Bison and muzzleloaders

quote:
Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
For the many forum readers here with actual experience with bison, have any of you taken yours with a traditional muzzleloader? What caliber/projectile/velocity? I am thinking that a minimum of a .54 round ball and a very stiff charge of black would eventually prove fatal, but that larger calibers, and conicals, would be much more effective as these critters seem capable of packing a fair amount of lead, even when dispensed with a copper jacket from a modern magnum (and I don't mean an inline and a sabot). I have read accounts by Don Kettlekamp of taking bison with round balls, in addition to many accounts of hunting bison with classic BPCR rounds such as the .45-70, .45-100, .50-90 etc. If you were to hunt the shaggies with a muzzleloader, what would you consider an ideal combination? I suspect a Kodiak double in .58 or .72 with conicals would do nicely, but it is hard to get those slugs moving very fast.

A FAST twist .45 (like 1x18") loaded with paper patched 550 gr bullets. ie, a .45-100 Sharps loaded from the front.

That would be my choice anyway. Otherwise the biggest diameter, heaviest bullet. I think a .54 roundball would suffice, but many original Hawkins that killed many a buff, were .58-62 caliber. They all shot roundballs pretty much exclusively.

Brent

Posts: 2257 | Location: Where I've bought resident tags:MN, WI, IL, MI, KS, GA, AZ, IA | Registered: 30 January 2002

Ignored post by Brent posted

<Mr.16 gauge>

posted

I did this last year on a preserve with my .54 cal CVA St. Louis Hawken. I used a T/C maxiball behind 100 grains of FFg with a CCI cap to start the mix. My first shot was at 60 yards, on her left side, and after the smoke cleared, I thought I had missed because the cow was just standing there chewing her cud....she acted as if nothing happened. My second shot (at the same range) got a visible reaction....she humped up and started to exhale deeply, sending an huge stream of aerosol blood in the air. I reloaded, but by now the other Bison were milling around and it was difficult to get a clear shot. After a few minutes, she started to stagger, and managed to get a third round in on the right side. She took a couple of steps and collapsed. I thought it was over, but she got up again and managed to stumble over a small cliff....THEN she expired! I found that she had been hit by all three shots: All three were were I had aimed (the first two were an inch apart from each other), and one of the first two had passed completely through. Not much shock value, and basically I had to weight for her to bleed out. I always wanted to take a bison the old fashioned way, but after that, I think I might reconsider...or at least have a back up with a heavier rifle.

I'll try posting a pic:

[ 08-03-2002, 04:39: Message edited by: Canuck ]

Bill/Oregon

one of us

posted

Brent: No question that a heavy .45 slug whistling through a bison's boiler room will pile the critter up in a matter of minutes; but I am wondering what it takes to really clobber a bison with a BP rifle with other than a spine shot. By Mr. 16 Gauge's reply, it doesn't sound like a .54 Maxiball was terribly authoritative, although certainly fatal. I am beginning to think a Kodiak .72 with the 835-grain NEI conical (No. 732-835?) at 1200 fps would have a notable effect, though. Same with any of the "gauge" rifles in 12, 10 or eight bore.

Posts: 16699 | Location: Las Cruces, NM | Registered: 03 June 2000

Ignored post by Bill/Oregon posted

JohnTheGreek

One of Us

posted

Bill,

I'm afraid you can really kinda forget about putting a Bison down with any authority unless you hit him/her in the spine, brain or the base of the neck where the spine meets the skull (a favorite shot for some as it is quick, preserves the skull for hanging, and ideal shot placement can be judged by the eye and horn). I would think any well placed ball from anything .50 cal or better could accomplish this shot.
Shots into the boiler room will not end the affair quickly and I really look at them as insurance shots to be taken before attempting the spine or neck shot.

I have taken two bison in the last three years and plan on taking several more in my lifetime. One was a Plains Bison in South Dakota and the other was a Wood Bison in the Yukon Territory last February. Neither beast went quietly into that great dark night.

I hit my plains bison in that neck/skull area with shot #1 but missed the nervous system as my .45-70 flat nose broke up on the skull base. He went down long enough for us to walk within 10 feet or so and then got up and ran like hell across the prarie at which point we're all giving chase and I threw out a shot #2 that missed the vitals. Shot #3 hit the spine and he was down for good.

