First of all let me say �I DON"T WANT TO START A FIGHT".

Here is the set up. A guy is in Texas, on the Y.O. Ranch, a high fence ranch, in a treestand, with a bow, shoots an elk while the elk is eating from a corn feeder. Do you call this hunting?

I really don�t have a problem with hunting over bait if it�s legal and if it�s the local custom. Such as bear hunting, lion hunting or even deer hunting in some parts of the country. Even though we can�t hunt over bait in Alabama.

I even think there�s a place for hunting behind a high fence, such as hunting exotics, if the area fenced is large enough that it�s a fair chase hunt. How big is that? I guess that�s up to each person to decide. For me 500ac wouldn�t cut it, nor would a 1000, 5000ac sure I don�t see a problem with that if its not cross fenced.

But an elk? IMHO elk should be hunted in the Rockies, you should have to work for it. Not just pay your money and kill one under these conditions. To me killing an elk under these conditions is just cheating yourself and the elk. You haven�t walked, up hill, until your lungs burn. You haven�t seen the view from the top of the mountain, after working hard to get there only to find out the elk herd is half way up the next mountain. You�ve cheated yourself out of walking through the aspens and smelling the mountain air.
I�ve only elk hunted one time, but this isn�t elk hunting to me and I don�t understand it.

Some people don't have the time or patience to hunt elk the way you like to. That's my short answer to why.

Is it hunting? It dependes on how much work YOU do. If YOU scout the area thoroughly, ascertain travel routes, select an appropriate spot for an ambush, and then sweeten the deal with some corn, I'd have to say that's a hunt.

If, OTOH, YOU just pay someone to do all that, while you just show up to shoot, that's not hunting.

But that's just the way I see it. As long as it is legal, I have no leg to stand on.

If you own a farm, and have a herd of Herefords, and want to turn one of them into steaks, roasts, and chops, you can go out and shoot one with your trusty .338, if that's what you want to do.

I don't see why anyone would want to do that. But they could if that's what they wanted to do.

Sounds like the hunt you describe is about as interesting and fun as shooting a Hereford on a farm. It wouldn't interest me, but it might interest someone.

For me, msot of the fun of hunting is being out high in the mountains, feeling like you are on top of the world.

But any good scenery will do

IMHO, the scenery from a treestand over a corn feeder is lacking compared to high mountains.

But I really don't give a shit if that's your thing. Just don't try to tell me it was 'the hunt of a lifetime!'

Yeah, but if you lie to your high-class buddies that you shot a trophy hereford in the Montana wilderness, they aren't near as impressed...... LOL! Dutch.

I am from Texas and lived there for the first 35 years of my life. I, too, fail to understand how someone can shoot over a feeder and call it hunting. I tried it once and won't again. If all you need is venison for the freezer, then that's what you'll get. But don't try to convince me you're some kind of great hunter. Anyone can sit in a box or in a tree and shoot something. It just has to be closer to shoot it with an arrow.

My $0.02.

The only critters I've ever shot at a feeder were pigs. I go with a guy down in Texas where this is common. The area we hunt is composed of hills covered with cedar and mountain laurel. Thick stuff with plenty of hogs. I like to help scout around, figure out where the pigs are moving, set up feeders, fill em', arrange the stand, clear shooting lanes, and generally prepare for some pigs coming in. Then I hump my office-fattened ass up or across hills to sit in the stand and hopefully shoot a pig that doesn't wind me or otherwise outsmart me. Is this hunting? I like to think so. Is it hunting like we do in NM chasing elk around in the hills on thousands of acres of public land? No, but every place and species is different.

Of course, I prefer to corn a likely area for a pig, then put a sneak on him in the middle of the night, on the ground, in his element, not mine. It's still baiting, but it's a hell of a lot more entertaining! They don't call those rooters the "poor man's grizzly bear" for nothing. Someday I'll have to cowboy up and knife a big 'ol boar like some of those fellers down there do!

Oh yeah, forgot to say that I wouldn't be interested in "hunting" elk at a feeder. But if they get as wise as those old pigs do after a couple botched ambushes, it might at least be nice way to put some meat in the freezer. Beats the supermarket meat aisle...

[ 07-17-2003, 22:29: Message edited by: DesertRam ]

Would it be different if you set up on a water-hole for elk or pronghorn, or warthog in Africa?

