have one thing in common an SD at or above .26 and typical velocities of 2500-2750. The above seems to draw somethings in common but not all necessarily related. No hyper velocity hence no unusual bullet performance or extreme recoil, shooters who are often very practical and therefore do not take extremely long shots...how many times do you hear somebody say that my 7x57 slammed an elk at 275 yds, not often. They do say I salked to within a 150 yds and had a decent quartering shot and (a reasonable SD bullet with resoanble velocity) the bullet took both lungs out and the elk went 40 yds and piled up. These practical shooters often know "that" rifle very well. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I don't think there is any magic at all with the milder rounds, nor do I think they kill better than anything else. What I do believe is that there are so many high velocity/energy rounds out there that they make the milder rounds look unimpressive on paper and somewhere along the line it makes people think they need this energy to actually kill game. However, the milder rounds simply have more than enough oomph to be devastating on appropriate game in most hunting situations. When you use them and they drop stuff quickly (like you would expect from your .300 Magnum!), you somehow think they are magic and kill all beyond expectations, when it's your expectation that is wrong to begin with. -Lou | |||
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The good old 35 Remington seems to get the job done far better than it's ballistics would dictate. It just seems to do a great job on bear and moose in the thick stuff. Hawkeye47 | |||
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Lou270, I think your on to something there with the expectation being in our heads. I gotta tip my hat to the marketers in the firearms industry. Perry | |||
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Inside of 100 to perhaps 125 yards, there is no game on the continent that can't be neatly harvested with the .44 magnum and a 320 grain hard cast, LBT-style (WFN) bullet from Cast Performance. Using a top-end charge of H-110, that particular bullet leaves the barrel of my 9.5" Ruger SRH at 1400 fps, and the ballistics pale in comparison to even moderately-powerful rifle rounds. Yet it kills quickly and effectively and has filled the family freezer on countless occasions. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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I think Lou's got it right. We are conditioned by advertisement to believe something is better than what was previously offered. Time proves it isn't always true. I love the Roberts, and have had the type of kills with it that seem to be "out of proportion" to it's ballistics. It works well and as gets said often "how much more deader does it need to be?" Nate | |||
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I don't think the magnum boys are going to like the content of this thread one bit!!!!!  | |||
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You mean pointing out the fact that the plain vanilla chamberings just plain work, and therfore hyper velocity is overrated?  | |||
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Hawkeye, you should try the Buffalo Bore 220 gr 35 Rem. They did get a complaint though .One hunter took a buck with it then the bullet went on to kill two does standing behind the buck !!! On paper the 35 and 30-30 are the same but all that have hunted with both say the 35 is much better -bigger hole I guess. | |||
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But that's the whole point.  Sarge Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle . . . for one hundred years! | |||
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I took my longest deer shot with a 243 at 400 through the lungs and he walked about 20 feet and dropped. Yes, well placed shots through the lungs will kill most anything. Currently my North American anthing gun is a 7mm08 with 140 TSX's but if I were hunting a grizzly I would more than likely choose something to make a bigger hole like a 338 or 375. You are right Sarge, the big gun shooters will more than likely no like this thread. | |||
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HAVE KILLED hundreds of deer both hunting and as a police officer. My share of other big game. Have seen probably a thousand people shot in my ghetto years. Can tell you about wound ballistics on people and it comes down to a simple phrase I formulated. IF it begins with .4 they are probably on the floor. Had a friend shoot a guy 5 times with a .357mag at 20 feet all center chest shots, the guy walked back into the house, sat down. While the SWAT was being called the guy decided he better seek medical help and 15 minutes later he gave himself up. Had another guy get shot 5 times with a 9mm hardball and I had to forcibley restrain him to keep him from going out after the guy who shot him. I cannot remember ANY person ever shot with anything beginning with .4 that was upright and mobile when I got to them. They certainly didn't all die, just that all the air was gone from the balloon. The point is large slow moving bullets seem to be better than the lightning bolt lightweights. be it game or people. Large heavy for caliber bullets seem to work better. That is all I shoot. I can't remember the last time I hunted with a bullet light than 210grs(.340wby) .358Win (250g) .375H&H (270gr) 45-70(520gr) NEVER fear the night. Fear what hunts IN the night. | |||
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I shoot a 6.5X55 almsot exclusively in a 700 classic and it puts the deer down just as quick as my 06 did with less blood shot meat. With no recoil or report its easy to put that bullet where it counts. My swede is just accurate as hell and this is why its so effective. Plus the fact that even a 120gr .264" caliber bullet has a sectional density thats similar to a 165gr .308" bullet. This phenomenon is proven in the field- The scandinavians have very detailed records of game that is killed. How many shots used, how far the animal ran, etc etc The two most popular cartridges for moose hunting over there are the 30-06 and the 6.5X55 and believe it or not, the swede puts em down quicker with less shots! Has to do with shot placement and good sectional density, with lower velocity's that do not destroy bullets. | |||