We stalked to within 30-40 feet of my Wood Bison on top of a snowy mountian in February and I placed two quick 400 grain bullets from a .416 Rem at 2400 fps into the boiler room. There was absolutely NO reaction from the animal at shot #1 and only the SLIGHTEST flinch at shot #2. As the animal then takes two steps toward some nasty thick brush and I'm yelling at my guide to "hold your fire", I raised the rifle a bit and placed a third shot into the shaggy's neck, hitting the spinal chord. Obviously the critter was down at this point and my guide, who has taken about 30 Wood Bison over the last five years, surprised me by saying that this was the FASTEST he had seen one fall! Four days and many sore back muscles later, we had all the meat, head, and hide back at the vehicle.

It really takes no great genius to know that a bigger animal requires a bigger projectile but aside from nervous sytem shots, increasing the projectile diameter will only allow the animal to bleed out a bit faster. You just aint gonna bowl these big boys over with even the largest sporting rounds. Hell, sometimes the first shot from some of the biggest sporting rounds even fails to inform them that they have, in fact, been shot! Remember, we are talking about the largest animal in the Western Hemisphere here.

Hope this helps,

JohnTheGreek

[ 08-02-2002, 22:59: Message edited by: JohnTheGreek ]

Posts: 4697 | Location: North Africa and North America | Registered: 05 July 2001

Ignored post by JohnTheGreek posted

raamw

one of us

posted

I don't believe speed has much to do with it, I took a 1600 pound bull bison at 75 yards with a 45-70. I handloaded and chronographed the following load:

400 grn D & J hard cast lead , 458 dia, 54.0 grains of Accurate #2700 which chrono'ed out of my 1895 marlin at an average of 1330 FPS.

The range was 75 yards, 1st shot angle going away into chest behind heavy shoulder hair... no obivous effect, 2nd shot same distance this time broadside behind front shoulder center in heavy fur area, spectacular effect, bull trembled, staggered about 5 yards and down for keeps. neither bullet did full penetration and was not able to inspect internal organs since the herd was in an agitated state. I would think any large caliber with hard cast lead in the 350 to 500 weight range traveling at least 1300 FPS would do the job provided shot placement is good. Sometimes those higher velocity rounds expand to fast and limit there penetration which would make a big difference if not hit in the righ place. I also saw a guy shoot a 800 pound cow bison with a 25-06 at about 60 yards in the heart and it staggerd on impact and went down almost immediately, figure that out.

Posts: 2305 | Location: Monee, Ill. USA | Registered: 11 April 2001

Ignored post by raamw posted

700 nitro

one of us

posted

i have taken 4 bison to date all with muzzel loaders

my first 1 was taken with a 75 caliber round ball and 200grs of ffg powder thats 660gr round ball at 1600 fps.
the shot was at 40 yards the bull bucked and ran 15 yards and was stone dead.

2-was shot with a custom 4 bore 1380grn round ball 450grs of fg powder for 1500 fps. bull just quit didnt go any where

3 was shot with a 62 caliber custom gun 325 grn ball 130grs of fffg powder 1600fps bull went 40 yards and piled up

4 was shot with a 2 bore elephant rifle 3500grn round ball 500 grs of fg powder for 1450-1500fps
17,000 foot pounds bull was knocked right off its feet.

Posts: 2095 | Location: B.C | Registered: 31 January 2002

Ignored post by 700 nitro posted

posted

4 was shot with a 2 bore elephant rifle 3500grn round ball 500 grs of fg powder for 1450-1500fps
17,000 foot pounds bull was knocked right off its feet.

As I assume you were as well?

700 nitro

one of us

posted

the 2 bore definatly has some kick but over the years i have learnd to control the recoil and its not really that bad but i do howerver limit my shots because recoil is still brutal.

Posts: 2095 | Location: B.C | Registered: 31 January 2002

Ignored post by 700 nitro posted

JohnTheGreek

One of Us

posted

Black-Powder,

Where did you take your Bison? Any tags out there for non-residents?

Thanks,

JohnTheGreek

Posts: 4697 | Location: North Africa and North America | Registered: 05 July 2001

Ignored post by JohnTheGreek posted

<500 AHR>

posted

I would have to agree with John the Greek. I do not believe you will get any reaction from a bison unless you hit him in the CNS (central nervous system). The 8, 4, or 2 bores will most likely be the only black powder contradictions to this statement.