While this would not be my preferred way to hunt anything, how is it different from the hundreds of thousands of eastern hunters who set their tree stands up over a game trail and shoot a buck that wonders by. Also, how is it different from shooting a buck in a food plot?

In any of these situations, you are entering the world of the animal, who has much better sight, hearing, and smell than you, and hoping that animal will get close enough to you for you to kill it. I think people make too much of high fences and corn and box blinds, etc. None of these will make a deer/elk stay in the area if it sees/smells/hears you.

My preferred method of hunting is spot/stalk, no doubt, but sometimes this just isn't feasible or possible. For you to tell me that sitting down under a tree and waiting for an animal to come by isn't hunting is pretty damned ignorant,IMO.

The waterhole example is I think, a good analogy. Is a waterhole the same as a feeder? what about a food plot? I don't know. I do agree with the fenced in area of the discussion though. Within limits of course. In Africa there are game preserves that are fenced in but they encompass hundreds of thousands of acres. jorge

Your mistake in this discussion is equating his trophy with a free range trophy. From the outside looking in, they look identical. He may have the antlers, and the mount, but he is missing the biggest part of the hunt, the experience. He can not get that with money.

He may have enjoyed his Elk hunt at the YO, but I will bet anyday that anyone here who has taken an Elk in the wild has something that this guy will never have with his Elk.

Is it wrong? No, just different.

"For you to tell me that sitting down under a tree and waiting for an animal to come by isn't hunting is pretty damned ignorant,IMO."

TrademarkTexan,
I said "this isn�t elk hunting to ME". You can hunt elk anyway you want but I have no plans to kill an elk this way any time soon.

As to treestands, I live and hunt in Alabama, I own at least 8 or more. We also plant and hunt green fields, maybe thats wrong. I guess on one hand to me it's more the fact that its an elk. If the guy had shot a deer I wouldn't have had as much of a problem with it. Why? I'm not sure. This just isn't the way "I" want to shoot an elk.

I had the same problem last fall with Antelope hunting. I wasn't going to shoot one off the hood of the outfitters truck. Some people do and if YOU want to more power to you and yours, but I couldn't do. I pasted up the best buck I saw because of that, I took a smaller one on the last day. But I got a hunt out of it and have the thorns to prove it Thats what I wanted.

[ 07-17-2003, 23:22: Message edited by: mark65x55 ]

Well said Wendell. The best thoughts on this I've heard yet and something to think about.

I know the YO ranch as my families place is about 40 miles away. I'll tell you what, the hunt may not sound like much but the drive there at night can be damned unnerving. I would wager there are more deer killed on that road at night than on any road , anywhere in the world!! My daddy has hit two this year and I clipped one and my Mother refuses to drive that road at night. Hmm never seen any elk tho'. Guess they're not good at hopping fences or that easy feed is too good to leave.

What about outfitters who pack in hundreds of pounds of rock salt to create a huge salt lick in the wilderness area of a national forest just about a hundred yards south of Yellowstone National Park then sit their clients up in a blind to shoot elk that come to the lick. Do you think that is sportsman like and is that hunting?

Oh and "baiting" elk is illegal in Wyoming.

I was going to post something like this the other day. Last year I think it was I was watching a tv show and they were showing a hunt, I think in Texas. These guys were wearing all this camo gear and they got into this blind (a permanent one out of wood I think). They were all excited waiting for the deer to come out into this field where deer feed or something was planted and the deer always came to eat. They just waited till a few came out for food, decided which one to take, and shot it.

This seemed totally pointless to me. I have only been hunting for a couple of years, and have not gotten anything yet. but hunt pretty hard and enjoy the time anyways. If somebody came to me and offered me a prepaid hunt like that one I would probably kick them square in the ass.

What upset me the most about it was that they were really jacked up and excited about it and I found it stupid to wear camo if you are in a totally enclosed space shooting at tame game. Why not make it more interesting, don't wear camo, don't use the blind, try hiding in the middle of the field and killing the deer.

Am I just weird for find this offensive? Does anybody here get excited by something that like this?

As far as the elk over bait, not what I would like myself, but doesn't get me real upset. Like some have said, if you do your scouting and find their haunts and figure out that much then set the bait and wait that makes good sense to me. I've tried the same damn Buck the last two years and he's too damn smart, lives in a real hard spot to stalk him in. Finally moving to a different spot and I have scouted it and have a rock outcropping about 50 yards from a well used trail that I am just going to sit and glass from.