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True. As much as I would like to have a blood trail (through and through), truth be known I'd rather have a bullet NOT exit thereby depositing A L L of its energy in the animal. This I believe is also the same argument that the "not so high velocity" proponents allude to. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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That would depend on which "not so high" school you belong to. The African version wants holes on both sides and I agree. It isn't just that you get a better blood trail for the trackers, both 2-legged and 4-legged, but the neurological shock (not to be confused with non-existant hydrostatic shock) of the exiting bullet more than makes up for "energy" left inside. Besides, a bullet that ends up just under the skin on a perfect broadside shot won't even reach the vitals if you're shooting from a rear quarter. No, give me penetration, penetration, penetration! Sarge Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle . . . for one hundred years! | |||
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I like to see pieces of lung out the other side also. Nothing on the planet goes far after that. | |||
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Then use L E S S powder, or lighter bullets or nything that produces a load with less power (energy or momentum, your choice). The "depositing all it's energy" argument is just about the worst job of critical thinking one can see on the web. It that's what you want, give it less to start with. Brent When there is lead in the air, there is hope in my heart -- MWH ~1996 | |||
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No boys. I'm talking about using a 140gr 7mm bullet from a 7mmRem compared to the excess of velocity of exact same bullet in a 7 STW...not needed. Also the 9mm vs 45 ACP argument. 9mm go through the body, but a 45 will knock em down. Neurologic shock without severing the spinal cord (i.e. direct injury) can only come from "non existent" hydrostatic shock. That's why i shoot a high lung shot myself. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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Then you are comparing apples and oranges. Compare the .45 ACP to the .45 Colt if you want to make a legit comparison. Brent When there is lead in the air, there is hope in my heart -- MWH ~1996 | |||
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 So couldn't the same be said for a 7-08 and a 280, or a 7x57 and a 280? I'm assuming you're talking about impact velocity right? If so woudln't the range at which 'excessive' velocity is a problem just extend for the incease in velocity? Personally haveing seen shot and personaly shooting a 'few' animals. I like the light for caliber bullets traveling at 3000fps+ from the muzzle for deer, and looooong heavy bullets for bigger game at moderate velocity. I doubt I'll ever buy another "magnum" for NA hunting, since 98% of the animals I've killed were inside 300 yards. IMO the 30-06 case capacity is the prefect platform for anything North American. My line up includes... a 270, 280, 30-06, 338-06, 35 Brown/Whelen. Just need a 25-06 and I think I'll call it good. LOL | |||
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I would rate a .45 caliber hard cast bullet starting at 1000 fps with a flat wide meplat as having the most killing power for the least input. I say this by observation and reason that it cuts a wide enough hole deep enough to let the blood out of almost anything. In second place I would place the .22 WMR. Join the NRA | |||
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Ivan is right, fast and light is OK for deer, .338-06 type cartridges for larger game. However I'd rather use the heavy for caliber for everything, this works better than the opposite. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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Then you are comparing apples and oranges. Compare the .45 ACP to the .45 Colt if you want to make a legit comparison. Brent[/QUOTE] Nope. High velocity vs big slow bullet. The biggest complaints from PO when changing from 45s to 9mm is that the shots would go through and the bad guys would keep shooting back, whereas a 45 would at least knock the bastards down. I like medium velocities myself, don't need more than 3000fps for big game. Excess velocities just not needed. I like magnums NOT to get bigger velocities in the same weight bullets (excess velocities), but rather to get bigger bullets going the same velocity. My 300 win shoots 180s at 3000fps (the same exact tragectory as my 130gr 270), my 340 Wby shoots 250s at a shade below 3000fps.....now the Rigby is a different story. I know how to shoot, and don't need extra velocity to counter an inablity to shoot- stretch out the "kill zone.". I know how to hold over and don't need flatter tragectory to compensate. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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Arrgh! Just because it's a .452" bullet does not mean the person hit will fall down, such crap! Now I prefer a 10mm or .44/.45 over the 9mm by a long margin. It isn't because a .45 knocks people over with any hit. It's because with slow bullets like 99.999% of all handguns to get velocity high you need really light bullets. Handgun bullets also have a very narrow velocity spread and distance at which they are most effective. Thusly momentum means more than energy. Momentum is heavy bullets at slower velocity. Since the shock wave created by a fast bullet doesn't have much chance to develop with a handgun the prudent choice is permanent wound over temporary thus a big bore pistol. With rifles and a larger velocity envelope to work with the discussion becomes more complex. As for killing beyond paper specs and expectations I expect my .257 Roberts to go pop, the shot to hit well and the deer to go flop. I also know I'll not be smacked silly by the rifle. I also expect to have to get closer than 500 yards where I won't take a shot anyway regardless of chambering. The small bores have shortcomings the big bores just as many but on the opposite side of center. Velocity has it's uses and it's detractions. | |||
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Remember guys: cartridges do not kill; bullets do. So, if a 7x57 firing 160 gr. ABC bullet @ 2675 fps kills like the Hammer of Thor, then a 7mm RUM loaded down to launch the same 160 gr. ABC bullet at 2675 fps will too kill like the Hammer of Thor. Like some of the other posters have already said, I think the smaller cartridges such as the 6.5x55 and the 7x57 are simply easier to hit with because they recoil less and are thus easier to shoot and so are easier to kill with. Also, think about this: When we hunt with the smaller, less powerful cartridges, could it be possible that we subconsciously are more careful with our shot placement? As an example, i tried my hand at bow hunting for a while, and though it's not my cup of tea, I found I saw much more game when carrying a bow simply because subconsciously, I knew I had to be really close when I shot, so I was more cautious. FWIW, I subscribe to the "get closer, shoot better" philosophy. Though I own 15+/- centerfire rifles, none have a magnum headstamp. 35W "Only accurate rifles are interesting"- Col. Townsend Whelen | |||
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