I have shot 4 bison all with a 500 AHR shooting 570 grain Woodleigh soft points at 2440 fps. They all went right down hard on the first shot. All were head on heads shots. I did miss the brain on one BIG cow (1500 pounds) and she got up after about 30 seconds of massive bleeding on the ground. It took a second shot to finish her. My Brother-in-Law has shot one with a Springfield M1861 replica using a 58 caliber conical bullet. It was a heart shot and was unimpressive. The shot was fatal however, it just did not result in any reaction from the bison.

The 72 caliber Pedersoli double might be interesting if you could get a conical slug of say 800 grains or so up to 1400 fps. In short it takes some serious "knock down" power to put down a bison. In my experience at least, and I stress at least, as much as is required for cape buffalo.

One of Us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Todd the Story teller:
For the record I do not own a 416 Rigby, 500 AHR, 475 No2, or a 9.3X74R. I am not even much of a gun person.

Posts: 19677 | Location: New Mexico | Registered: 23 May 2002

Ignored post by Pecos41 posted

<500 AHR>

posted

Pecos,

Have you shot any bison with anything? If not why are you on this thread harassing me. I believe that everyone has the right to free speech, but I am willing to bet the individuals that ask these questions would prefer it very much if you would post something that is relavent to the subject at hand.

One of Us

posted

Todd - Why don't you start writing your lies down on paper so you can keep them straight.
The day before yesterday you were bragging about the 6 cape buffalo you "brain shot" at 100 yds.

Todd E. Lie #1

quote:
Originally posted by the always comical and seldom truthful Todd E.

I have shot 6 cape buffalo. I shot all of them with a 505 Gibbs made by Francotte. All but one were one shot kills. All shots were head on, ie face to face head shots (brain). The one exception was a screw up by me I missed the brain pan. The shot knocked the buff down, but he got back up...yadda, yadda

Now today you've decided it was maybe 4 bison, and of course they were all head shots as well. [Big Grin]

Todd E. Lie #2

quote:
Originally posted by Todd E with slight modifications to the story for our reading enjoyment.

I have shot 4 bison all with a 500 AHR shooting 570 grain Woodleigh soft points at 2440 fps. They all went right down hard on the first shot. All were head on heads shots. I did miss the brain on one BIG cow (1500 pounds) and she got up after about 30 seconds.

Does anyone see any similarities to these two yarns? [Big Grin]

And I apologize to everyone for not loaning Todd my digital camera so he could provide us pictures of these fine trophies. (I don't trust him to return it. [Eek!]

)

Todd, you see, has spent so much money on his "Francotte" and other exotic rifles that he simply can afford a camera. [Frown]

OR...maybe he doesn't need a camera. Maybe he just travels the world over, killing exotic and expensive animals for the fun of it and leaving them lay. [Confused]

Lifestyles of the rich and famous! [Big Grin]

[ 08-05-2002, 03:34: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

Posts: 19677 | Location: New Mexico | Registered: 23 May 2002

Ignored post by Pecos41 posted

<500 AHR>

posted

No lies Pecos. Two different rifles, two different decades, two different continents. Similar animals however from the perspective of absorbing punishment, however.

You really do not know me well do you. Nothing I have said here is new. It has all been recorded in earlier posts. See truth is easy. YOU really need to do some research on me that predates the BS confession post. I believe if you do this research you will realize how big an idiot you appear to be to all the old time posters here.

One of Us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Todd E:
You really do not know me well do you.

Hi Todd - I just got back from a pleasant evening with the wife...and in the back of my mind I've been thinking about you. THAT was stupid of me wasn't it? [Big Grin]

Sure pulled me up short to realize I'm wasting my time thinking of YOU! Damn, maybe I am an idiot? [Eek!]

Anyway, you're right Todd, I don't know you. Further, I don't WANT to know you. I don't have much use for people who lie and brag about crap they never did and try to pretend they are something they are not. So now you know what I think of you and I'm sure you don't have many warm fuzzies for me. OK. That's a cross I can bear. [Wink]

But the problem is not just Ole Pecos. It's not just ME that doesn't know you, Todd. Nobody on this website knows you because you've told so many lies so many different ways about who you are and who you aren't, what you've done and what you haven't done that NO ONE knows you for the great man I'm sure you are.

Had you ever thought about this little fact Todd? You try to act like Einstein one day and then act like Mary Queen of Scots the next and then you wonder why no one knows poor Todd E. Maybe this means I'm not the only idiot on the website, eh Todd?