Red (sorry I vented a bit guys)

If you live in Texas long enough you will call it hunting, because that is what everyone else there calls it. Maybe it is in a way if you have multiple feeder/blind options and pick one based on a number of factors.

I see no difference between shooting an elk under a feeder that should have been in Colorado, or an Axis Deer under a feeder that should have been in India.

You seem to have heartburn that it's an elk. I don't find an elk more special than a kudu or a gemsbok, or a axis deer, or a sika. They are all great game animals. You can either cope with blind/feeder hunting or you can't.

My guess is that if you were invited to hunt that way you would go just like 99% of the people on this website. I don't think you would have any real scruples if something legal walked up and started eating that corn. You would shoot it, get your photo taken and brag to your friends about your hunt.

I've never paid money to hunt that way, but I might some day.

I don't hunt elk in New Mexico, mule deer in Colorado, antelope in West Texas, kudu in RSA, and sheep in the NWTs to have it easy, but I'm not stupid either. I don't have to walk twenty miles and swim a raging river to feel like a hairy-chested man. I hunt smart, at least I do now.

You remind me of me. Thirty-five years ago I spotted a great pronghorn buck. I tried to ambush him for more than two hours. I couldn't find a way to him without him moving off. He was wearing me out. He finally left the basin and headed up a draw into the hills. I got back to my vehicle, drove the three miles around to the top, and took off hoofing it to get to the head of the draw. I got there just in time to hear a gun go off.

When I worked my way down the hill, I found my buck with an older hunter standing over him. He'd watched my efforts for an hour or so in the flat, watched the buck outsmart me, and make its move to the draw, and then the older hunter beat me there with the ambush.

My lungs were burning. I saw the view from the top of the mountain. I smelled the mountain air. I also wasn't very smart.

You come up that hill 'til your lungs burn. I'll be the old son-of-a-bitch gutting your bull when you get to the top.

Age and experience will make you a better hunter, and make you more tolerant of how other people hunt.

Boy Ken, your post was sure worth a chuckle! Don't worry though, my old man will be the other old SOB beating us yunguns to it. You echo what he's told me since I started hunting: "Hunt (or work) with your head, not your back."

Use your head and use what you have to hunt with... If you have a nice 30-06 use it if you have a salt block use it if you have a feed plot use it if you have a tank for godsakes use it -_-.... Animals have been useing them for god knows how long waiting at a watering hole a natral salt lick or others. What set's us apart from are Other hunting compation is that we have the smarts.

Each area of the entire world has evolved it's own method of hunting. Each is different and unique to a specific area. Each hunting method is derived from years of experience of hunting a particular area.

I hear a lot of criticisim of Texas hunting. Most of it by people with little Texas hunting experience.

Did anyone ever stop to think "Why do they hunt that way?"

It is not because Texans are lazy, or because we do not want to hunt any other way. It is because that is the most productive method of hunting in this particular type of country. It is just about the only way you can ever be successful on (most) Texas Deer hunts.

Now, there are a lot areas of Texas where a spot and stalk hunt is an option. But most of the hill country, Central Texas and brush country of South Texas, it is not an option. Our Mesquite brush here prevents a hunter from using methods that other people deem "acceptable" in other areas.

Where is it written that you must work hard and walk "x" number of miles to make your quest a true hunt? A cat will wait in ambush, why can't a hunter?

A falacy in the arguments of self-proclaimed hunting purist is that one must walk, climb and stalk for it to be a hunt. This is just not true.

I will agree that it is more fun to spot and stalk your game than to wait for it to come to you. But sometimes, you just have to abandon the way you did it "back home" and adopt the local methods. Always keeping in mind. "There is a reason they hunt this way here."

[ 07-18-2003, 03:13: Message edited by: Wendell Reich ]

"You seem to have heartburn that it's an elk." Well, yes and no. I mean, why shoot an elk over a feeder, behind a fence, in Texas when you can hunt one in the wild? I have no more plans to do that than shoot a moose or caribou under these conditions. If tags are available, land use and transportation isn't a problem why hunt on a ranch when you can hunt free range animals?

"My guess is that if you were invited to hunt that way you would go just like 99% of the people on this website." Not if I can hunt it under free range fair chase conditions. I've spent/lost a fair size amout of money on principle. Send me a check for one these hunts it'll be like putting it in the bank, I just want pay you interest

[ 07-18-2003, 15:14: Message edited by: mark65x55 ]

When I read the initial post of this thread, I thought to myself that the guy should have just gone to McDonald's. It's cheaper and more convenient without all the climbing, you know. Plus they take checks.

I think Wendell has hit the nail on the head though. When our concept of what constitutes fair play in the hunting fields was forged, there was probably much more game available and less of the encroachment of civilization into their habitat.

Nowadays shots are taken from longer distances, game is a bit tougher to find, we're killing deer earlier in their lives, etc. I read somewhere about ducks having to give birth in their second year instead of their third (third year being normal?).

It would sure be nice to encounter game populations like those hunted several generations ago. Since that's not going to happen I suppose we should modify in some way what we consider to be ethical pursuit to a model more relevant to our times.

Paul

Most of Allen Warren's hunts on the outdoor channel, are Texas feeder hunts. Texas is not on my list to hunt, except for Aoudad, and west texas mulies. I get asked on texas deer hunts alot, and always turn down.

"I don't understand this."

Neither do I.

Hunting is not the same as just showing up and shooting. Hunting involves the wise employment of a set of skills that one develops and learns over years of study and experience. Hunting requires that one go to the animal, where it lives. It is not hunting to bring a non-native animal to one's backyard, feed it for a while and then shoot it.

I'm sorely tempted to call what you have described exactly what it is, but in order to avoid insulting anyone, I won't do that. Instead I'll tell you what it isn't.

It isn't hunting.

Anyone who has butchered a steer, or a hog, or other farm animal, recognizes the activity portrayed in the first post as just what it is, killing an animal for the slaughter. Some of my most successfull hunts ended empty handed, because the killing of the animal was way down the list of what was important about hunt. There is no need to explain that to the hunters, and no possibilty of explaining it to the nonhunters. I have no objection to the events as protrayed, but I could never call that hunting. It appeals to some ego's possibly. Unfortunately, it is as close to hunting as many can get. For some, their life is in the remembering, not the reality. I used to open the back door, shoot a nice whitetail in the orchard, dress, cut, freeze it. That was not hunting, it might be called harvesting, but not hunting. Hunting was the 6X6 Bull Elk I saw fleetingly all day one fall west of Easton, Washington, but never got a clean shot. Hunting was the big buck I tracked all day down in the South Hills of Idaho, only to have him shot by another hunter while I was about 40 feet away from the deer in the brush. I didn't get the deer, but I had a great day hunting, and got to do it all over again several more times that season, one weekend with almost a foot of snow on the ground, great weekend, again no deer. To me, the killing of the animal is not a requirement for me to have enjoyed the hunt. Neither does it detract from a good hunt, in many ways it is a fitting end to a great hunt. But, that is just me, I know many that would gladly "hunt" in the manner described in the first post, and have some really good "hunting" stories to tell, also. Still is not hunting to me.

The older I get, the more I realise how true the old saying is - "it's all fun until you pull the trigger, but from then on it's just hard work."

I find I'm enjoying the hunting more, and the shooting less. If I get a moose, that's great. Having grown up on moose meat, it's still about the only thing I feel 'well fed' on. If I don't get a moose, that's great too. I get to spend a few days in the bush, I don't have to bust my hump packing out hind quarters, and I get to go again. Either way, I'm never disappointed!

I just realised my response was off topic. I guess that's another sign of age. I've never actually seen one of those feeders, so I really can't comment on them. Seems like it would take the fun out of it, though...

[ 07-19-2003, 21:41: Message edited by: Tumbleweed ]

You can call it what you want, but it's shooting to me not hunting.

So sant it the same as hunting over a water hole/game trial or a feeding spot? becuse i hunt the last two be it a deer trail or be it a mixed clover feild.

Wendell called it pretty well. There is a reason that most, say 98% at least of the 400,000 plus Whitetails killed in Texas each year are shot out of stands. Most of the people who don't call it hunting are a)not from Texas and b) don't normally hunt on leased land. If they did, they would understand, if they don't it is not worth trying to explain it. An elk on a game ranch in Texas is probably not going to fit my definition of fair chase, but certainly many of the exotics here do. But so what, he got to shoot an elk, and he got the meat, I suppose. There are worse things done every day. My suggestion to all is to hunt the way you like, as long as it is legal, and let those of us who happen to enjoy stand hunting do it our way. Call it shooting, call it hunting, doesn't matter to me, I'm not you and I decide what is fair and fun for me. Hopefully you will do the same.