So don't blame me for not knowing you. You're more slippery than an eel.

Anyway, I couldn't care less who or what you are.
I know everyone is about as sick of my vendetta to expose you as I am SICK of doing it.

I ernestly apologize to everyone whose time I've wasted. Henceforth they can form their own opinion of you. God has NOT called me to try and be your conscience.

Henceforth I don't care what sort of crap you post. The day you are all I've got to think about I'm going to go hang myself.

You can call this a glorious victory for the great Todd E. I don't care. I'm finished messing with you. You won, Todd. [Big Grin]

You tell everyone how you kicked my ass and I'll tell everyone how lucky I was to escape your superior intellect alive. [Smile]

I tip my hat to your great hunting prowess. I tremble before your beautiful explanation of headspace. You rule, Todd.

Maybe you can shoot a lion off me one day on the Serengeti...or in your wildlife stronghold of Cleveland. (Brain shot of course!)

Bye [Smile]

Posts: 19677 | Location: New Mexico | Registered: 23 May 2002

Ignored post by Pecos41 posted

<500 AHR>

posted

Pecos,

I am not sure what your problem is, but I appreciate you stopping your constant barrage of pointless argument. IF I had posted a mistruth in these last posts I would have to say you had every right to attack me. The problem is I have not lied in these recent posts, that you have pointlessly attacked me in.

To revert back to my old ways here is a test of your gun knowledge for you (I know the answer just curious if you do since you say you know so much). What is meant by the term "fires from an open bolt"? If you do not answer I understand. I have seen very little knowledge of firearms spoken by you in your previous posts. I sincerely hope that you stop with your know it all attacks on people and sit back and learn something.

One of Us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Todd E:
Pecos, to revert back to my old ways here is a test of your gun knowledge for you (I know the answer just curious if you do since you say you know so much). What is meant by the term "fires from an open bolt"? If you do not answer I understand. I have seen very little knowledge of firearms spoken by you in your previous posts. I sincerely hope that you stop with your know it all attacks on people and sit back and learn something.

Duh, let's see! The first gun that "fired from an open bolt" that I ever shot would be the Thompson Submachine Gun. I reckon the last one I've played with was the MAC-10. Most submachine guns have a fixed firing pin and function this way. Saves a lot of parts and machining too. Oddly enough, submachine guns are one of the easiest military weapons to manufacture. [Roll Eyes]

OK, enough games. Let's not replace one form of idiocy with another. Your "test questions" prove nothing to anyone nor did I come here to go back to the first grade. We could BOTH be a couple of idiots flipping thru our gun books trying to find something to dazzle the other. Our fellow members are not interested in this either, I'm afraid. Best thing you and I can do is just pretend one another doesn't exist.
Bye

[ 08-05-2002, 20:46: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

Posts: 19677 | Location: New Mexico | Registered: 23 May 2002

Ignored post by Pecos41 posted

<500 AHR>

posted

Pecos,

So submachine guns are the only weapons that fire from an open bolt?

One of Us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Pecos 45:
OK, enough games. Let's not replace one form of idiocy with another. Your "test questions" prove nothing to anyone nor did I come here to go back to the first grade. We could BOTH be a couple of idiots flipping thru our gun books trying to find something to dazzle the other. Our fellow members are not interested in this either, I'm afraid. Best thing you and I can do is just pretend one another doesn't exist.

If you've just got to have the last word, Todd E., go for it! I'm tired of playing silly buggers with you. I said I was ending this vendetta and I'm not remotely interested in playing Q&A with you till you finally dig up a question I can't answer. There are plenty of things I know about guns and hunting and reloading...after 46 years worth of doing it. And there are plenty of things I DON'T know. And, unlike you, I'm not ashamed to admit when I don't know something. My ego isn't threatened either way. [Big Grin]

Only a fool thinks he knows everything...about ANYTHING.

If it will help you, I'll make up a list of things I don't know and post them. This will save you all the trouble of trying to stump me.
Hell, I'll give you a topic for free...antique firearms. I don't know anything about 95% of them...was never interested...never owned one.
There. Happy now?

Frankly, I think we would both be better off to try to LEARN from this website than going around trying to find someone who knows less than we do so we can beat them up about it. Don't you agree Todd E.?

Posts: 19677 | Location: New Mexico | Registered: 23 May 2002

Ignored post by Pecos41 posted