8mm, well said!

Gatogordo
I've got no problem with stand hunting Like I said I own at least 8. If your hunt free range deer its a lot of work. You can't just hang a stand in any old tree and see a deer. You've got to work at it by scouting, some of us do it year round. I don't turkey hunt because I'm scouting for the next deer season.

[ 07-20-2003, 01:37: Message edited by: mark65x55 ]

Its real simple,the whole reason this slob is at the Y.O. is because he's to lazy to hunt. He wants 100% success and knows full well his lazy ass isn't capable of hunting under fair chase conditions on public land,since he has a terminal case of ass planters disease and hasn't caught site of his dick past his gut, in the last 20 years.

Any time you have to stop and ask yourself if its hunting,you've just answered your own question.It's not hunting.

I've never met anyone that honestly went out on open public land or even a regular style ranch and busted ass chasing wild elk, that had to question wether they were hunting or not. But you have these limp dicks on zoo hunts always checking their conscience,wether they admit it or not.

Personally,spot and stalk and still hunting is the truest form of hunting,because its by far the most demanding and stacks the most odds against the hunter. Next easiest is setting up in a ground blind,your still on the ground in level with an animals vision and nose,but you're staying motionless and not making noise by moving. Then comes tree stands,a huge level of advantage is given to the hunter.The higher in the tree you go the less detection you recieve from an animal both scent and site wise. A prime example of the advantage that tree stands give,is evident in the rise of success that people in michigan saw when tree stands were legalized in the early 1960's.In some cases the harvest success doubled. I've killed my largest whitetails out of treestands and without a duobt a high percentage of my success was due to the stand. I'd have spent twice as much time hunting the same whitetails on the ground and may never have killed them,since the odds would be stacked in their favor. Drives are next in line. It comes down to quick shooting and wether you picked the right spot to stand while your buddies bird dog everything by. Bait hunts are on par with prairie dog shoots,its nothing but shooting.

[ 07-20-2003, 04:11: Message edited by: RMK ]

My dictionary defines HUNTING as "The pursuit of game."

It doesn't mention whether the game has to be actually taken.

It also makes no reference to "sitting on your ass and shooting at animals," so I guess that is different.

To each his own i hunt 160-170 acre's each year spot stalk,still hunting,Bow hunting from my tree stand over game trails or over clover field. If there's a problem with that then so be it. Also does scent's Count as bait? If so im guilty as charged on that.

...hunting the Y.O. ranch's "fenced in fields" is probably not what you visualize. That ranch is BIG....
This whole topic is similar to the guy who calls everyone driving slower than him an idiot, and everyone driving faster than him a maniac.
If you think it's not hunting if you aren't humping it over hill and dale for 3 days before you almost get a shot.... more power to you. But what about the guys that say if you use a firearm, it's not really hunting... gotta use a bow to be a real hunter. Then, it's gotta be a primitive bow, not a compound... oh, and you have to make your own arrows.
How far back do we have to go to be "hunting"?
Oh, and how many of you go prarie-dog hunting? The only "hunting" involved in that endeavor is finding the dog town.... after that it's just prarie-dog SHOOTING.
If you've never tried to hunt through the thickets in Texas, where water holes might be several miles apart... and food is pretty scarce, I suggest you don't know what you are talking about. Nobody that I know of likes the idea of a "canned hunt".... but setting out feeders and blinds is about the only way you'll get a deer in many parts of Texas.

That's ok brad,generally you're sucking ass around here.

Suppose you are aged and infirm, you sit at night in a tree waiting to shoot a giant hog over bait or at a waterhole because you can�t pursue him anymore. You are freezing when suddenly a shadow appears, the beast is playing hide and seek. Finally you shoot and it runs and stop. You got a lantern in one hand and the heavy gun in the other...after that you find blood and hear an ominous sound. Your heart races wildly...may I ask if are you hunting?.
I�ll hunt on my crippled knees until death comes. The prey is the hunter�s soul gentlemen and not a beast.